384 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

Wozearly wrote...

Arguably the DA series gets around it via use of the hotbar to some extent, but certainly in DA:O I found that inventory items were competing for space on the hotbar against abilities by later levels. Not ideal...

The DA games also don't allow you to put equippable gear in the hotbar.  This is another way in which NWN's inventory interface was superior, as you could put weapons or even weapon/shield combinations in the hotbar for easy swapping.

DAO came close to this, but it was less flexible.

As for not having enough hotbar space, NWN solved that problem too by having 4 hotbars.  Only one of them was ever  on the screen at a time, but they were easily called up with a single keystroke.

My immediate angle was whether the inventory tetris box is designed to represent bulk either instead of weight (e.g. original Deus Ex) or in combination with weight (e.g. it might be light, but it takes up a lot of space in your pack, which isn't magically infinite - can't recall any games using this model off the top of my head).

I would prefer both weight and volume.  Again, this is how NWN did it.

But since BioWare seems to have abandoned weight, but they do still impose a numerical limit, I think volume on it's own is something they might support.

Incidentally, if they insist on a shared party inventory, that doesn't prevent them from imposing weight limits.  Wizardry 8 showed us how that can work.

Of course, it could have nothing explicitly to do with bulk and simply be a different GUI for displaying player inventory, which is then much more sortable (and which could have filters applied on top). Which would be in line with how most MMOs handle player inventory.

Right.  Baldur's Gate did the same thing.  There was a 2D inventory interface, but with no volume considerations (so no tetris).

For people who despise the manual sorting a tetris grid sometimes requires, a BG-style inventory would work better.  That would permit manual sorting for those who want it, but never require it in the way that grids sometimes do (Diablo II, for example, routinely required manual arrangement).

[TheRealJayDee]

Wozearly wrote...

Sylvius, I really think we should find some devious way to send you in to replace the lead designer for a game and see what comes out as a result.

I think I might actually love to play that game.

[grregg]

I was wondering why BioWare set the inventory limit in Dragon Age games. The way they did it seems to me to be in the unhappy middle. It's too limiting for the folks that like unlimited inventory, and it's not limited enough to become part of the gameplay and force the player to make strategic choices.

Effectively all it does it asks the player to put out the trash from time to time. Hardly the most exciting request in my opinion.

[tonnactus]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

And a voiced PC is an abomination that never belongs in an RPG.

But Dragon Age didnt have really a silent Pc...
http://dragonage.wik...rden/Voice_Sets

[Wozearly]

tonnactus wrote...

But Dragon Age didnt have really a silent Pc...
http://dragonage.wik...rden/Voice_Sets

I don't think Sylvius ever said DA:O was perfect...

Limiting the Warden to the occasional spoken comment in combat or on actions was definitely less intrusive than a full blown VA character...although whether "Can I get you a ladder, so you can get off my back?" will ever be truly forgiven is a discussion for another day.

[tonnactus]

Wozearly wrote...

I don't think Sylvius ever said DA:O was perfect...

Limiting the Warden to the occasional spoken comment in combat or on actions was definitely less intrusive than a full blown VA character...although whether "Can I get you a ladder, so you can get off my back?" will ever be truly forgiven is a discussion for another day.

That was awfull. But otherwise,a sultry or cocky female elf were actually quite funny.

Modifié par tonnactus, 05 novembre 2011 - 12:33 .

[Jonp382]

tonnactus wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

And a voiced PC is an abomination that never belongs in an RPG.

But Dragon Age didnt have really a silent Pc...
http://dragonage.wik...rden/Voice_Sets

But he/she was silent when speaking to another being which is a whole world of difference. Additionally, the voice set was a lot more predictable than DA2, allowing you to design your character around that. If you played on the PC you could even mod it out entirely without issue.

[tonnactus]

Jonp382 wrote...


But he/she was silent when speaking to another being which is a whole world of difference.

How that,when the voice in battles didnt match with someones imaginations??
Should the player pretend then this is someone else then his character speaking???

