384 réponses à ce sujet

[Anomaly-]

Persephone wrote...
Never mind that IMO there is nothing dumbed down about either DAII or JE.

With all due respect, I'm genuinely curious how you can think nothing was dumbed down (or if you'd rather, simplified) in DA2. I know people have different opinions on the game, but I had thought it was pretty much universally recognized that the game was simplified, at the very least.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 11 octobre 2011 - 10:32 .

[Morroian]

Anomaly- wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Never mind that IMO there is nothing dumbed down about either DAII or JE.

With all due respect, I'm genuinely curious how you can think nothing was dumbed down (or if you'd rather, simplified) in DA2. I know people have different opinions on the game, but I had thought it was pretty much universally recognized that the game was simplified, at the very least.

Simplified/streamlined doesn't mean dumbed down. Crafting was streamlined but not dumbed down because there was nothing to crafting in DAO anyway.

[Anomaly-]

Morroian wrote...
Simplified/streamlined doesn't mean dumbed down. Crafting was streamlined but not dumbed down because there was nothing to crafting in DAO anyway.

In one of her posts I didn't quote, she replied to someone saying Mike Laidlaw had admitted that DA2 was simplified, by saying that just because he said it doesn't mean she has to agree with it. That would imply that she doesn't think the game was dumbed down or simplified, which is why I allowed for either.

Besides that, I don't think we agree on what dumbed down means. My definition is anything that requires less thought and/or effort from the player. For example, dialogue options with icons indicating outcomes. If you want to romance someone, just pick the options with the heart next to them. You don't actually have to think it over beyond that. Clumping everything useful to your character into 2 attributes, with one being predominant. Again, takes much of the thought away from choosing your attributes. 1-2 item sets per act, being easy to find and clearly superior than everything else. You don't have to think much about choosing your equipment, just collect the sets. Companion armor can't be changed at all, so that actually requires no thought or input from you. If you see an upgrade, you buy it. Simple as that.

I agree DA:O's crafting wasn't as expansive as I would have liked, but I still much, much preferred crafting my poisons and potions to DA2's system. DA2's didn't require any skill investment, ingredient hunting, inventory management, or careful planning. By my definition, that's dumbed down. Even if you don't agree with that definition, you really can't deny it's simplified, at the very least.

Even quests and going from point A to point B. Strange quests you didn't even realize you were doing, because they didn't even have a starting point. You just find something somewhere and magically distinguish it from all the other junk as something important, and know who it belonged to. Walking through rooms or corridors where you can easily see by looking at the radar which path leads to an open room where you can expect to have a fight, and likely find a chest, and which path leads, predictably, to your objective. It's like playing DIablo 2 with a maphack. Again, by my definition, that's dumbed down. Whether you agree or not, there is no denying it's simplified.

[Persephone]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Jade Empire had a great, immersive, interesting, epic story. It's gameplay could rightly be said to suck ( though I liked it well enough, wasn't excellent, but decent enough ) but don't insult that game by comparing it to the trash of DA2.

You know I respect/like you a lot. But is such vicious hyperbole really necessary? Dear God, you ask for a game you like not to be insulted, yet insult another without a second thought. How about showing courtesy in general, rather than exclusively?

[naledgeborn]

Persephone wrote...

You know I respect/like you a lot. But is such vicious hyperbole really necessary? Dear God, you ask for a game you like not to be insulted, yet insult another without a second thought. How about showing courtesy in general, rather than exclusively?

You don't have to take it as a personal slight you know. You are not DA2. At least I don't think. End of the day different people like different things. 

Some people hate DA2.
I didn't like the vanilla game, but I'm enjoying the DLC.
You probably love it all.

Different people. Different things.

[Persephone]

Anomaly- wrote...

Morroian wrote...
Simplified/streamlined doesn't mean dumbed down. Crafting was streamlined but not dumbed down because there was nothing to crafting in DAO anyway.

Besides that, I don't think we agree on what dumbed down means. My definition is anything that requires less thought and/or effort from the player. For example, dialogue options with icons indicating outcomes. If you want to romance someone, just pick the options with the heart next to them. You don't actually have to think it over beyond that. Clumping everything useful to your character into 2 attributes, with one being predominant. Again, takes much of the thought away from choosing your attributes. 1-2 item sets per act, being easy to find and clearly superior than everything else. You don't have to think much about choosing your equipment, just collect the sets. Companion armor can't be changed at all, so that actually requires no thought or input from you. If you see an upgrade, you buy it. Simple as that.

