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[Pistolized]

At the end of the game it is clear that the Chantry has lost power and lots of places are falling into chaos.  Does that include the Tevinter Chantry and nation.  It seems to me that Tevinter would not be as affected and even thrive as a conqueror. 

Edit: spelling

Modifié par Pistolized, 08 octobre 2011 - 02:41 .

[TheJediSaint]

The Tevinter Chantry is a completely separate entity from the main Chantry and would not be affected by the Mage Templar war.  However, I don't think that means that Tevinter is in a position of strength over the rest of Thedas, as they are occupied dealing with the Qunari. If anything, it's the Qunari who everyone should be worried about.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 07 octobre 2011 - 07:49 .

[caradoc2000]

Also, as mages aren't oppressed in Tevinter (quite the opposite in fact), there is no such cause for conflict between the mages and the Tevinter Chantry.

[TheJediSaint]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Also, as mages aren't oppressed in Tevinter (quite the opposite in fact), there is no such cause for conflict between the mages and the Tevinter Chantry.

Oh Mages are still oppressed in Tevinter.  It's just by other mages, that is.

[caradoc2000]

They can oppress back.

[Gervaise]

The Tevinter Chantry has a whole different ethos to the rest of Thedas (or so we're told). There the Templars serve the Circle of Magi - I believe Fenris says they help track down dissidents against the ruling Elite, who are the Magisters, the top ranking mages, who come from long standing noble mage families. The only thing I can see happening there is that they would be monitoring any mage refugees fairly closely to ensure that no potential troublemakers are allowed to infiltrate the lower ranks. They might also take the opportunity to send their own agents in the opposite direction, to help build alliances that benefit Tevinter - not necessarily pro mage freedom. If you believe Fenris, it is Tevinter who helped motivate the Resolutionists - whose agenda was to strike terror into those who opposed them (read the codex about this) by showing that the Chantry controlled Circle was really no protection - the idea being presumably to show that people would be better off if mages were free to regulate themselves. That sound suspiciously close to the sort of arguments that the Tevinter might make.

As for the Orlais sponsored Chantry and its branches throughout Thedas, whilst controlling mages is part of the remit, it was never the primary one - spreading the faith and assisting the widows, orphans and other deserving cases. Just because the mages are running wild does not automatically mean the populace will lose faith in the Chantry - rather the reverse since the mages used violence against a much loved Grand Cleric to further their cause and I presume from the codex that Elthina wasn't the first to be attacked (though probably the first to be blown up along with her Chantry) by apostate mages. This would just reinforce the Chantry's doctrine that mages are dangerous and cannot be trusted free in the community. The Templars going rogue might present more of a problem to faith but not an insummountable one, so long as they focus on rounding up mages and don't start abusing the general population. The Chantry will only really lose its grip if the nobility should decide to cut their ties with it and as yet there is no evidence of any significant moves in that direction - the nearest you get is if King Alistair is on the throne and even he says he dare not risk it whilst Orlais is looking for an excuse to reinvade. No doubt all will be made clearer in DA3

[Heimdall]

My prediction for DA3:

All of Thedas has gone to hell in a hand basket as the Mage-Templar War ravages the country side, the Qunari invade full force, and the Sixth Blight crops up. You [DA3 protagonist] must prove yourself more awesome than Hawke and the Warden combined to defeat these horrors and save Thedas!

[Finnish Dragon]

Lord Aesir wrote...

My prediction for DA3:

All of Thedas has gone to hell in a hand basket as the Mage-Templar War ravages the country side, the Qunari invade full force, and the Sixth Blight crops up. You [DA3 protagonist] must prove yourself more awesome than Hawke and the Warden combined to defeat these horrors and save Thedas!

I would add a power struggle between the Chantry and the secular rulers of Thedas to that equation. Chantry is probably pretty rich and powerful and the secular rulers want to diminish the Chantry. If that happens then it could lead to a Reformation in Thedas.

[Heimdall]

Finnish Dragon wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

My prediction for DA3:

All of Thedas has gone to hell in a hand basket as the Mage-Templar War ravages the country side, the Qunari invade full force, and the Sixth Blight crops up. You [DA3 protagonist] must prove yourself more awesome than Hawke and the Warden combined to defeat these horrors and save Thedas!

I would add a power struggle between the Chantry and the secular rulers of Thedas to that equation. Chantry is probably pretty rich and powerful and the secular rulers want to diminish the Chantry. If that happens then it could lead to a Reformation in Thedas.

