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[upsettingshorts]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Actually, regarding the comment on animations in the opening post.

No.

Fantasy superhero animations do not fit the dark and gritty setting. It's a complete disconnect.

Dragon Age has never been dark or gritty.

[Wozearly]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In a way, yes, but then you miss out on what he actually said.  If the paraphrases were better written, or if we were given the full text when we select our responses, then skipping the voiced component would be a fairly adequate solution.

The problem is both that the voice limits are possible range of expression, and that we're not allowed to know what it is Hawke is going to say or do until after he has done it.

Both of these things need fixing.  Simply skipping the voiced line solves only one of them (and actually makes the other worse).

I agree. I've never fully understood Bioware's affection for their current paraphrasing model.

If you want players to understand what the character is going to say, write it in full.
If you want players to understand how the character is going to say it, you need some kind of tonal information.
You really need BOTH if you're going to use a voiced protagonist and you want the player to feel that the character is 'theirs'.

Players should be surprised by how other characters react to what they say (although preferably not all the sodding time), not by how their own character interprets what the player thought he was going to say.

Credit where its due, DA2 did introduce a tonal icon system. But these were essentially railroaded into Paragon, Renegade and Comedy Effect. Why? Because the dialogue wheel system has three slots that can be used on the right hand side, and those are the only slots allowed for most primary tonal responses. The left side is dedicated to exploratory conversation options. Not perfect.

Why this approach? To deal with player grumbles with the list of 6 options approach. Sometimes you'd pick the first one, intending to ask about the third one afterwards, only to find out you've pushed the conversation past that point and now can't ask about it. Even though you, the player, know that you could.

Equally, for the impatient to get moving, its not always clear if talking about something will lead to more and more and more talking (Jade Empire, I'm so looking at you). So the wheel adds a structural layer to give the player that information in advance (although sometimes it breaks its own rules).

All of these conversational structure grumbles and hatched solutions serve to underline a critical point - players don't like not knowing the intention and at least some indication of intention with dialogue actions and we don't generally like it very much when the game makes our character act in ways that we didn't expect or want if, up until then, they've been 'our' character.

Modifié par Wozearly, 02 novembre 2011 - 07:01 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Dragon Age has never been dark or gritty.

Tell that to Dan Tudge.  "Dark and Gritty" was nearly all he ever said when promoting Origins.

I'd describe DAO and earthy.  There was a naturalness to it.  Everything felt weighed-down - even the game's colour-palette was laden with dirt and mud.

I really liked it.  DA2 is too fanciful for my tastes.

[Wozearly]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Dragon Age has never been dark or gritty.

As has been debated several times, that depends on someone's personal interpretation of what dark and gritty means.

What is pretty self-evident is that DA:O sits more comfortably alongside other 'dark' fantasy worlds. The Warhammer IP, Morrowind, the Thief series, The Witcher, Westeros...I could go on.

Even though it has some 'high' fantasy influences, it doesn't bear much resemblance to the likes of Final Fantasy, or Legend of Zelda, etc.

DA2 stepped away from the 'dark' end slightly by further blurring the line of realism surrounding the player character. The world and setting are still just as dark (even if it does look a lot brighter), but the player has a superhero suspension-of-disbelief feel to them.

This is more of a high fantasy concept, where major heroes (and some villans) have the amazing ability to ignore the usual laws of reality that apply to most other characters in the world. Defying gravity, hefting massive oversized weapons, teleporting around - you know the drill.

None of these have a rational explanation, because the setting doesn't demand one. The hero is heroic, therefore normal rules do not apply.

Modifié par Wozearly, 02 novembre 2011 - 07:15 .

[Wozearly]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Dragon Age has never been dark or gritty.

Tell that to Dan Tudge.  "Dark and Gritty" was nearly all he ever said when promoting Origins.

I'd describe DAO and earthy.  There was a naturalness to it.  Everything felt weighed-down - even the game's colour-palette was laden with dirt and mud.

I really liked it.  DA2 is too fanciful for my tastes.

Linked to my above post, I'd second that.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Wozearly wrote...

I agree. I've never fully understood Bioware's affection for their current paraphrasing model.

