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Bioware: EA doesn't tell us [what] to do


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#76
Joy Divison

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Stanley Woo wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

"we think a lot more about the commercial elements than we used to," Zeschuk explained.

The likely reason we have to do so

EDIT: I think I fixed it


We're just going to have to disagree to disagree.

I do not think entertainment and fashion companies are very good at predicting what will sell or what will be trendy, cool, chic, etc.  Zeschuk made it clear that marketability is a higher priority now that it was concerning game development.  This may be a logical response to the rising costs of producing these games as you imply with the link (thanks for taking the time to show me evidence rather just make a generalized statement), but I doubt it is the correct one.  Games, books, art, music, movies, whatever have sustained sales because of their quality, not because elements were included that are thought to appeal to a certain demographic or how much marketing is put into them.  I think most consumers are savvy enough to detect when something is less than genuine in terms of art and are being catered to.  Being a "sell out" is bad, right?  Why even tempt the perception of being one?

I do not doubt the Bioware team made honest attempts to innovate DA2, please core fans, improve from DA:O, and build upon what was already good from DA:O.  I don't doubt these were genuine efforts at all.  Where  I question this process is the designer team made no secret that they wanted to attract what they identified as a specific gamer demographic.  Now an unsavory question has been added to the process that should not be there at all - what can we do to appeal to these gamers?  The emphasis on "streamlining" in the marketing campaign is also a huge red flag.  We can disagree on semantics, but this sounds to me like dumbing down.  Maybe that's because I'm a cynic.  Still, I'm not sure its good business to boast about streamlining anything because, again, it is easy to be perceived as a sell-out...something we surely want to avoid because of the high cost in making these video games.

I think a later response you made is very telling:

we failed to adequately prepare the community for just how different
DAII was going to be from Origins. We mentioned some of the differences,
but at that point, people still thought "oh, it's going to be similar
to Origins but for these differences." We were neither loud enough,
articulate enough, nor persistent enough in managing the community's
extremely high expectations..."


This to me sounds like you believe successful marketing would have made fans respond better to the game.  In the end, it is about the game.  No matter how pretty or accurate the packaging is, if a game does not distinguish itself, its not going to make consumers feel better about the purchase.  Is it really good business to market a game as, "Hey, we know we hit a home run with DA:O, but we've decided to make some fundamental changes and there will be major differences such that you should not have unrealistic expectations."?  I will agree that there would have been less disappointment is the fanbase, mostly because a number of fans who were married to DA:O would not have pre-ordered and never purchased the game, but is the abscence of criticism really the goal here?  Managing my expectations would not have made made me spend more hours playing or like the game more than I do.

In the end, I think consumers are more intelligent than they are given credit for.  They will detect when efforts are made to cater to them, they will recognize even the smallest details and wonder why they were changed/included/discarded, and while a successful marketing campaign might entice them to buy a product, marketing will neither make them think better of that product nor prevent them from voicing their displeasure.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 12 octobre 2011 - 04:43 .


#77
Britic

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To agree with Joy in a brief as possible manner, I didn't pick up Mass Effect or DAO because of advertisements, I picked them up because critics liked them and people I know and trust liked them.

#78
Drasynd

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Let's see.
EA wants their games to have MP and ME3 has it.
EA wants to force gamers to use Origin-spyware and with a MP component ME3 will likely force you to use it. So when someone from BW says they aren't EA's b***h, I really don't believe them anymore.

#79
King Minos

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This is the Internet, opinions are facts.

#80
ElitePinecone

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Britic wrote...

To agree with Joy in a brief as possible manner, I didn't pick up Mass Effect or DAO because of advertisements, I picked them up because critics liked them and people I know and trust liked them.


There's something to be said for word of mouth, from what we know of DAO's sales they remained relatively high way after the launch advertising would have subsided. 

By contrast, negative word of mouth for the sequel (fair or not) may have led to its drastic decline in sales after the first few weeks. 

#81
xkg

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seraphymon wrote...
Nope. Opinion.

Why are you keep doing this ? Do you really want this thread to get locked ?

#82
seraphymon

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To me it really doesnt matter, i would say no. But if trolls like him go unpunished constantly, well threads might as well be locked. Epecially when there are posters who applaud him for trolling.

Modifié par seraphymon, 12 octobre 2011 - 12:25 .


#83
xkg

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^ nah don't get me wrong. I am not applauding him and I asked only you because I wont even bother talking to trolls.
Just ignore him.

#84
TheConfidenceMan

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They could have commercialized the game without casualizing it. I just don't see the correlation between removing features, making it more "accessible", etc.. and higher sales. It's not like the casual players they're gunning for are reading all the previews to see whether or not the sequel is less like the original before they buy it.

#85
ElitePinecone

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Thanks for turning a productive thread into juvenile rubbish.

Seriously, you two are moronic. Take your petty stuff elsewhere.

#86
casamar

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1. Quit it with the giant quote trees
2. If all you have to say is "no, u", take it private

Edit: Cleaned up too much bickering, now knock it off

Modifié par casamar, 12 octobre 2011 - 02:06 .


#87
Guest_casamar_*

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casamar wrote...

