157 réponses à ce sujet

[BatmanPWNS]

filetemo wrote...

what's a politician going to do? talk down to death th reapers?

"don't kill us all, just vote for your candidate and wait till we lower your taxes!"

And what will a soldier do? Go right in and die instantly.

[jamesp81]

Chewin3 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
History is clear. To solve galactic problems, it isn't 'politics' that have succeded. 'Politics' is the problem. You want something solved, ask a good soldier.

This is in fact one disappointment in ME for me. Just as you said in your post, every race seem to have come down to the concluson that them one with the bigger gun gets the prize. And pretty much every galactic conflict we've heared about has been concluded with the aid of fire arms. Sometimes It feels like developers doesn't want it to get to complicated so they put just something overly primitive way for people to understand the importance on the matter, like all out war, good vs. evil, evil must be stopped b/c they are evil.

That's why I respect more games like The Witcher with it's political views.

Which reflects reality much more closely than games like The Witcher, which I couldn't be bothered enough to play beyond the opening battle.

Everything, whether it's good or bad, is maintained at the point of a sword.  Whether it's a free republic ruled by its people, or the worst authoritarian dictatorship, they are both maintained by the threat and willingness to use deadly force to protect them.

[sponge56]

filetemo wrote...

what's a politician going to do? talk down to death th reapers?

"don't kill us all, just vote for your candidate and wait till we lower your taxes!"

...There are still politicians in facism mate

[filetemo]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

filetemo wrote...

what's a politician going to do? talk down to death th reapers?

"don't kill us all, just vote for your candidate and wait till we lower your taxes!"

And what will a soldier do? Go right in and die instantly.

then there's no way to win in ME3 I suppose

[jamesp81]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Chewin3 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
History is clear. To solve galactic problems, it isn't 'politics' that have succeded. 'Politics' is the problem. You want something solved, ask a good soldier.

This is in fact one disappointment in ME for me. Just as you said in your post, every race seem to have come down to the concluson that them one with the bigger gun gets the prize. And pretty much every galactic conflict we've heared about has been concluded with the aid of fire arms. Sometimes It feels like developers doesn't want it to get to complicated so they put just something overly primitive way for people to understand the importance on the matter, like all out war, good vs. evil, evil must be stopped b/c they are evil.

That's why I respect more games like The Witcher with it's political views.

I agree that it doesn't get much more basic than 'military characters = good and noble with rare exception, politicians = useless counterproductive sleazebags.'

I'd blame it on an American cultural romanticism of the military, and overall militarization of US culture, if Bioware weren't Canadian.

Militarization of US culture?  That's rather extraordinarily laughable.  A very small percentage of this country's people ever put on uniform.  The culture here is far from militarized, at least in the way you're thinking.

As for romanticizing the military.  Yes, we do that.  Shamelessly.  One of the things I love about this place.

[filetemo]

sponge56 wrote...

filetemo wrote...

what's a politician going to do? talk down to death th reapers?

"don't kill us all, just vote for your candidate and wait till we lower your taxes!"

...There are still politicians in facism mate

too bad reapers don't give a damn about politics

[Killjoy Cutter]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Fascism is more than just a strong centralized government with an effective military that exerts extensive foreign influence. Otherwise most if not all successful states in the history of mankind would be considered Fascist, including for example the U.S. under Franklin Roosevelt, France under Louis XIV, China under Emperor Taizong. Evidently, none of these states were even remotely Fascist.

From Wikipedia:

"Fascism holds opposition and negation to class identity and many ideologies and political systems: it is anti-anarchist, anti-communist, anti-conservative, anti-democratic, anti-individualist, anti-liberal, anti-parliamentary, anti-bourgeois and anti-proletarian. It entails a distinctive type of anti-capitalism and is typically, with a few exceptions, anti-clerical. It rejects egalitarianism, materialism, and rationalism in favour of action, discipline, hierarchy, spirit and will."

Mass Effect promotes none of the above Fascist ideals. It actually has very little to do with Fascism at all. A lot of people bring up Fascism simply because they think the word sounds cool, without actually knowing what it means.

I was going to write a long post in response to this thread, but you've just about covered it. 

"Fascism" as used in the OP is just a buzzword, misapplied.

[BatmanPWNS]

filetemo wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

filetemo wrote...

what's a politician going to do? talk down to death th reapers?

"don't kill us all, just vote for your candidate and wait till we lower your taxes!"

And what will a soldier do? Go right in and die instantly.

then there's no way to win in ME3 I suppose

Then that's a glorious and beautiful ending to the series.