If you want players to understand what the character is going to say, write it in full.
If you want players to understand how the character is going to say it, you need some kind of tonal information.
You really need BOTH if you're going to use a voiced protagonist and you want the player to feel that the character is 'theirs'.

Without the voice, I think the tonal information is unnecesary, and possible counter-productive.

I'll agree that with the voice, we need tone information, but ideally I'd like to avoid the voice entirely (and all of the problems it brings).

So the wheel adds a structural layer to give the player that information in advance (although sometimes it breaks its own rules).

That the wheel ever breaks its own rules makes the rules completely worthless.

I'd rather have not known the supposed rules - then I wouldn't have been caught off-guard by those instances where they weren't followed.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Wozearly wrote...

None of these have a rational explanation, because the setting doesn't demand one.

The setting always demands one.

If DA2 has done anything, it has made me less tolerant of asymmetrical combat mechanics.  I'm playing DAO right now, and I'm noticing the asymmetry more (and it's bothering me more) than it did my first several times through the game.

DA2 has hardened my resolve to see BioWare return to a more sensible world design.

[Morroian]

Wozearly wrote...

I agree. I've never fully understood Bioware's affection for their current paraphrasing model.

If players read the full line they are more likely to skip the actual spoken part.

[Sylvianus]

Morroian wrote...

Wozearly wrote...

I agree. I've never fully understood Bioware's affection for their current paraphrasing model.

If players read the full line they are more likely to skip the actual spoken part.

And repetition is absolutely awkward. You read yourself the sentence in your head, and after the Protagonist say exactly the same thing. I'm glad bioware didn't do that, that sucks. Or give me a silent protagonist.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 02 novembre 2011 - 08:11 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Morroian wrote...

Wozearly wrote...

I agree. I've never fully understood Bioware's affection for their current paraphrasing model.

If players read the full line they are more likely to skip the actual spoken part.

Not BioWare's problem.  If they wanted to prevent us from skipping the spoken line, they could just take away the option to do so.

But they haven't done that, so clearly that isn't their motivation for using paraphrases.  I know that's the justification they've espoused, but that explanation doesn't match the available evidence.

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Dragon Age has never been dark or gritty.

Tell that to Dan Tudge.  "Dark and Gritty" was nearly all he ever said when promoting Origins.

There's your problem.  I don't need to remind this forum, especially post-DA2, about the dangers of giving a crap about what marketing and promotion says.

Actually playing either game betrays no such style. 

And I'm not saying this to defend DA2 in any way.  I'd just describe DAO - aside from perhaps, the Broodmother/Hespith sequence - as uniformly generic.

If people were arguing, "The flashyness of DA2 contrasts with the uniformly generic DAO" I'd agree with them a hundred percent. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 novembre 2011 - 08:34 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

If people were arguing, "The flashyness of DA2 contrasts with the uniformly generic DAO" I'd agree with them a hundred percent.

The flashiness of DA2 conflicts with the mundanity of DAO.

That's the problem.  I want more mundanity.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 02 novembre 2011 - 08:36 .

[Heimdall]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

If people were arguing, "The flashyness of DA2 contrasts with the uniformly generic DAO" I'd agree with them a hundred percent.

The flashiness of DA2 conflicts with the mundanity of DAO.

That's the problem.  I want more mundanity.

Really?  I thought DA2 was a little too flashy, but DA:O was painfully generic.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Really?  I thought DA2 was a little too flashy, but DA:O was painfully generic.

I like mainstream fantasy.  I'm playing DAO now, and I get joy just from watching the light relfect off of my Warden's armour.  Nothing in DA2 looks that good.

[upsettingshorts]

I will never experience joy until BioWare learns about scabbards, sheaths, and straps.

I've been waiting for decades.

[Heimdall]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Really?  I thought DA2 was a little too flashy, but DA:O was painfully generic.

I like mainstream fantasy.  I'm playing DAO now, and I get joy just from watching the light relfect off of my Warden's armour.  Nothing in DA2 looks that good.

That is something I'd like back, but most of DA:O's artstyle can stay where it is.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I will never experience joy until BioWare learns about scabbards, sheaths, and straps.

