20 réponses à ce sujet

[ARKdeEREH]

Also, what type of character did you have?

1.) Mine was the Drow Full plate +5, which gave my PC a -15 armor class.
2.) My best armor class that worked outside the Underdark was the Red Dragon armor I got from killing Firkraag, it was -12
3.) My PC is a dual fighter/mage. The best armor he has that will still allow him to use spells is Sylvan Chain +2, which with the Darksteel Shield +4 gives him an armor class of -8.

[Son of Imoen]

It was Full Plate +1 and it could hardly have been better, as you've asked your question in the BG1-subforum.

[ncknck]

Highest AC is well over 30. Perhaps 40. Base AC 24 + 4 from armor mod + 4 from invisibility, +X from spells. Thats an AC of 32+X. The exact number varies due to uncertainty of how spells work and what creatures are affected. The "best" example is stacking blindness sources, even though a creature can only get blind once.

[AnonymousHero]

There is a hard cap of -20 AC. You can get higher via DEX bonus (max +6 with 25 DEX). You can also get slightly higher via "+AC to weapon type X" modifiers.

I can't recall whether Imp. Invis. also stacks onto that.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

ARKdeEREH wrote...
Also, what type of character did you have?

modded
some components from IR, aTweaks, SCS. Viconia (lvl1NPCs to CT).
Jansen AdventureWear (not IR affected)
Total effect:
100% Physical Resistance
100% Magic Resistance
(also used a selfscribed scroll of Spell Immunity: Abjuration)

Who cares about AC these days?

1.) Mine was the Drow Full plate +5, which gave my PC a -15 armor class.

Big Metal Unit

3.) My PC is a dual fighter/mage. The best armor he has that will still allow him to use spells is Sylvan Chain +2, which with the Darksteel Shield +4 gives him an armor class of -8.

Use more spells for protection. Don't use shields for the AC in advanced BG2.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

AnonymousHero wrote...

There is a hard cap of -20 AC. You can get higher via DEX bonus (max +6 with 25 DEX). You can also get slightly higher via "+AC to weapon type X" modifiers.

I was always under the impression the cap was -24 and you got an extra 1 or 2 points for single weapon style.

[AnonymousHero]

Hm... maybe you're right. It's been a while...

[ncknck]

AnonymousHero wrote...

There is a hard cap of -20 AC. You can get higher via DEX bonus (max +6 with 25 DEX). You can also get slightly higher via "+AC to weapon type X" modifiers.

I can't recall whether Imp. Invis. also stacks onto that.

a hard cap usually means it impossible for the AC to go higher, which is clearly not the case here. While a displayed AC is capped indeed, there are a lot of  working modifiers not adding to that number, like the armor mod. Or ignoring it completely, like improved invisibility. Regular Tob enemies have a thac0 of zero, so with AC of 20+ one is pretty much invincible against anything melee but bosses.

Modifié par ncknck, 08 octobre 2011 - 09:48 .

[AnonymousHero]

ncknck wrote...

AnonymousHero wrote...

There is a hard cap of -20 AC. You can get higher via DEX bonus (max +6 with 25 DEX). You can also get slightly higher via "+AC to weapon type X" modifiers.

I can't recall whether Imp. Invis. also stacks onto that.

a hard cap usually means it impossible for the AC to go higher, which is clearly not the case here.

I suppose I should have been more precise. "Base AC" is hard capped at (whatever).

[ncknck]

imp inv works like this: enemies get a penalty of 4 to their attack rolls. Now consider things like prayer or glitterdust and it quickly gets into another 10 effective AC boost, while not affecting the character itself. The funny thing is that invisibility and blindness most probably stack, while it is technically the same thing, heh.

Modifié par ncknck, 08 octobre 2011 - 09:55 .

[ARKdeEREH]

I didn't realize spells could be used to improve armor class!  What are some of the better ones that do that?

Someone said something about invisibility and blindness.  I can understand how those would make it more difficult for an opponent to detect you, but how do they improve armor class?  I would think that an invisible character could still be dealt the same amount of damage once detected, or with spells that target an area instead of the person.   

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Improved Invisibility keeps you partially invisible even after you have attacked somebody, so the enemy has still trouble seeing you even though they CAN attack you now, so they receive a -4 penalty to their attack rolls. (the penalty for blindness in the unhacked game is -10)
The most important spells for your FM are Stoneskin (level 4) and Protection from Magical Weapons (level 6) and also Mirror Image (level 2), because the latter also protects you against area of effect spells.
AC can easily be improved with Spirit Armor, Blur and afore mentioned Improved Invisibility.

[ncknck]

Here are some area party ac spells and abilities, but there is quite a bit more..

HLA bard song +4
Mass imp invisibility +4 
protection from evil +2
Defensive Harmony +2

And also i agree with Humanoid_Taifun, a mage multiclass doesnt need AC, there are alot of caster only spells which negate incoming damage completely, like stoneskin, or mirror image. Much better. Tensers perhaps too, in a way.

Modifié par ncknck, 08 octobre 2011 - 10:29 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Tensers is a spell I would never use. I find idea of making myself unable to cast another PfMW a bit "odd". Things can go badly in battle, and when that happens you want to be able to react. Tensers doesn't allow that.

The best protection for a beginner (in terms of spell system, not game) is a good offense. If you can kill the enemy before they can hurt you, your defense is perfect. With that in mind, the best protective gear for your FM is the Robe of Vecna, because it allows you to cast a Fireball or a Death Spell immediately (= without casting time).
Stoneskin and PfMW would only require the Amulet of Power for instant casting. (which is reaaally useful when you're taking a beating and even a casting time of 1 second* means you get interrupted).

