216 réponses à ce sujet

[Morroian]

FedericoV wrote...

Creativity is clearly the most important element in a development group. It's the spark that makes good game really great. But since we are talking of projects that costs millions of dollar from investor all around the world, developers have the duty to test their creativity with player feedback with every tool they can use (forum talk, focus groups and market analysis). We leave no more in the age where Lord Brithish could develop his game alone, like it or not.

Some time the process works (ME2). Some time the process don't work (DA2).

I still can't see this, the biggest problems of DA2 are principally related to it being rushed, ME2 is polished but its issues (one dimensional combat,  poor role playing) are fundamentally part of the game

[FedericoV]

Morroian wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

Creativity is clearly the most important element in a development group. It's the spark that makes good game really great. But since we are talking of projects that costs millions of dollar from investor all around the world, developers have the duty to test their creativity with player feedback with every tool they can use (forum talk, focus groups and market analysis). We leave no more in the age where Lord Brithish could develop his game alone, like it or not.

Some time the process works (ME2). Some time the process don't work (DA2).

I still can't see this, the biggest problems of DA2 are principally related to it being rushed, ME2 is polished but its issues (one dimensional combat,  poor role playing) are fundamentally part of the game

No game is perfect, with the exception of Shadow of the Colossus :happy:. And no development procedure or feedback can save bad feature like planet scanning. And every player has different tastes and different priorities.

But you can't deny the improvements in term of gameplay from ME to ME2 (at least, if you consider it as a third person shooter with RPG element). And you can't deny that ME2 is a critical, commercial and even creative success on many levels (for sure, it's Bioware's biggest success to date). 

Modifié par FedericoV, 18 octobre 2011 - 10:31 .

[ScotGaymer]

Federico.

No it isnt. At least if you are considering sales as a measure of success.

Dragon Age Origins is/was Bioware's best selling game, cross platform it sold more units than Mass Effect 2 did. Wether that equated to greater profit however is unknown.

It really depends how you measure success I suppose.

[FedericoV]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

No it isnt. At least if you are considering sales as a measure of success.

Dragon Age Origins is/was Bioware's best selling game, cross platform it sold more units than Mass Effect 2 did. Wether that equated to greater profit however is unknown.

It really depends how you measure success I suppose.

I'm not only talking only of sales: ME2 is Bioware's most popular game. Denying it is just a way to avoid reality.

Go in any gaming forum/community outside BSN (and the RPGcodex off course) and you will mostly hear excitement and good things about the ME franchise. But like it or not, everyone recognize who Shepard is and what the ME universe is. Shepard is an icon of gaming. No one knows who the Warden is. The series is so popular that it has gone beyond the known boundaries of the RPG crowd (and that's what RPG has allways try to make since Diablo 2).

ME2 is the game that received most critical praise in Bioware's history. Just look at the consistent metacritic score.

Gameplay wise, the game is a creative success. ME2 is the first Shooter/RPG hybrid where the combat does not look and plays as a poor man version of Gears of War/Popular Shooter Franchise. ME2 while still having some RPG elements (levelling, skills, classes with different purposes and strategies, NPC co-op) plays as well (if not better) than any third person shooter in the market.

Then, let's talk about actual sales. People makes a lot of assumption on the data: no one knows the fact and I do not plan to throw numbers. But Bioware have revelaed to Game Informer that the series have sold more than 7 million copies before the PS3 port. ME1 has sold something like 3 million copies. Then ME2 must have sold 4+ million copies. On two platform. Before the port to PS3 (they should have sold at least 1 million copies on the PS, right?). Do the math again aaaaand... enchantment: ME2 has sold a lot more than Origins . 

And there's one interesting thing I do not understand about people using VGZcharts sales data about Origins: they never look at Awakening abysmally bad sales. If Origins was such a popular game and such a popular format, why its expansion have sold no more than 1 million copies? Is it not a sign that the popularity of the original game was infact more a result of nostalgia than actual popularity and relevance? I mean, BG2 was a relevant game. DA:O? I like DA:O but I doubt so.

Personal experience (for what it could mean, at least I'm sure of it): all of my old RPG buddies bought Origins because of the fond memories they had of BG2. They never played a Bioware title after it since only two of us are still gamers. Just a minority of us finished the game and most loose interest not before too long. I am the only one who bought Awakenings. DA2 is a a flawed game and they could have changed the format more gradually and without throwing away the good stuff of DA:O that all gamers were happy about, off course, but imho Bioware was right claiming that nostalgia can only bring you so far.

Modifié par FedericoV, 19 octobre 2011 - 07:32 .

[xkg]

^
So how do you know how many untis DA:O have sold ?

Are you comparing ME seire sales given by Bioware to those sales for DA:O on vgchartz ? lol
It doesn't work like that. You need to compare data from the same source and since we don't have anything about DA:O sales from Bioware you can only compare VGchartz data.