[Aldandil]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Aldandil wrote...

I would be curious to see how an grid-based inventory where each character has separate "grids" for different types of items. Each character has room for another armor set or two, a couple of extra weapons, a potion bag, a jewelry bag etc. Each character has a personal inventory, and ideally you would be able to show all the party member's inventories on the inventory screen at the same time, to make it easier to manage.

You don't really need those categories with a grid, though, because the player can create groupings himself.

Why should the player be stuck with the groupings selected by the designers?

This is another reason why I like NWN's inventory so much.  There were 6 pages of grid for each character, so you could create categories yourself and easily keep things separate.

Now, NWN was effectively a single-character game, so there was no party inventory (until the expansions, but it was always a bit clumsy).  A good example of a sortable grid-based inventory in a party-based game is the original Dungeon Siege - though, again, that was broken by the expansion when they added auto-sorting to prevent the player from having to make space for larger objects.

I see your point, but I don't have a problem with that. At one point or another we'll run up against an arbitrary decision anyway. How big is an armor compared to a herb? In that case I prefer if volume is managed by arbitrary types instead of arbitrary sizes. Why? Because it seems more reasonable that a person can carry a finite amount of certain objects, such as armors and weapons. It also makes the loot carrying a little bit less jarring. If you find a sword that you're not going to use, then you can compare it to the other swords you're currently carrying around while waiting to find a vendor. You don't need to consider throwing a way a potion and a gemstone to have room enough for another swords, items that are very unlikely to be in competition with a sword for room in a back pack.

My main gripe with NWN's inventory was that volume wasn't really much of an issue. Unless your character was very strong, you never ran any risk of filling up all six sheets of inventory grids before you were encumbered (but of course, you're not arguing to bring NWN's inventory back, just that it's a good source of inspiration). I also found it frustrating that all the items you picked up ended up at the first available slot, making it necessary to move things around for every looted chest (and the OC had a LOT of those).

And, as a point on topic, I'd like to say that any form of inventory where you can get all your four active characters' inventories on the same screen at the same time, and preferably´with individual inventories, would improve my experience of an RPG. Since DA2 didn't have that, there's room for improvement.

[Jonp382]

tonnactus wrote...

Jonp382 wrote...


But he/she was silent when speaking to another being which is a whole world of difference.

How that,when the voice in battles didnt match with someones imaginations??

As I wrote, the player can design their character around the voice chosen in character creation. You could make it up so that your character used his/her voice in a different way during dialog if you really wanted to though. The game wouldn't tell you that you're wrong.

[Sylvius the Mad]

tonnactus wrote...

How that,when the voice in battles didnt match with someones imaginations??

You could listen to most of each voice-set during character creation.  You knew the general tone of voice and many of the specific lines.  Ideally, yes, they would have laid out all of the possible speech events for you to consider, but knowing several of them is vaslty better than knowing none at all.

To even approach the failing of DA2, DAO would have required the player to choose a voice-set based on only a one-world description, rather than allowing the player to sample a variety of voice clips from each set.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Aldandil wrote...

My main gripe with NWN's inventory was that volume wasn't really much of an issue. Unless your character was very strong, you never ran any risk of filling up all six sheets of inventory grids before you were encumbered (but of course, you're not arguing to bring NWN's inventory back, just that it's a good source of inspiration). I also found it frustrating that all the items you picked up ended up at the first available slot, making it necessary to move things around for every looted chest (and the OC had a LOT of those).

I like the NWN system not because it modelled volume, but beaause it was player-sortable and presented a great many items on the screen at a time.  This allowed far more effecient inventory access.

A list inventory like we see in ME or either DA game forces the player to browse through a list looking for the thing he wants every single time.  That's far more time spent managing inventory than NWN ever offered.  I think people just don't realise how much time they spend dealing with their inventories in the newer games because those inventory events are, individually, much smaller.  But overall they consume far more time.