*or rather 2/3 of a second, IIRC...

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 08 octobre 2011 - 04:52 .

[ncknck]

Depends. For caster FM its obviously not that great. For melee FM once buffed, he doesnt really need to cast anything else, just hack away. And twice the health helps.

In any case i have yet to cast PfMW in my games, its effect is just too short. Cant be used as a prebuff, big problem. As you said, the best defence is good offence. Well.. And there is little reason to spend a whole casting combat round to gain immunity to melee for 4 rounds, instead of casting that.. fireball. and another stoneskin or MI will do the same and cheaper.

I can see its use if tanking swamps. But thats the High-AC tank job *returns to topic* and costs nothing.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Let's compare statements.

ncknck wrote...

• For melee FM once buffed, he doesnt really need to cast anything else[...].
• And twice the health helps.

If you need more HP, then obviously your defense isn't perfect, and thus more defensive spells are definitely useful.

In any case i have yet to cast PfMW in my games, its effect is just too short. Cant be used as a prebuff, big problem.

You underestimate 24 seconds. You can do a lot in that time. The enemy as well.

instead of casting that.. fireball.

Not every enemy is put down with one spell.

and another stoneskin or MI will do the same and cheaper.

Not always. For example against mind flayers of vampires Stoneskin and MI do next to nothing. And against opponents with good APR...

[ncknck]

Heh, exactly. But Tensers is a defensive spell, PfWM prevents health of dropping below ,say 150hp. And Tensers does exactly the same. while protecting against more things than PfMW and can be prebuffed. Say Tensers grants complete immunity against about 5 fireballs. Pfwm does not at all. Status effects.. ok vampires being dangerous i hope was a joke, antidrain items are common. On the other hand getting disabled (hold etc) is certain death, realistically when that happens the PfMW is about to run out and cannot be recast(b/c char disabled). With Tensers, its not a high priority danger. But the point is, a melee FM doesnt need to cast in combat, most his spells are buffs and he certainly doesnt have Vecna's since it equipped on a caster. I reverse the quote if your mage needs to cast PfMW, his defence wasnt good enough already. Same applies to tensers tbh... Prot from Dispel, MI, Stoneskin, imp haste and off we go.. Tensers+Hardiness for extra fun.

And against opponents with good APR...

High AC tank handles that. A FM is an exellent hit and run character, turning him into a tank(which pfmw kind of does) is a waste of his abilities and spell slots in my opinion.

Modifié par ncknck, 13 octobre 2011 - 07:39 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

ncknck wrote...
Heh, exactly. But Tensers is a defensive spell, PfWM prevents health of dropping below ,say 150hp. And Tensers does exactly the same. while protecting against more things than PfMW and can be prebuffed. Say Tensers grants complete immunity against about 5 fireballs.

You are making a mistake thinking that PfMW is the only spell you'd be able to cast when being able to cast. If your problem is melee, then PfMW is the answer. If a different defense of yours is broken through, then you can correct this specific opening.
In regards of extra HP, you have no idea how quickly those can be dimished (or completely circumvented).

ok vampires being dangerous i hope was a joke, antidrain items are common. On the other hand getting disabled (hold etc) is certain death, realistically when that happens the PfMW is about to run out and cannot be recast(b/c char disabled).

If you are only going to cast a single spell, why become a FM in the first place? I never said PfMW is the ultimate answer to everything. It is a very useful melee defensive spell, nothing else. When I stated it in my previous post, that was an example, nothing else. I thought that'd be obvious.
You can protect from stun with other spells (or potions or items), depending on your party makeup and the nature of the stun spell.

I reverse the quote if your mage needs to cast PfMW, his defence wasnt good enough already.

I usually don't have to cast anything. It's simply that I'm keeping my options open in case that something happens (for whatever reason).

High AC tank handles that. A FM is an exellent hit and run character, turning him into a tank(which pfmw kind of does) is a waste of his abilities and spell slots in my opinion.

Why leave tanking to the vulnerable guys? You are running a (near) perfect defense anyway (at least I am, when I'm playing), so what's the point of not using it?

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 13 octobre 2011 - 08:04 .

[Vaclavc]

In vanilla BG+TotSC, buffed Cleric with dexterity 19, full plate mail, cloak of protection +2 has AC-13:


V

[ncknck]

If your problem is melee, then PfMW is the answer

Ah i see where is the problem. The thing is, melee is not a problem after chapter 3 or so. And thus, aside from few select encounters PfMW is pointless. Whom exactly are you battling that requires a regular use of PfMW. Dragons? Wingbuffet doesnt care. Liches?.. Vampires? items. Mindflayers? high int fighter. Demiliches?? Whom? Of course if stoneskin is the only protection and AC is positive then everyone is gonna get through and the char is gonna get hammered. But thats a questionable players choice and pfmw compensates for that.

so what's the point of not using it?

Thats a good point actually, but has all the same answer: overkill.

Modifié par ncknck, 16 octobre 2011 - 07:37 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

ncknck wrote...
Ah i see where is the problem. The thing is, melee is not a problem after chapter 3 or so.

No matter what your problem is though, the ability to cast spells will make it a non-issue - and more reliably than a simple HP bonus. And that's my point.

Thats a good point actually, but has all the same answer: overkill.

Differing philosophies I guess.