I agree DA:O's crafting wasn't as expansive as I would have liked, but I still much, much preferred crafting my poisons and potions to DA2's system. DA2's didn't require any skill investment, ingredient hunting, inventory management, or careful planning. By my definition, that's dumbed down. Even if you don't agree with that definition, you really can't deny it's simplified, at the very least.

Even quests and going from point A to point B. Strange quests you didn't even realize you were doing, because they didn't even have a starting point. You just find something somewhere and magically distinguish it from all the other junk as something important, and know who it belonged to. Walking through rooms or corridors where you can easily see by looking at the radar which path leads to an open room where you can expect to have a fight, and likely find a chest, and which path leads, predictably, to your objective. It's like playing DIablo 2 with a maphack. Again, by my definition, that's dumbed down. Whether you agree or not, there is no denying it's simplified.

It's not like dialogue required much thought in that regard in DAO either. (Leliana ninja-mancing you was part of a bug now fixed by mods) This isn't Shakespeare and I for one never paid attention to the icons. A toggle to remove them would be nice for those who think otherwise.

DAO also had the two attributes idea as a basis. A basis I neither followed in DAO or DAII. I also always download mods to the effect of enhancing attributes, abilities, spells etc. Have done this since BGI & II and I still do it for DAO and DAII. So no biggie in my book. Same goes for armor sets. If I want more in either game (And I do), I get mods. Also use mods to dress up companions. So no problem there either.

Couldn't care less about crafting. I did miss stealth & stealing though.

Again, this is just me, but I preferred the Secondary Quests in DAII. While I do ignore the fetch quests you describe, they do not bother me.

As for the maps, same thing in DAO. Except for the bloated dungeons ala the DR and The Fade which weren't my faves to begin with. (The Skip The Fade mod is popular for a reason!)

[Persephone]

naledgeborn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

You know I respect/like you a lot. But is such vicious hyperbole really necessary? Dear God, you ask for a game you like not to be insulted, yet insult another without a second thought. How about showing courtesy in general, rather than exclusively?

You don't have to take it as a personal slight you know. You are not DA2. At least I don't think. End of the day different people like different things. 

Some people hate DA2.
I didn't like the vanilla game, but I'm enjoying the DLC.
You probably love it all.

Different people. Different things.

I don't take it as a personal slight. I merely wonder how one can ask for a game not to be insulted and then insult another in the same breath.

[Sutekh]

Anomaly- wrote...
For example, dialogue options with icons indicating outcomes. If you want to romance someone, just pick the options with the heart next to them. You don't actually have to think it over beyond that.

And yet there are still people, some being among those who lament the "dumbing down", who "accidentally" click the icon in question and then complain they've been ninjamanced. Imagine the state of things if there were no <3 to clearly indicate "Warning! This is flirting. If you click here, you flirt. The flirtee might flirt back."

Also,

Clumping everything useful to your character into 2 attributes, with one being predominant. Again, takes much of the thought away from choosing your attributes.

How is that different from DAO? 


About crafting, it wasn't simplified, it was stripped. There is no crafting in DA2. What you do isn't much different than buying a potion, except you're home. You even pay for it (with *spoilers* around once in the mansion, you could have just bought from him).

This said, given the crafting system in DAO, I'm not sure this isn't, in fact, better. Ingredient hunting and skill raising is interesting only if you have real crafting to look forward to. Otherwise, it's only tedious and soon becomes very mechanical, especially when you know where to find infinite source of such or such ingredient.

And last,

Even quests and going from point A to point B. Strange quests you didn't even realize you were doing, because they didn't even have a starting point. You just find something somewhere and magically distinguish it from all the other junk as something important, and know who it belonged to. Walking through rooms or corridors where you can easily see by looking at the radar which path leads to an open room where you can expect to have a fight, and likely find a chest, and which path leads, predictably, to your objective. It's like playing DIablo 2 with a maphack. Again, by my definition, that's dumbed down. Whether you agree or not, there is no denying it's simplified.