As for new items always apeparing in the first available slot, that's predictable behaviour.  You could arrange your inventory to leave space for that to happen.  Everything stackable stacked automatically wherever you'd sorted it, so you just needed to move new weapons or armour or anything you didn't already have (and for those, I would think you'd want to open the inventory to examine them right away anyway).

NWN's inventory system was faster and easier to use.  Measure it.

And, as a point on topic, I'd like to say that any form of inventory where you can get all your four active characters' inventories on the same screen at the same time, and preferably´with individual inventories, would improve my experience of an RPG. Since DA2 didn't have that, there's room for improvement.

Dungeon Siege.  The original Dungeon Siege had exactly what you describe, and each character's inventory was a sortable grid, and you could even buy pack mules to carry extra gear (and display those inventories on screen at the same time as the characters' as well).

[Get Magna Carter]

Over on the ME3 board Chris Priestly said they won't make an Ultimate version of ME2 before ME3 because of the impact it would have on the development of ME3
...Does this mean DA2 would have had more resources and so be better if the Ultimate version of Origins hadn't been made?

[Wozearly]

Get Magna Carter wrote...

Over on the ME3 board Chris Priestly said they won't make an Ultimate version of ME2 before ME3 because of the impact it would have on the development of ME3
...Does this mean DA2 would have had more resources and so be better if the Ultimate version of Origins hadn't been made?

Its a variation on the logic that not doing any DLC or expansions for DA:O would have made DA2 better, assuming those resources had been allocated to DA2 and not used elsewhere. And that the money made via the DLC could have been recouped through higher sales of DA2 (not a given).

The answer is almost certainly that it wouldn't have made a significant difference, because an Ultimate version doesn't require that much additional work from the developers. The problem is if you're trying to work on it while at a critical stage of something else (so take that as you will about ME3).

[Kail Ashton]

Act 3 & recycled dungeons, this has been covered 50 billion times now, even the dead get it, enough already

[LPPrince]

Atmosphere. DA2 had horrid atmosphere(opinion, fillies and gentlecolts). Due to many things.

I keep harping about the art style, and yes, part of the reason is the art style.

I feel DAO handled this much better. Felt more realistic.

Now, what I'm hoping for is that Bioware devs who play Skyrim will take some inspiration from its atmosphere.

They can never replicate it. Bioware doesn't make worlds like Bethesda does. BUT, they can see what's appealing from Skyrim's atmosphere and see what they can use in their own way.

For example, Skyrim's Northern Lights-

There was a video(now copyrighted, so unavailable) on youtube that showed nothing but Skyrim's rendition of The Northern Lights(better known to some as Auroras) for 5 minutes.

It. Was. Beautiful.

Black sky. White stars. Yet you saw the common green auroras, the not as common red auroras, and the rare blue auroras.

There was no reason to look up there. But when you did, you couldn't look away.

I watched that video many times. I immersed myself, put myself into the character's shoes.

I would do the same thing the player did. Just stand there and look up at the night sky.

Its not a story moment. Its not integral to the plot. Its simply there. Should you be at that spot around nightfall, you are blessed with one of the most beautiful sights ever seen in a video game.

This reminds me of the level of background detail in DAO. The ravens flying around the Tower of Ishal. The books laying all over The Circle Tower.

Dragon Age 2 sorely lacked any of this. No matter where I looked, nothing gave me a reason to keep looking at it.



Atmosphere. One of the many reasons why Dragon Age 2 was mediocre.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Atmosphere is an important driver of the emergent narrative. DA2 wasn't good about permitting emergent narrative.

Is it happens, atmosphere is the one thing I think ME2 did better than ME. ME2's atmosphere was pretty good.

[LPPrince]

DAO had a much better atmosphere for me because there were little details EVERYWHERE.

I already mentioned the books and the ravens. There's plenty more.

Thinking about DA2, I'm lost.