1. Quit it with the giant quote trees
2. If all you have to say is "no, u", take it private

Edit: Cleaned up too much bickering, now knock it off


:ph34r:Casamar is right. :ph34r:

Modifié par casamar, 12 octobre 2011 - 02:53 .


#88
Stanley Woo

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Imrahil_ wrote...
Stanley, your posting style is, IMO, much more engaging & less confrontational nowadays, so fwiw, I feel like it's more of a discussion.  Thank you for that.  Sincerely.

Thank you. I'm trying to be more David Gaider and less Dane Cook in my interactions. i hope it doesn't come across as patronizing or condescending, because it's not intended to be.

To be honest, isn't that a good thing?  The EA part, I mean?  As much as the company line might be "Bioware = EA now!", isn't it a good thing *for Bioware* that people are putting the blame on EA?  Meaning they still mostly trust Bioware, if only tEvil EA hadn't Borg'd them?  Feel free not to answer, due to being Borg'd.  :)

Lol, nah, I'll answer. no, it's not a good thing. Beyond merely "toeing the company line," success for one means success for the other. If we are contributing well to the success of EA, EA is more likely to listen to us and look at the way we do things. if someone were to see you doing something rude or unsavoury, say, would you rather they blamed you for being uncouth or blamed your parents for not raising you right? Or if you were running a shop, should someone blame the clerk/worker or you the boss for anything they disagree with?

Niether is an attractive answer, really, and a lot of the "blame" that gets thrown around is misguided to begin with. Perhaps neither party should be assigned blame, like "if it weren't for party X, Dragon Age II would have been perfect." That's the misguided part. Blaming someone isn't going to magically make games better; it just makes people feel better to have a target. And that's what we developers have to be sometimes.

Instead of blaming, people like Mike Laidlaw and David Gaider and I try to open up discussions. WHY do you blame such and such? Why? How can we make things better the next time? Without knowing the precise nature of the business relationship between EA and BioWare, without knowing just how publisher and developer work together, many folks assume (usually erroneous) things and start their complaining/arguing from there. Some things we can correct them on, some things just seem to be logical ways for businesses to work, and some things--like many of the specific circumstances surrounding game development, vis-a-vis schedules, salaries, features, etc.--are privileged information that we simply can't and won't discuss with you. This naturally puts us at a significant disadvantage, when the best we can say in our defence is "you're wrong or misguided."

People talk about us "losing fans" all the time, on every major release. heck, anytime we announce a major feature, people start crowing about how it's new and unnecessary and people won't like it. Some threaten to cancel preorders, some threaten to leave and never return, some say they'll never buy another bioWare product again. but somehow we still have a bajillion fans, both new and old! But I trust that the upper-ups in my company know what they're doing, and that they have a much longer view of things than you or I do. You the audience can only see the next project coming uip. We as developers probably have two or three things we're working towards at any given time, be it games or DLC or concepts or technology or process or what have you. Those running the company have to plan our direction years in advance, so, like in chess or 9-ball or golf, they try to place their current shot in a certain spot so that getting to the next spot is easier.

Longtime fans saw us go from Baldur's Gate to Tales of the Sword Coast to Baldur's Gate II to Throne of Bhaal, which put BioWare in the right place to do Neverwinter Nights. Even the success of Neverwinter Nights put us in the right place at the right time to do Knights of the Old Republic, which kinda sorta made us the right people to do something like Star Wars: The Old Republic, right? If we are still trying to attract that new audience, we have to change our game a bit. we can't keep doing exactly the same thing and expect the world, the industry, and people's tastes to stay the same just for us.

We can never promise that you'll never be disappointed by a BioWare game or that we'll never make something you don't like, but I doubt we'll stop listening to your comments and feedback here in our community.

#89
Akka le Vil

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ElitePinecone wrote...

You're right, of course - it's impossible to ignore the commercial side of the business, given ballooning development costs.

I made an answer about that, but it seems it was completely ignored, so let me repeat it myself : a lot (and I mean A LOT, like about the MAJORITY) of the ballooning development costs, are caused by MARKETTING.
Games like FIFA have up to SEVENTY PERCENTS of their WHOLE BUDGET devolved to marketting. 
Don't you see the logical absurdity of saying "we have to sell more because costs increase" when the majority of the cost increase is caused by investing into an area which only goal is to sell more ? Even worse when these commercial concerns are the main cause of "dumbing down" and the whole discussion about "niche" and "broad" market ?

I seriously can't understand the logic of this. It's losing on all the levels - I don't see we should ignore totally the commercial side (though it seems there is a very strong correlation between "great games" and "games which were made with the idea of making a good game first, and idea about making a profitable game second", and an a correlation just as strong between "bad games" and "games which were made with the idea of being profitable first, and a good game second"), but it seems rather obvious that this rush for profit has been both extremely nefarious to the quality (and, even more, the "soul") of games, and rather counter-productive - great games from the past sold perhaps five times less, but they had a market ten times and budget ten times smaller, so you'd wonder what was the point of increasing so much their cost, marketting and betraying their consumer base...