I still can't see how all that is different from DAO. Quest indicators (which, btw, you can deactivate) were already there, mini-map, shimmering around loot, which was seen from much further than in DA2, including through walls. Now you have to get close, and, again, you can turn it off.

Oh, and fedex quests too. Admittedly, the ones in DA2 where you stumble on something and magically know whom to return it to are asinine, to put it mildly.

DA2 was simplified, there's no denying it, even dumbed down in some areas. And, IMHO, quite needlessly. But I don't think they were in the ones you mentioned. Apart from dialogue where, apparently, it's not even enough 

Modifié par Sutekh, 12 octobre 2011 - 12:15 .

[Il Divo]

MorrigansLove wrote...

The story in Jade Empire was much better than Dragon Age 2's, also. Did Mike Laidlaw write Dragon Age 2?

Quite right. I'd go so far as to say that Jade Empire's story beat out pretty much everything Bioware has ever done including Origins, Baldur's Gate 1, and KotOR.

[naledgeborn]

Il Divo wrote...

MorrigansLove wrote...

The story in Jade Empire was much better than Dragon Age 2's, also. Did Mike Laidlaw write Dragon Age 2?

Quite right. I'd go so far as to say that Jade Empire's story beat out pretty much everything Bioware has ever done including Origins, Baldur's Gate 1, and KotOR.

I hate to agree. But Li the Strategist... now that was a "good" villian.

[Persephone]

naledgeborn wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

MorrigansLove wrote...

The story in Jade Empire was much better than Dragon Age 2's, also. Did Mike Laidlaw write Dragon Age 2?

Quite right. I'd go so far as to say that Jade Empire's story beat out pretty much everything Bioware has ever done including Origins, Baldur's Gate 1, and KotOR.

I hate to agree. But Li the Strategist... now that was a "good" villian.

Agreed. One of my fave RPG villains ever. I hate to admit it but I was quite surprised at his betrayal. Everyone kept telling me I should have seen it coming from a mile away.

[Il Divo]

Persephone wrote...

Agreed. One of my fave RPG villains ever. I hate to admit it but I was quite surprised at his betrayal. Everyone kept telling me I should have seen it coming from a mile away.

Everyone told me the same. It didn't stop the revelation from being absolutely epic.

Damn it. Where is In Exile when you need him?

Modifié par Il Divo, 12 octobre 2011 - 12:56 .

[Anomaly-]

Persephone wrote...
It's not like dialogue required much thought in that regard in DAO either. (Leliana ninja-mancing you was part of a bug now fixed by mods) This isn't Shakespeare and I for one never paid attention to the icons. A toggle to remove them would be nice for those who think otherwise.

It wasn't leaps and bounds better in DA:O, no, but it was better nonetheless, imo. While trying to romance someone, you had several options to choose from, each adding different amounts of approval depending on their personality, and
none were bluntly indicated by heart icons.

DAO also had the two attributes idea as a basis. A basis I neither followed in DAO or DAII. I also always download mods to the effect of enhancing attributes, abilities, spells etc. Have done this since BGI & II andI still do it for DAO and DAII. So no biggie in my book. Same goes for armor sets. If I want more in either game (And I do), I get mods. Also
use mods to dress up companions. So no problem there either.

Actually, DA:O had 3. Again, not immensely better, but better nonetheless. At least strength was required to be able to wear something. That's really the only attribute that makes sense for it. How is it that one piece of equipment requires strength to wear, while another requires dexterity? The requirements were just done that way to simplify things. In DA:O, you had to consider how much strength to invest in to equip better gear, while sacrificing other stats. In DA2, you just pump one stat until you see 100%, then start on the other.

As for mods, totally in agreement with you there. One of the biggest focuses of my own mod is to greatly expand on attributes, races and classes, further differentiating playstyles. I might have enjoyed DA2 much, much more if they had given us a toolset. I'm aware there are various cosmetic and minor gameplay tweak mods out there, but I'm talking about modifying the core game scripts. That's the level of reworking I would need to do, and it's simply not possible without a toolset.