 I think I have manly tears coming from this ending.

[sorentoft]

filetemo wrote...

what's a politician going to do? talk down to death th reapers?

"don't kill us all, just vote for your candidate and wait till we lower your taxes!"

I think the reapers are just having a bad monday. I mean they wake up with one stellar hangover after getting royally wasted on Protheans with the Galaxy basically having gone bonkers with hairless apes, blue space bimbos and extremely fast talking little green men in the meantime. Not to mention Sovereign managed to get himself shot down in a drunken haze of Vanguard.  And then when they finally wash away that Shepard from their nice, clean Galaxy it comes back!  Oh yeah, and Shepard ruins and STEALS their collector toys. I'd be angry too.

[Killjoy Cutter]

jamesp81 wrote...

Chewin3 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
History is clear. To solve galactic problems, it isn't 'politics' that have succeded. 'Politics' is the problem. You want something solved, ask a good soldier.

This is in fact one disappointment in ME for me. Just as you said in your post, every race seem to have come down to the concluson that them one with the bigger gun gets the prize. And pretty much every galactic conflict we've heared about has been concluded with the aid of fire arms. Sometimes It feels like developers doesn't want it to get to complicated so they put just something overly primitive way for people to understand the importance on the matter, like all out war, good vs. evil, evil must be stopped b/c they are evil.

That's why I respect more games like The Witcher with it's political views.

Which reflects reality much more closely than games like The Witcher, which I couldn't be bothered enough to play beyond the opening battle.

Everything, whether it's good or bad, is maintained at the point of a sword.  Whether it's a free republic ruled by its people, or the worst authoritarian dictatorship, they are both maintained by the threat and willingness to use deadly force to protect them.

The world is full of bad people with power.  Even the best of people, with the best of intentions, must be ready to do hard things in defense of their society, friends, families, selves, and property. 

This is true at the level of the individual, and at the level of societies. 

[sponge56]

filetemo wrote...


too bad reapers don't give a damn about politics

And?  I dont give a damn about the west london sewage system, its still important though

[Kusy]

Absolutely all political government and rule ideals such as democracy, communism and fascism are based around the foolish assumption that nobody will abuse their power - an assumption contradicting human nature.

Democracy giving more safeguards to power abuse than any other system, is unarguably the best political solution in times of peace. In times of war fascism might be useful but then again, what really is needed is dictatorship centered around one strong and charismatic character, and after the war is won he must be instantly stripped of his power or he will abuse it, most likely to ensure his further rule.

Another thing is that you can't call fascism by it's name. There's a stigma on the word. It must be introduced silently so the masses follow, full mobilization, militarization - of course, but never calling it by name. Saying "fascists of the galaxy, unite" you doom yourself and your cause.

[mango smoothie]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

mango smoothie wrote...

mango smoothie wrote...

      Throughout history it's not specifically military that goes in and saves the day it's certain people. Some examples Paul Revere he was not military, but he help start the American Revolution. Charlie Wilson a politician single handly brought down the Soviet Union using politics. So it's not military it's certain people, some turn out to be military people, but not all. In fact most of the time when military takes complete control and deals with the problem themselves it turns the goverment into a dictatorship/police state.    

Also another person to add who was a politician that change things dramatically was James K. Polk who manage to claim most of the southwest, gained the Oregan territory from the british, and annexed Texas. He gained all those territories for the Union and he was a Politician not a military man.

I think you missed a (admittedly subtle) point:

This thread isn't about how politics/military work in real life, but how they are depicted in Mass Effect.

In reality, military-governments have been a dime a dozen, and successful ones nearly an oxymoron. Fascism, for all its faults, also never made good on its claims for 'decisive' or 'strong' governance: the bureacracy and politics could be just as stifiling. There have been good military officers who made good politicians (and vice versa), but the idea that military leaders are always better and civilian politicians always bad is  laughable fallacy that doesn't stand to history...

but does in Mass Effect, where politicians are **** and the entire galaxy fixes itself in short order when Commander Shepard isn't held back by the buracracy and politics (which are often the biggest obstacle to saving the day).

I apologize for not staing this in my posts, but I was just pointing out examples of times when politcians, manage to accomplish great things. I get what you are saying, and know what you mean was just pointing out examples, and how I wish Bioware would show some strength in the politics of Mass Effect. Once again I apologize for not stating this, I was rushing with the post as I had to go to a orientation for a culinary competition.

Modifié par mango smoothie, 08 octobre 2011 - 11:45 .