And DA:O is clear winner there.
Your enchantment seems broken.

Modifié par xkg, 19 octobre 2011 - 07:58 .

[FedericoV]

xkg wrote...

^
So how do you know how many untis DA:O have sold ?

I do not know for sure. I'm not making numbers up. I only know for sure that ME series sold 7+million copies and that ME sold something like 3 million copies because Bioware have given those numbers. They have never given actual numbers for DA:O and we have to guess using different and uncomplete sources.

Are you comparing ME seire sales given by Bioware to those sales for DA:O on vgchartz ? lol

Do you trust more VGchartz than Bioware on the issue? ROTFL. And since you are so much in comparing VGchartz datas: explain to me the incredible performance and popularity of Awakenings.

It doesn't work like that. You need to compare data from the same source and since we don't have anything about DA:O sales from Bioware you can only compare VGchartz data.

And who are you to say how it should work? Are you Steve Jobs in disguise? Everyone has his opinions and he back it up as he wants, using different sources as he likes. If it does not make sense to you, fine. I'm not here to tell you "how it should work".

And DA:O is clear winner there.

Yes, and pigs can fly. Guys, it's your game and your life: see things as it makes sense to you. I cannot help you if your really believe that DA:O is more popular than ME2. If you really believe that Bioware has changed DA to look more like ME and that they are putting clearly more money, attention and resources on the ME franchise out of masochism, it's your call.

I still prefer a broken enchantment over a parallel reality .

[Foolsfolly]

Morroian wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

Creativity is clearly the most important element in a development group. It's the spark that makes good game really great. But since we are talking of projects that costs millions of dollar from investor all around the world, developers have the duty to test their creativity with player feedback with every tool they can use (forum talk, focus groups and market analysis). We leave no more in the age where Lord Brithish could develop his game alone, like it or not.

Some time the process works (ME2). Some time the process don't work (DA2).

I still can't see this, the biggest problems of DA2 are principally related to it being rushed, ME2 is polished but its issues (one dimensional combat,  poor role playing) are fundamentally part of the game

The combat was more dynamic and well done than the first game. And the role playing was ten times better than DA2.

ME2's small as hell issues are, in my opinion, the lack of visible information. Like if you look at a weapon load-out there's no rate of fire, damage, or anything. To find out such information you had to go to these forums or the Mass Effect wiki. I'm a sucker for information and I really like to form my opinions by comparing hard data more so than a few paragraphs describing the weapons or skills.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 19 octobre 2011 - 10:13 .

[ScotGaymer]

@Federico.

It was originally from a Bioware dev (I think it was either Chris of Fernando) saying that DAO sold more units than any other Bioware game including ME2.

As I said it really depends on how you measure "success".

We have no data on the profitability of ME2 vs DAO, so we cant use that as a measurement of success.
What we do have is access to the approximate sales data, and sales data says DAO sold more units. So that could be used as a measurement of success.

Also we could use media coverage, and seeming popularity as a measurement of success. I will give you that for sure. ME is certainly Bioware's more visible franchise. So that could be used as a measurement of success.

It really depends.

[xkg]

First give me some link to backup this :

FedericoV wrote...
ME sold something like 3 million copies because Bioware have given those numbers.

Then we can continue to discuss some more (like for example ME serie 7 millions stated by Bioware already include digital sales and Vgchartz DAO data doesn't).

As for Awakening - of course you didn't notice that there is no sales data for PS 3 Europe and no data for PC sales at all on VGChartz? Not to mention digital sales.

And BTW i dont need to be Steve Jobs to know how to math and to see how your reasoning is flawed.

Modifié par xkg, 19 octobre 2011 - 11:23 .

[Merci357]

xkg wrote...

First give me some link to backup this :

FedericoV wrote...
ME sold something like 3 million copies because Bioware have given those numbers.

Apparently this was stated in a PS3 magazine, see http://www.examiner....-over-7-million for reference. At least it is stated ME1 sold 2.5m on xbox alone, and I think it's reasonable to guess the PC sales will cover the rest. ME1 is on Steam since ages, and had a few 2,5€ sales...

Modifié par Merci357, 19 octobre 2011 - 11:21 .

[FedericoV]

FitScotGaymer wrote...
It was originally from a Bioware dev (I think it was either Chris of Fernando) saying that DAO sold more units than any other Bioware game including ME2.

As far as I remember, the exact quote was that DA:O was the best seller in the "first chapter of a franchise" department for the entire EA. Not the best seller overall. And it would make sense with the number I've used in my previous post.

It really depends.

I agree on that point, infact I used the term "popularity" from the beginning. Sales are only a part of the popularity of a game. Shadow of the Colossus is probably one of the most popular games for the PS2, still it hasn't sold that well at the times.