As for the maps, same thing in DAO. Except for the bloated dungeons ala the DR and The Fade which weren't my faves to begin with. (The Skip The Fade mod is popular for a reason!)

I disagree. Again, I'm not claiming DA:O was immensely better, but still an improvement. I can think of quite a few areas in DA:O, including those you mentioned, as well as the brecillian forest, the werewolf lair, and the urn quest
where branching paths were too large and ambiguous to determine at a glance. The only place I can think of in DA2 where that is the case is the wounded coast, but because it's so heavily recycled like everywere else, you figure out where to go pretty quickly.

Sutekh wrote...
And yet there are still people, some being among those who lament the "dumbing down", who "accidentally" click the icon in question and then complain they've been ninjamanced. Imagine the state of things if there were no <3 to clearly indicate "Warning! This is flirting. If you click here, you flirt. The flirtee might flirt back."

Honestly, I don't know what to say in defense of those people. I actually liked mistakenly giving Zevran the wrong impression in DA:O, simply because I couldn't predict how he would react to my choice. Those kinds of things actually happen in real life, making our interactions seem much more fluid and realistic.

Also,

Clumping everything useful to your character into 2 attributes, with one being predominant. Again, takes much of the thought away from choosing your attributes.

How is that different from DAO? 

See above. DA:O wasn't a huge improvement, but still better. And at least further improvements can be made with the toolset.

About crafting, it wasn't simplified, it was stripped. There is no crafting in DA2. What you do isn't much different than buying a potion, except you're home. You even pay for it (with *spoilers* around once in the mansion, you could have just bought from him).

Well, yes, this is really what I meant.

This said, given the crafting system in DAO, I'm not sure this isn't, in fact, better. Ingredient hunting and skill raising is interesting only if you have real crafting to look forward to. Otherwise, it's only tedious and soon becomes very mechanical, especially when you know where to find infinite source of such or such ingredient.

I disagree that it's better, as skill investment, ingredient hunting and inventory management were things I enjoyed. I do agree that DA:O's system had flaws, such as the inability to craft more things and infinite resources you mentioned. But again, this kind of thing can be remedied with the toolset. What really irks me is that instead of improving the system they had, they just scrapped it and added the awkward afterthought you just described in DA2.

And last,

Even quests and going from point A to point B. Strange quests you didn't even realize you were doing, because they didn't even have a starting point. You just find something somewhere and magically distinguish it from all the other junk as something important, and know who it belonged to. Walking through rooms or corridors where you can easily see by looking at the radar which path leads to an open room where you can expect to have a fight, and likely find a chest, and which path leads, predictably, to your objective. It's like playing DIablo 2 with a maphack. Again, by my definition, that's dumbed down. Whether you agree or not, there is no denying it's simplified.

I still can't see how all that is different from DAO. Quest indicators (which, btw, you can deactivate) were already there, mini-map, shimmering around loot, which was seen from much further than in DA2, including through walls. Now you have to get close, and, again, you can turn it off.

See above. As for quest indicators, I tried turning them off. You are literally stabbing in the dark when you do so, because the quests were clearly designed with the indicators in mind. I outlined this when I wrote my review of DA2. DA:O, again, is not immensely superior in this regard, but I was able to find out what to do much more easily and comfortably for more quests in DA:O without the indicators.

I'm not sure why people seem to think that because certain things in DA:O weren't immensely better, that they weren't better at all. Coupled with the toolset functionality, those things can indeed become immensely better. My single greatest gripe with DA2 was that instead of improving the flawed things in DA:O, they just scrapped most of them, and replaced them with mechanics that, in my opinion, are clearly inferior.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 12 octobre 2011 - 02:32 .

[Joy Divison]

Persephone wrote...

It's not like dialogue required much thought in that regard in DAO either. (Leliana ninja-mancing you was part of a bug now fixed by mods) This isn't Shakespeare and I for one never paid attention to the icons. A toggle to remove them would be nice for those who think otherwise.

DAO also had the two attributes idea as a basis. A basis I neither followed in DAO or DAII. I also always download mods to the effect of enhancing attributes, abilities, spells etc. Have done this since BGI & II and I still do it for DAO and DAII. So no biggie in my book. Same goes for armor sets. If I want more in either game (And I do), I get mods. Also use mods to dress up companions. So no problem there either.