I've quite a bit more to ask to Stanley, but I'd really like to hear what's to be said about this point.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 12 octobre 2011 - 07:27 .


#90
Stanley Woo

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Akka le Vil wrote...
I made an answer about that, but it seems it was completely ignored

It was ignored (by me, anyway) because your base premise is something to which I can only respond "you are wrong." And as your base premise is incorrect, your conclusions based on that premise are incorrect. The rhetorical questions you ask based on that premise are misguided, and your utopian idea of game developer as artist and publisher as money-grubbing killjoy is laudable but completely ignores the financial realities of the industry. Sorry.

#91
Mike_Neel

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It does seem like gamers as a whole are less forgiving for games they don't like as opposed to other entertainments. I have some favorite authors who have all written what I felt to be a weak book but I don't start shouting all at them and threaten to stop reading their work.

Same with movie actors and directors. They all make or star in a bad title but I don't suddenly stop watching everything they do.

So you didn't like DA2. That's fine. But it is a bit reactionary to take each bad title as an insult to you personally. Maybe you don't like the new direction Bioware is taking, focusing more on market saturation and commercial success. That's fine too. But they are free to do so. It's not a personal insult to you. It's just time you accept that Bioware isn't making the games you want anymore and move on. This isn't the end of gaming as you know it.

#92
Stanley Woo

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For some, it is, as they have invested too much of themselves emotionally in believing that BioWare games are the last, best hope for their type of gaming. just as many Star Wars fans believed Episodes I, II and II were George Lucas destroying their childhood. Can you imagine being locked out of your childhood fantasy world, a place where you spent hours and hours pretending to fight with lightsabers or trying to develop your own Force abilities, a place where anything was possible with perseverance and a calm, controlled exertion of will?

And yet, Star Wars didn't lose an entire generation of fans. Neither did Star Trek when the latest movie was released. Neither did Firefly when Serenity didn't do well at the box office. one might even say that, since these events, those respective franchises gained legions of new fans while retaining many of their old ones.

But much of what you say is true, Mike_Neel. A bad product is not (or should not be) a personal insult to anyone. And this isn't the end of gaming as you know it. Thank you.

#93
Blastback

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Mike_Neel wrote...

It does seem like gamers as a whole are less forgiving for games they don't like as opposed to other entertainments. I have some favorite authors who have all written what I felt to be a weak book but I don't start shouting all at them and threaten to stop reading their work.

Same with movie actors and directors. They all make or star in a bad title but I don't suddenly stop watching everything they do.

So you didn't like DA2. That's fine. But it is a bit reactionary to take each bad title as an insult to you personally. Maybe you don't like the new direction Bioware is taking, focusing more on market saturation and commercial success. That's fine too. But they are free to do so. It's not a personal insult to you. It's just time you accept that Bioware isn't making the games you want anymore and move on. This isn't the end of gaming as you know it.

It's part of being a geek genre I think.  The same sort of reaction is seen with comics, Tabletop games, Star Wars, etc.  The audiance is extremely passionate, which is a mixed blessing.  We invest ourselves in these hobbies more than other people might.

#94
Sylvius the Mad

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Stanley Woo wrote...

For some, it is, as they have invested too much of themselves emotionally in believing that BioWare games are the last, best hope for their type of gaming.

It's pretty clear that BioWare was the last big developer making the games I wanted to play.  I can still see most of the features I want in an RPG in AAA titles, but they're not all in the same games.

I can get free-form roleplaying from Bethesda, but I can't have pausable stat-driven combat (though Fallout 3 came close).  I can get pausable stat-driven combat from BioWare, but apparently not a silent protagonist.

The segmentation is irritating.

#95
Sylvius the Mad

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Blastback wrote...

The audiance is extremely passionate

I would say obsessive.  And I would call that a positive feature.

#96
Stanley Woo

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Sylvius, we all know by now that you are a very special pony, and no single developer will be able to make a game that will completely satisfy you. :) I'll settle for BioWare making a game you don't outright hate.

#97
Sylvius the Mad

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Stanley Woo wrote...

Sylvius, we all know by now that you are a very special pony, and no single developer will be able to make a game that will completely satisfy you. 

You've done it before, or at least come very close.  More than once.

#98
Blastback

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Stanley Woo wrote...

Sylvius, we all know by now that you are a very special pony, and no single developer will be able to make a game that will completely satisfy you. :) I'll settle for BioWare making a game you don't outright hate.

Thing is, I think alot of the upset hardcore RPG fans are in the same boat as him.  Just not to as much of an extreme.

#99
Tsuga C

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...
It's pretty clear that BioWare was the last big developer making the games I wanted to play.


*concurs wholeheartedly with Sylvius*  Image IPB

And then came the lack of proper support and expansion for DA1 and its attendent DLC along with the entire DA2 imbroglio...  Image IPB

Modifié par Tsuga C, 12 octobre 2011 - 08:56 .


#100
Sylvianus

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Stanley Woo wrote...

For some, it is, as they have invested too much of themselves emotionally in believing that BioWare games are the last, best hope for their type of gaming.

Very true. Rpg are rare enough to worry about the direction taken by one of the great company of this type of gaming.