[xkg]

Merci357 wrote...

xkg wrote...

First give me some link to backup this :

FedericoV wrote...
ME sold something like 3 million copies because Bioware have given those numbers.

Apparently this was stated in a PS3 magazine, see http://www.examiner....-over-7-million for reference. At least it is stated ME1 sold 2.5m on xbox alone, and I think it's reasonable to guess the PC sales will cover the rest. ME1 is on Steam since ages, and had a few 2,5€ sales...

Yes i know. I only asked him beacuse he said those sales were given by Bioware. Strangely - Vgchartz data are very similar:

XBOX  2.4 mil,
PC 0.42   but this data DOESN"T include sales for PC in USA and doesn't include any digital sales.

Seeing how most of the times USA sales are twice the EU sales lets assume 0.8 mil for PC USA.
That gives us about 3.6~3.7 mil FOR ME1

Now substract that number from number given by BIOWARE (7 mils) and suddenly ME2 sales doesn't look so hot anymore.

BTW - in this article you have linked it is said that 7 mil number is for ALL platforms - PS3 included.

Modifié par xkg, 19 octobre 2011 - 11:55 .

[FedericoV]

xkg wrote...

First give me some link to backup this :

FedericoV wrote...
ME sold something like 3 million copies because Bioware have given those numbers.

See above. And it was posted on ME1 boards at the time. Trust me or not: I prefer DA:O gameplay over ME2 so it's not in my interest to push ME popularity. I'm simply trying to face reality and explain what's happened in DA2 without recurring to "EA evil overlord" fantasies.

Then we can continue to discuss some more (like for example ME serie 7 millions stated by Bioware already include digital sales and Vgchartz DAO data doesn't).

PC sales are only a fraction of ME1+2 sales AFAIK so I do not expect them to be that relevant in the overall picture of 7+ million sales total.

As for Awakening - of course you didn't notice that there is no sales data for PS 3 Europe and no data for PC sales at all on VGChartz? Not to mention digital sales.

So, are you saying that VGChartz data are uncomplete and not to be trusted? Incredible !

But let's follow your "correct" logic. Compare xbox sales in the US then, using VGchartz ok? Origins: 1 milion copies in the first 10 weeks. Awakenings, 300'000 copies in the first 10 weeks. A brillaint success indeed. The perfect sign of the popularity of a franchise. Just like Assassin Creed Brotherood compared to Assassin Creed 2...

Or lets' compare PC+Xbox first 10 weeks sales of ME2 and DA:O, allways using "correct" sources and logic.

ME2 Xbox: 2,54 m. ME2 PC: 0,18 m= 2,72 m.
DA:O Xbox: 2,16 m. DA:O PC: 0,40 m= 2,56 m.

At best it looks like a tie to me. But at the end, I do not trust those numbers too much. I simply cannot really believe to the "masochist" Ea/Bioware who throw away money for no reason that the whole "DA:O was more popular than ME2" argument implies.

And BTW i dont need to be Steve Jobs to know how to math and to see how your reasoning is flawed.

Off course mate, to correct the flawed logic of my arguments you should be Bertrand Russell, not Steve Jobs .

Just joking: I really don't wont to start a flame and sometimes I admit that my stile can sound harsh. So I apologize if I offended you. It's really not my intention. We are just players with different opinions and uncomplete sources and our arguments are equally biased at the end. We'll probably have to agree to disagree.

[Playest]

sorry double post

Modifié par Playest, 19 octobre 2011 - 03:22 .

[Playest]

Here's a post
from over on the escapist forums about DA/DA2 Sales figures.

http://www.escapistm...gon-Age-2-Sales

a few things to keep in mind;

400,000 of week one sales were pre-orders.

This is only the first 10 weeks so it's possible
that over the long term a different picture emerges, though I would be hard
pressed to believe that DA2 outperformed the original in the long term.

DAO was released in the holiday season.

There's the
factor of a slower economy.

And finally there's no way for us to know how much
both products cost to produce. DA2 might have sold half as many copies but
still have been more profitable because it cost that much less to produce.

Modifié par Playest, 19 octobre 2011 - 03:22 .

[aries1001]

As the 2½ million Euros or 3½ million US dollars, I was just trying to point out that even small indie games are in need of a million dollar or euro investment just to make the game. And then there's the marketing budget which isn't as big as it probably could be.

For games like DA:O or DA2, their budgets are way over 3½ million US dollars, so they need to tell many more people that the game is about to be relaesed, has been released and still is available. So Bioware and other game companies today need to make sure they make games that appeal to a broader (mass) market than before, say in 1998 or 2002.

[Stanley Woo]

Since we are no longer even remotely on topic, i'm going to shut this thread down. Thank you.

End of line.