Couldn't care less about crafting. I did miss stealth & stealing though.

Again, this is just me, but I preferred the Secondary Quests in DAII. While I do ignore the fetch quests you describe, they do not bother me.

As for the maps, same thing in DAO. Except for the bloated dungeons ala the DR and The Fade which weren't my faves to begin with. (The Skip The Fade mod is popular for a reason!)

So DA2 without mods is simplified then?

[Sutekh]

Anomaly- wrote...

Actually, DA:O had 3. Again, not immensely better, but better nonetheless. At least strength was required to be able to wear something. That's really the only attribute that makes sense for it. How is it that one piece of equipment requires strength to wear, while another requires dexterity?

Try putting on a bodice or stockings and garters and come back to me about dexterity (and cunning) 

Seriously, though, when playing a rogue, I personally find it a PITA to have to pump up strength for the only purpose of being able to wear an armor, given that strength doesn't even factor in damage once Lethality has been acquired. Even Arcane Warriors - mages, no less - don't have to do that and can use full plate armor with their magic only. In DAO, rogues are the only ones penalized by the mandatory strength-to-wear-armor. I don't see how it is a good thing (compared to DA2).

Of course, I'm talking about light armor here. 

In DA2, you just pump one stat until you see 100%, then start on the other.

Err... no. That's not how it works. Exceeding 100% is possible and effective. There's no ceiling, there. Actually, I find myself raising stats the exact same way than in DAO when playing a mage, and as a rogue the only difference is I don't have to put anything in useless strength (unless I want to wear those heavy armors, since they're not class-limited).

Now, the maps. I didn't understand you were talking about the maps themselves (the topography). In that case, yes, IMO, DA2's are indeed much, much simpler (and DAO much, much better, but I'm one of those who loved both the DR and the Fade, and I actually liked the Brecilian forest because of its "complexity" - even though they're not that complex, actually)

I disagree that it's better, as skill investment, ingredient hunting and inventory management were things I enjoyed. I do agree that DA:O's system had flaws, such as the inability to craft more things and infinite resources you mentioned. But again, this kind of thing can be remedied with the toolset. What really irks me is that instead of improving the system they had, they just scrapped it and added the awkward afterthought you just described in DA2.

Well, I'm a sucker for crafting (and inventory management too), but I'd rather have no system at all than one who becomes tedious after a quick while. And don't get me started on rune-crafting. I swear those people at the Vigil must have thought the Commander and Anders (usually the rune-crafter) were complete lunatics. What with them keeping going in and out of the throne room because "Darn, I'm missing a rune to reach Master level, let's go buy one!" repeated a hundred times. Not mentioning that the realism of boiling your potions and poisons right in the middle of the road was a bit shaky.

I'm not sure why people seem to think that because certain things in DA:O weren't immensely better, that they weren't better at all.

You're kinda preaching to the choir. I prefer DAO by a long mile. But I like DA2 too, and there are areas where it's better, and also areas where it's not worse. Different maybe, but not objectively worse.

Coupled with the toolset functionality, those things can indeed become immensely better. My single greatest gripe with DA2 was that instead of improving the flawed things in DA:O, they just scrapped most of them, and replaced them with mechanics that, in my opinion, are clearly inferior.

I myself use a lot of mods, but never gameplay mods, and I don't think it's fair to compare the games by factoring in the toolset. First, console players don't give a rat's tail about it. Second, if DA2 had a toolset, maybe those things you really don't like would have been made better and to your taste?

Modifié par Sutekh, 12 octobre 2011 - 02:46 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Persephone wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Jade Empire had a great, immersive, interesting, epic story. It's gameplay could rightly be said to suck ( though I liked it well enough, wasn't excellent, but decent enough ) but don't insult that game by comparing it to the trash of DA2.

You know I respect/like you a lot. But is such vicious hyperbole really necessary? Dear God, you ask for a game you like not to be insulted, yet insult another without a second thought. How about showing courtesy in general, rather than exclusively?

Exclusively? Nice of you to forget that when we first heard of the DA2 changes ( set voiced protagonist, not in Fereldan, change combat etc. ) I defended Bioware on these forums for them...well the laugh's on me for that.