[TheBlackBaron]

I think a manually-sortable list would be a an excellent compromise for the next DA game's inventory. I personally don't really feel like I'm wasting tons of time with list inventories, but it presents the option to cut down on the amount of it for those that feel like they do.

I just really hope they don't go back to an NWN-style Tetris inventory. I hate hate hate inventory Tetris. Either I have the space for it or I don't. Don't make me go shift that Heal potion from the front tab to a back one because it's taking up one square that the suit of Full Plate needs. That is a severe time waster in my mind.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 07 novembre 2011 - 08:21 .

[Wozearly]

LPPrince wrote...

DAO had a much better atmosphere for me because there were little details EVERYWHERE.

I already mentioned the books and the ravens. There's plenty more.

Thinking about DA2, I'm lost.

Part of that spartan nature was an intentional design decision on cinematic style - having a relatively understated and non-distracting backdrop can be used to visually focus on what is happening in the foreground, generally with the characters - and to make sure that when there are things in the environment that you do want character's attention drawn to, such as that shiny treasure chest in the corner, it stands out all the more.

Its also a relative drain on art resources to spend time designing and placing objects that serve only as visual filler where no visual filler is actually required in that area for other reasons.

Speaking personally, I preferred DA:O's approach of attention to detail and comparatively understated art style across the board - substantially preferred it, to be honest.

[LPPrince]

Yeah, everything in the junk section was pointless. I want to be able to choose what armor my squaddies wear, not collect a bunch of useless junk I sell for a meager sum of coin.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I don't even like having plot items separated from the rest of the loot. Do what NWN did. Let me find plot items even if I don't have the relevant quest yet, and if I lose them then I lose them.

Choices and consequences.

[Wozearly]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't even like having plot items separated from the rest of the loot. Do what NWN did. Let me find plot items even if I don't have the relevant quest yet, and if I lose them then I lose them.

Choices and consequences.

Ah, kinda have to disagree with you there. Depending on how the quest is done and how the mechanics work, that approach can be incredibly frustrating when you realise that the random clay bowl in your junk loot that you scrapped an hour ago is actually the incredible holy grail of Andraste which has now been lost because the vendor has long since sold it on beyond your reach (ie, its despawned from his inventory). All because you happened to get the quest later than you 'should' have done.

That said, I don't overly like the idea of putting a massive sparkly "you don't know why, but this item is somehow important, let me put it in a part of your inventory that means you can't ever throw it away" because its immersion breaking if you don't already know its a quest item.

And I really didn't like the "you've found a rare book that you know is rare because you just somehow do, and you psychically know that someone in an area of town you've never been to before is looking for this book and would really value you surreptitiously passing it to them. They'll identify themselves by a massive great arrow hovering over their head and an inexplicable entry in your journal".

Although I'm not a huge fan of generic MMO mechanics, this is one of the odd things that has been done right in the past. Using the item description to be clear that there's something unusual about the object, or that you believe it has latent value, can be a halfway decent indicator even if you have no idea what it is or who might want it. Doubly so if you have somewhere to stash items for future retrieval that doesn't involve clogging up your inventory.

Finding out what the heck it might be for or who might want it, whilst not ruling out that there could be some red herrings where your character mistakenly believes something is valuable when its not (you could even, shock horror, tie this to the character's intelligence / intuition score), is then something interesting to explore. Or flog to the nearest vendor if you CBA.

I don't mind the odd facepalm moment where you realise that some throwaway decision you made can later come back to bite you, but IMO this is better done via decisions in questlines rather than decisions about your inventory. I personally feel there's more to work with and get interested in if decisions around how your character chose to act upon the world has an impact and consequence, even if its primarily flavour.

I'm less enthusiastic about knowing that something I threw away turned out to be a key part of a minor side quest, as that tends to reward only the psychic, the lucky, the replaying characters and/or the compulsive hoarders. For me, that would be throwing in a consequence whilst disguising the choice to the point where I didn't even recognise that there was one. Done well, that could be interesting on occasion, but it would be way too easy to do it badly.