I've been waiting for decades.

I'd be content with weapons being invisible until they are drawn.

I certainly won't be content with weapons being mandatory like they are in DA2.

[upsettingshorts]

They did that with Jade Empire, but then weapons were tied to styles and not traditionally equipped in an inventory.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

They did that with Jade Empire, but then weapons were tied to styles and not traditionally equipped in an inventory.

NWN's terrific inventory system (they should just use that for every game) allowed quick equipping and unequipping of weapons from the hotbar, so those weapons were effectively invisible when not drawn.

BG's weapons were always drawn, thus avoiding the problem (and creating another one).

I honestly don't remember how KotOR handled it.

[Heimdall]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

They did that with Jade Empire, but then weapons were tied to styles and not traditionally equipped in an inventory.

NWN's terrific inventory system (they should just use that for every game) allowed quick equipping and unequipping of weapons from the hotbar, so those weapons were effectively invisible when not drawn.

BG's weapons were always drawn, thus avoiding the problem (and creating another one).

I honestly don't remember how KotOR handled it.

Weapons always drawn.

[Sylvius the Mad]

[quote]Lord Aesir wrote...

I honestly don't remember how KotOR handled it.[/quote]Weapons always drawn.[/quote]
Right.  But the lightsabers were off when not in use.  That's it.  Thanks.

So that's a special case.  NWN handled this problem the best.

[Wozearly]

Sylvianus wrote...

Morroian wrote...

If players read the full line they are more likely to skip the actual spoken part.

And repetition is absolutely awkward. You read yourself the sentence in your head, and after the Protagonist say exactly the same thing. I'm glad bioware didn't do that, that sucks. Or give me a silent protagonist.

(responding to both)

Which would suggest that the spoken part may not be such high value...also, Deus Ex didn't have a problem with this recently.

However, assuming that paraphrasing is therefore desirable to avoid using the full line rather than just to save space, that actually builds in the problem people have with "Wait, I thought he was going to say something like (x)". Even given a paraphrase, we still complete the thought in our own mind and when the character takes it down an unexpected path then it jars badly. Can't repeat it enough - being surprised by *your* character is pretty much always a bad thing.

If the intention is discouraging the VA from being skipped, or encouraging it to be a surprise to the player, it might be better not to paraphrase the sentence, but give the tonal responses and/or indicate the intention only (e.g. Accept, Coerce, Intimidate, Insult, Persuade). That way you'd know Hawke is going to attempt to intimidate the other person, but have no idea exactly what he's going to say. So it'll be a surprise, and you're more likely to listen to the VA.

...is it just me, or does that sound more like a justification for spending money on VA for the player? Its pretty close to being an argument against VA players at all.

[Wozearly]

[quote]Sylvius the Mad wrote...

[quote]Lord Aesir wrote...

I honestly don't remember how KotOR handled it.[/quote]Weapons always drawn.[/quote]
Right.  But the lightsabers were off when not in use.  That's it.  Thanks.

So that's a special case.  NWN handled this problem the best.[/quote]

Personally, I feel DA's "stowed when not in combat, but visible" is the best way of handling it. One of the oddest things about KOTOR was wandering around Taris, ostensibly trying to keep a low profile while your party is all proudly displaying various items of heavy weaponry - you know, blaster rifles, blaster cannon, socking great two-handed echani blades...in a place where the only other people openly toting weapons are the Sith...hmm....

Lightsabers were actually the best by dint of being one of the most subtle when held.

It always strikes me as odd when people magically produce a two-handed axe from their pocket that was previously invisible...

[Sylvius the Mad]

Shorts is complaining, though, that they're stowed badly, because they lack sheaths and the like.

I'm more annoyed by the disappearance of quivers between DAO and DA2.

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Shorts is complaining, though, that they're stowed badly, because they lack sheaths and the like.

I'm more annoyed by the disappearance of quivers between DAO and DA2.

Part of the same issue to me.

I like equipment and inventory to make sense, visually and otherwise.  It's why the holster mod for pistols in FNV is one of my favorites.  

So that means visual elements like containers, as well as inventory Tetris plus weight limits.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 novembre 2011 - 11:22 .