I didn't go into DA2 with some idiotic expectations like others did who wanted the same combat, same PC ( their pet Warden ) or Fereldan. I thought DA2 was going to do something more then the cliche BS of DA:O...well it did and it sucked.  I don't care for the argument..."Oh but it's not a classical RPG so it sucks." or "Waves, waves, waves! They just suck" those are just surface problems of DA2.

I am absoultely annoyed when people say TW2 is trash because they combat just won't let them own everything in 2 seconds, nevermind the gorgeous presenation, excellent difficulty for those seeking a challenge, great VA and awesome story. Nevermind real story choices with consequences.

What does DA2 have? A set protagonist whose day job is to slaughter as many people as possible. No reasons needed! A city where madness prevails ( and they even try doing a ****** poor job of explaining it ) is apparently only 2 square miles. A poorly done cartonish looking game which has only TWO Good points: Bethany and some of the companions Hawke has, some not all. 

There's no motivation for Hawke's actions, and ACT III is just incredibly stupid. The journey along the way, while decently done is just destroyed by a very **** ending. Legacy? That incredibly DLC? Still same **** combat, and no bloody choices at all! The game even laughs at you if you side with Jeneka.

Mark of the Assassin? Some interesting story bits, but still no reason for why Hawke would even helop Tallis in the first place and still the same **** combat.

When I say **** combat I say on Nightmare, since the game is zero challenge on all other dificulties...and thus boring ( though I am not sure what is worse boring or frustrating as it is on nightmare ).

I've argued for many games. ME2, Starcraft, WoW, TW2. I do know the flaws of each of these games very very well and I've never shied away from that. ME2, SC and WoW with their bad stories, TW2 with glitches, bugs and some story problems on Iorveth's path, but I hate DA2 and I've put a lot of thought into why.

EDIT: Checked it myself, but even Mark of the Assassin has no real choice in it, thanks Bioware for not caring at all of player motivations!

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 12 octobre 2011 - 04:00 .

[Anomaly-]

Sutekh wrote...
Try putting on a bodice or stockings and garters and come back to me about dexterity (and cunning) 

Besides the fact that I can't imagine any reason I would ever wear either of those, neither have any weight, nor provide any protection.

Seriously, though, when playing a rogue, I personally find it a PITA to have to pump up strength for the only purpose of being able to wear an armor, given that strength doesn't even factor in damage once Lethality has been acquired. Even Arcane Warriors - mages, no less - don't have to do that and can use full plate armor with their magic only. In DAO, rogues are the only ones penalized by the mandatory strength-to-wear-armor. I don't see how it is a good thing (compared to DA2).

It's a good thing, because it makes much more sense. Like I said, the only attribute that makes any sense as a requirement to wear equipment is strength. Sure, it's more convenient to clump more of the things you need into fewer attributes, but gameplay logic suffers, and it robs you of any variety and/or customization. I LIKE that I can choose between focusing more on strength for better equipment and base damage (I actually nerfed Lethality's effect), or sacrificing that in lieu of higher crit rate, crit damage, better attack/dodge ratings, better resistances, more stamina, etc. Having those choices is immensely important to me. I also like finding a piece of equipment with + stats that I don't normally use, and still being able to gain something from it.

Err... no. That's not how it works. Exceeding 100% is possible and effective. There's no ceiling, there. Actually, I find myself raising stats the exact same way than in DAO when playing a mage, and as a rogue the only difference is I don't have to put anything in useless strength (unless I want to wear those heavy armors, since they're not class-limited).

Well, yes, it is still effective because you will drop below 100% as things scale around you (another thing I despise), but then you just drop a few more points in to get back to 100%, and repeat as necessary. The point is, you never have to think outside of that two attribute box (if you do, you will just nerf yourself), and you can even just focus on one and stay pretty well-rounded.

In that case, yes, IMO, DA2's are indeed much, much simpler (and DAO much, much better, but I'm one of those who loved both the DR and the Fade, and I actually liked the Brecilian forest because of its "complexity" - even though they're not that complex, actually)

I liked those segments too, not sure why they get so much hate. The fade can get a little tedious, just because nothing ever changes (no item drops, attribute bonuses and mob encounters always the same), but I still liked it.