I imagine the secular rulers of Thedas will have enough on their plates.  Some of  them, like the Empress of Orlais, probably wouldn't given that the Chantry is part of how they retain legitimacy.  Stirring up that kind of fight would likely put the subjects of those rulers in rebellion.  At most, I might see someone try pulling a Henry the VIII and appoint themselves head of the local chantry.

[Cobra's_back]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Finnish Dragon wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

My prediction for DA3:

All of Thedas has gone to hell in a hand basket as the Mage-Templar War ravages the country side, the Qunari invade full force, and the Sixth Blight crops up. You [DA3 protagonist] must prove yourself more awesome than Hawke and the Warden combined to defeat these horrors and save Thedas!

I would add a power struggle between the Chantry and the secular rulers of Thedas to that equation. Chantry is probably pretty rich and powerful and the secular rulers want to diminish the Chantry. If that happens then it could lead to a Reformation in Thedas.

I imagine the secular rulers of Thedas will have enough on their plates.  Some of  them, like the Empress of Orlais, probably wouldn't given that the Chantry is part of how they retain legitimacy.  Stirring up that kind of fight would likely put the subjects of those rulers in rebellion.  At most, I might see someone try pulling a Henry the VIII and appoint themselves head of the local chantry.

I second that opinion. I would certainly love to see Ferelden pull away and make their own Chantry. After all, the Orlesian Mother Bronach anointed tyrant Meghren the King of Ferelden. Everyone hated him.
 

[Meyne]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Finnish Dragon wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

My prediction for DA3:

All of Thedas has gone to hell in a hand basket as the Mage-Templar War ravages the country side, the Qunari invade full force, and the Sixth Blight crops up. You [DA3 protagonist] must prove yourself more awesome than Hawke and the Warden combined to defeat these horrors and save Thedas!

I would add a power struggle between the Chantry and the secular rulers of Thedas to that equation. Chantry is probably pretty rich and powerful and the secular rulers want to diminish the Chantry. If that happens then it could lead to a Reformation in Thedas.

I imagine the secular rulers of Thedas will have enough on their plates.  Some of  them, like the Empress of Orlais, probably wouldn't given that the Chantry is part of how they retain legitimacy.  Stirring up that kind of fight would likely put the subjects of those rulers in rebellion.  At most, I might see someone try pulling a Henry the VIII and appoint themselves head of the local chantry.

I second that opinion. I would certainly love to see Ferelden pull away and make their own Chantry. After all, the Orlesian Mother Bronach anointed tyrant Meghren the King of Ferelden. Everyone hated him.
 

And Fereldan IS Andraste's birthplace...

[Gervaise]

To do a Henry VIII, Ferelden would only declare independence from the Chantry if threatened with an Exalted March because their monarch wasn't the one approved of by the Divine in Orlais. So far as I am aware that is not the case since the equivalent of excommunication doesn't exist in Thedas. Alistair was treading carefully about declaring an independent Circle because of possible backlash from his hostile neighbours and the fact that Ferelden was still weakened after the Blight. Anora was unlikely to even go that far with mage sympathies, though her father did use the carrot of an independent Circle to get Ulrich on his side.

Outside of Orlais (and Kirkwall), the Chantry has very little real political power - it is entirely dependent on the goodwill of the ruling elite and popular affection of the general population. Which is why it is far more influential in countries like the Anderfels, the Freemarches, Orlais and Ferelden and less so in places like Rivain. The situation of the mages goes along with this - the ruling elite would not wish to give mages too much power in case this threatened their own status. Each ruler knows that if they started building up a mage powerbase independent of the Chantry, the neighbours would turn on them out of self interest. Attacking the Chantry is counterproductive since it would cause a great deal of unrest among the faithful and might actually inspire a popular revolt (think the pilgrimage of grace in England which might well have succeeded had Henry VIII not been such a devious bastard). I don't think the Chantry does have sufficient wealth and land holdings to make it possible to bribe the ruling class into opposing it.. If someone wants to replace the Chantry, they first have to win the hearts and minds of the faithful, rulers and peasants alike, which is unlikely without another Andraste following on a monumental disaster like the First Blight.

[Cobra's_back]

Meyne wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Finnish Dragon wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

My prediction for DA3:

All of Thedas has gone to hell in a hand basket as the Mage-Templar War ravages the country side, the Qunari invade full force, and the Sixth Blight crops up. You [DA3 protagonist] must prove yourself more awesome than Hawke and the Warden combined to defeat these horrors and save Thedas!

I would add a power struggle between the Chantry and the secular rulers of Thedas to that equation. Chantry is probably pretty rich and powerful and the secular rulers want to diminish the Chantry. If that happens then it could lead to a Reformation in Thedas.