Well, I'm a sucker for crafting (and inventory management too), but I'd rather have no system at all than one who becomes tedious after a quick while. And don't get me started on rune-crafting. I swear those people at the Vigil must have thought the Commander and Anders (usually the rune-crafter) were complete lunatics. What with them keeping going in and out of the throne room because "Darn, I'm missing a rune to reach Master level, let's go buy one!" repeated a hundred times. Not mentioning that the realism of boiling your potions and poisons right in the middle of the road was a bit shaky.

I'd much rather they improve upon the current system, than have no system at all. I also modded the crafting skills in DA:O to make for more interesting progression and do away with some of those flaws.

You're kinda preaching to the choir. I prefer DAO by a long mile. But I like DA2 too, and there are areas where it's better, and also areas where it's not worse. Different maybe, but not objectively worse.

For me, there are just too many areas that are worse. However, the original point I was making is that whether or not you think they are worse, they are objectively simpler.

I myself use a lot of mods, but never gameplay mods, and I don't think it's fair to compare the games by factoring in the toolset. First, console players don't give a rat's tail about it. Second, if DA2 had a toolset, maybe those things you really don't like would have been made better and to your taste?

I'm the opposite, gameplay mods are primarily what I do/use. The story doesn't change much once you've seen it the first time (even moreso with DA2), so gameplay is my prime motivation to replay it.

In the beginning I was comparing the vanilla games. I do think it's fair to factor in the toolset though, as it's part of the whole package, and has allowed me to modify DA:O just the way I like it. And yes, I already admitted that I might have enjoyed DA2 much, much more if we'd had a toolset. But we didn't, and no amount of DLC is going to change the core game mechanics enough to make me interested in playing it again.

I still play DA:O to this day, while I haven't touched DA2 since my 1.5 playthroughs back in March. The toolset is the primary reason for that. People like to mention DLC improvements when talking about DA2, so I don't see why mentioning the toolset is any less fair.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 12 octobre 2011 - 05:27 .

[Morroian]

Anomaly- wrote...

See above. As for quest indicators, I tried turning them off. You are literally stabbing in the dark when you do so, because the quests were clearly designed with the indicators in mind. I outlined this when I wrote my review of DA2. DA:O, again, is not immensely superior in this regard, but I was able to find out what to do much more easily and comfortably for more quests in DA:O without the indicators.

Most rpgs seem to have quest indicators. I'm playing Fallout New Vegas at the moment and it has them.

[Anomaly-]

Morroian wrote...
Most rpgs seem to have quest indicators. I'm playing Fallout New Vegas at the moment and it has them.

Yes, that's true, but I've never before seen such a stark contrast between playing with them and without them than in DA2.

One quest in particular always comes to mind. I think it was something to do with the Carta, or some bandits anyway. You're in Hightown, kill them, and then I believe it's Isabella (it might have been a personal quest of her's, not sure, haven't played since March) who says that their leader has a note on him and that we should go to their hideout. With quest markers on, you open up your map, see a glowing arrow over Darktown, go there, and see another glowing arrow over a trap door labelled "Bandit Hideout". You didn't have to decipher anything, find anything, ask anyone for information, it couldn't have been any simpler. However, with quest markers off, all you have is the mention that you should find their hideout. You don't actually see or get to read the note that was allegedly on their leader, no one gives you any information, and you have nothing to go on. Their hideout could be in the wounded coast for all you know.

This is an example of a quest that clearly relies on map markers to the point that when using them it's a walk in the park, while when not using them it's nigh on impossible. This might not be true for every quest, but I definitely remember experiencing this frustration for the duration of the game, so it's pretty common. Again, a lot of the details are fuzzy because I haven't played in so long.

It's true that most RPGs are going the map marker route now, but I've seen it done much more subtlely, without the contrast of making the quest far too easy with them, but nearly impossible without them.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 12 octobre 2011 - 06:12 .

[Persephone]

Joy Divison wrote...

Persephone wrote...

It's not like dialogue required much thought in that regard in DAO either. (Leliana ninja-mancing you was part of a bug now fixed by mods) This isn't Shakespeare and I for one never paid attention to the icons. A toggle to remove them would be nice for those who think otherwise.

DAO also had the two attributes idea as a basis. A basis I neither followed in DAO or DAII. I also always download mods to the effect of enhancing attributes, abilities, spells etc. Have done this since BGI & II and I still do it for DAO and DAII. So no biggie in my book. Same goes for armor sets. If I want more in either game (And I do), I get mods. Also use mods to dress up companions. So no problem there either.

Couldn't care less about crafting. I did miss stealth & stealing though.

Again, this is just me, but I preferred the Secondary Quests in DAII. While I do ignore the fetch quests you describe, they do not bother me.

As for the maps, same thing in DAO. Except for the bloated dungeons ala the DR and The Fade which weren't my faves to begin with. (The Skip The Fade mod is popular for a reason!)

So DA2 without mods is simplified then?

Same way as DAO is, I suppose. Except DAO required mod fixes for me to finish (The last third of the vanilla game is seriously bugged to oblivion, as are Leliana & Zevran)

[Costin_Razvan]

Same way as DAO is, I suppose. Except DAO required mod fixes for me to finish (The last third of the vanilla game is seriously bugged to oblivion, as are Leliana & Zevran)

There are bugs, and the final battle was just unbearable for me with animation lag, but frankly I would rather play the unpolished, unmoded DA:O then I would DA2, and I did so 3 times.

However, Loghain saying "A man is made by the quality of his enemies." beats the living crap out of much of DA2.

Loghain saying "You have proven....a friend." ( though it does require a cheat, yes cheat not mod though I assume there is one, to get friendly with him ) eclipses DA2 and many other games put together in the raw emotional value.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 12 octobre 2011 - 07:05 .

[Persephone]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Same way as DAO is, I suppose. Except DAO required mod fixes for me to finish (The last third of the vanilla game is seriously bugged to oblivion, as are Leliana & Zevran)

There are bugs, and the final battle was just unbearable for me with animation lag, but frankly I would rather play the unpolished, unmoded DA:O then I would DA2, and I did so 3 times.

However, Loghain saying "A man is made by the quality of his enemies." beats the living crap out of much of DA2.

Loghain saying "You have proven....a friend." ( though it does require a cheat, yes cheat not mod though I assume there is one, to get friendly with him ) eclipses DA2 and many other games put together in the raw emotional value.

I do adore that Maric quote. Though it's not really something I'd imagine coming from TST or TC Maric.

There is a Mod to achieve Friendly status (And get some more very moving lines you only get on "Friendly". Such as a different reaction to the question whether you are friends or not in the DR dialogue) with Loghain, I'd definitely recommend it. (Ejoslin made it) 

And kudos to you for using that line in your tribute vid!

Modifié par Persephone, 12 octobre 2011 - 07:14 .

[MorrigansLove]

Well obviously Mike Laidlaw should stick to writing then!

I rest my case.

[Gileadan]

Joy Divison wrote...
So DA2 without mods is simplified then?

Yes, greatly.

In Origins, you had skills like Coercion (Persuasion / Intimidation) which gave you a reason to increase your cunning (which helped with persuasion) even if your character was not a rogue. Intimidation used strength instead. The Coercion skill gave you the ability to avoid fights and settle things peacefully by either talking sense into people or scaring the hell out of them. Sometimes you could use it to get information out of NPCs you wouldn't have gotten otherwise, and so on.

DA2 scrapped all this for a simpler dialogue system where your character's attributes and skills no longer mattered, and an icon told you whether you were being nice, snarky, mean or flirty. I'd call that simplified alright.

[Persephone]

Gileadan wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...
So DA2 without mods is simplified then?

DA2 scrapped all this for a simpler dialogue system where your character's attributes and skills no longer mattered, and an icon told you whether you were being nice, snarky, mean or flirty. I'd call that simplified alright.

Er, no. Coercion and Intimidation are still there, they are not active skills however and the success of either now depends on Hawke's personality. (Seeing Intimidation failing is loads of fun in DAII IMO). And attributes & skills do matter, certainly. Same way as in DAO? No. Do I miss part of that? Yes. But I'd rather use the DAII mechanics than go back to the ludicrous Approval system and skill dots allowing me to "persuade" characters into 180% personality flips. But that's just me.