I imagine the secular rulers of Thedas will have enough on their plates.  Some of  them, like the Empress of Orlais, probably wouldn't given that the Chantry is part of how they retain legitimacy.  Stirring up that kind of fight would likely put the subjects of those rulers in rebellion.  At most, I might see someone try pulling a Henry the VIII and appoint themselves head of the local chantry.

I second that opinion. I would certainly love to see Ferelden pull away and make their own Chantry. After all, the Orlesian Mother Bronach anointed tyrant Meghren the King of Ferelden. Everyone hated him.
 

And Fereldan IS Andraste's birthplace...

You are correct. This is what makes it ideal. The Church of England was still Christian.

[Cobra's_back]

Gervaise wrote...

To do a Henry VIII, Ferelden would only declare independence from the Chantry if threatened with an Exalted March because their monarch wasn't the one approved of by the Divine in Orlais. So far as I am aware that is not the case since the equivalent of excommunication doesn't exist in Thedas. Alistair was treading carefully about declaring an independent Circle because of possible backlash from his hostile neighbours and the fact that Ferelden was still weakened after the Blight. Anora was unlikely to even go that far with mage sympathies, though her father did use the carrot of an independent Circle to get Ulrich on his side.

Outside of Orlais (and Kirkwall), the Chantry has very little real political power - it is entirely dependent on the goodwill of the ruling elite and popular affection of the general population. Which is why it is far more influential in countries like the Anderfels, the Freemarches, Orlais and Ferelden and less so in places like Rivain. The situation of the mages goes along with this - the ruling elite would not wish to give mages too much power in case this threatened their own status. Each ruler knows that if they started building up a mage powerbase independent of the Chantry, the neighbours would turn on them out of self interest. Attacking the Chantry is counterproductive since it would cause a great deal of unrest among the faithful and might actually inspire a popular revolt (think the pilgrimage of grace in England which might well have succeeded had Henry VIII not been such a devious bastard). I don't think the Chantry does have sufficient wealth and land holdings to make it possible to bribe the ruling class into opposing it.. If someone wants to replace the Chantry, they first have to win the hearts and minds of the faithful, rulers and peasants alike, which is unlikely without another Andraste following on a monumental disaster like the First Blight.

In the Book "The Stolen Throne" the Chantry gave the Ferelden people reason to mistrust. Loghain made the comment that the Orlesian Mother changed her mind like the wind. I'm not suggesting that Ferelden would attack the Chantry. I'm suggesting that if there is a vacuum because of the war, the Fereldens could maintain their own church. Should they wait to hear from the Val Royeaux Orlesian or should they build their own? If it is broken should they not fix it? It was my impression reading the book that the Fereldens are a hardy group of people who do not bend easy. Alistair told my Hawke he was expecting trouble with the Orlesian.
Martin Luther didn’t leave the Holy Roman Catholic Church for personal advancement. He left because he translated the Bible and saw it differently. Now I can’t remember history real well please HELP. Didn’t German nobility back him up? I’m not Lutheran, but wasn’t he part of the Protestant Reformation.
I’m hoping at least that the Fereldens become the people who could reform things in a good way.

[naledgeborn]

caradoc2000 wrote...

They can oppress back.

Not really. If you read DA:O's codex some mages are so "weak" that they could barely light a candle on fire. These are the poor bastards I feel for when I think about "oppressed" circle mages. So I suspect even though they're "mages" these folk would be at the bottom of the food chain... like slaves in Tevinter.

[Cobra's_back]

Gervaise wrote...
"If someone wants to replace the Chantry, they first have to win the hearts and minds of the faithful, rulers and peasants alike, which is unlikely without another Andraste following on a monumental disaster like the First Blight."

Sometimes I think I'm not clear enough. Please forgive me. Ferelden wouldn't have to get rid of Andraste. Hell she was born there. Just like Martin you make changes according to how you interpret the information.

[Meyne]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Meyne wrote...

And Fereldan IS Andraste's birthplace...

You are correct. This is what makes it ideal. The Church of England was still Christian.

Indeed.  So the people of Fereldan would not necessiarly be terribly opposed to such a break, especially since the current setup has those "jerk" Orlesians in charge, the same people that tried to take their kingdom from them.  "What would they know of Andraste, she's Fereldan!" people would counter.  And if the Fereldan Chantry is much more in line of what other countries find beneficial to them, then you'll get a real reformation.

And I wouldn't doubt that even if the Tevinter Chantry isn't terribly for the Fereldan one, they'd still use its break with the Orlesian one as a way to legitimize themselves further and stretch out influence.