[Display Name Owner]

I suppose it could be argued that as a Spectre / Spec Ops hero, Shep's job is to solve problems that the Council / Alliance can't solve through diplomatic means. The political successes aren't events Shepard really needs to be involved with, only the failures. But then again, you have examples like being impounded in ME1, and the Council and Alliance being presented as basically ineffectual in ME2.

Interesting points OP.

[BongoTheBear]

Mass Effect is a game, a straight-forward thrid person shooter with some rpg elements, don't expect a philosophic over the top masterpiece with an extremely well thought out version of the near future. The game history and the storyline possibilities have to work together with the gameplay.

And in a shooter, most of the time you just shoot. Or how do you imagine ME running around talking and debating with other people in long profound dialouges? -> how it probably would make more sense in real life... (this gameplay...(though maybe even fun)...it's not working in this kind of game)

So don't overvalue the lack of gameplay and storyline options in this great game series.

Modifié par BongoTheBear, 08 octobre 2011 - 11:47 .

[filetemo]

sorentoft wrote...

filetemo wrote...

what's a politician going to do? talk down to death th reapers?

"don't kill us all, just vote for your candidate and wait till we lower your taxes!"

I think the reapers are just having a bad monday. I mean they wake up with one stellar hangover after getting royally wasted on Protheans with the Galaxy basically having gone bonkers with hairless apes, blue space bimbos and extremely fast talking little green men in the meantime. Not to mention Sovereign managed to get himself shot down in a drunken haze of Vanguard.  And then when they finally wash away that Shepard from their nice, clean Galaxy it comes back!  Oh yeah, and Shepard ruins and STEALS their collector toys. I'd be angry too.

then ME3 ending consists in Shepard telling the reapers to adress themselves to their congresist of choice

"ME4: Presidential run" a MMORPG were different factions compete to bring their issues first to the Senate, help salarians improve their interstate roads before Turian steel workers get their life insurances upped.Who's gonna get the most bang for their taxes buck first?
Download the demo at Origin ™

[mauro2222]

jamesp81 wrote...


Militarization of US culture?  That's rather extraordinarily laughable.  A very small percentage of this country's people ever put on uniform.  The culture here is far from militarized, at least in the way you're thinking.

As for romanticizing the military.  Yes, we do that.  Shamelessly.  One of the things I love about this place.

What? That you do things shamelessly, or romanticizing the military?

[filetemo]

sponge56 wrote...

filetemo wrote...


too bad reapers don't give a damn about politics

And?  I dont give a damn about the west london sewage system, its still important though

you can be dealt with with a pistol shot. A reaper does not.

[Quething]

Isn't that the theory behind the quarian Admiralty Board? They're allowed to override the civilian government, but only if they quit afterward.

I don't have any particular interest in quarians in and of themselves, but I do think their government and their weird evolution from martial law into representative democracy is pretty interesting.

[Kusy]

jamesp81 wrote...
Militarization of US culture?  That's rather extraordinarily laughable.  A very small percentage of this country's people ever put on uniform.  The culture here is far from militarized, at least in the way you're thinking.
As for romanticizing the military.  Yes, we do that.  Shamelessly.  One of the things I love about this place.

I like how you used culture and US in the same sentence. It amuses me.

Modifié par Mr.Kusy, 08 octobre 2011 - 11:49 .

[sponge56]

filetemo wrote...

you can be dealt with with a pistol shot. A reaper does not.

...I dont get your point, a reaper can be shot..just with a bigger gun

Modifié par sponge56, 08 octobre 2011 - 11:52 .

[filetemo]

sponge56 wrote...

filetemo wrote...

you can be dealt with with a pistol shot. A reaper does not.

...I dont get a point, a reaper can be shot..just with a bigger gun

which will be provided by a soldier, not a politician.

the only good thing politicians could do is "hello citizens. we are getting invaded, so join the army. everyone. stop working, go grab a rifle. Scientists, start working exclusively on war tech. Generals of the army, stop fighting the neighbor country and fly to space to fight the reapers. That is all, thanks. Vote for me if we survive."

[Golden Owl]

The ME politians seem much like real life pollies to me....only in it for themselves and bury their heads in the sand when things become inconvieniant for them. Though by the same token, Military rule would certainly be a big problem without the pollies involvment, the first contact war wasn't going to cease until the council stepped in.

Modifié par Golden Owl, 08 octobre 2011 - 11:58 .

[sponge56]

filetemo wrote...


which will be provided by a soldier, not a politician.

the only good thing politicians could do is "hello citizens. we are getting invaded, so join the army. everyone. stop working, go grab a rifle. Scientists, start working exclusively on war tech. Generals of the army, stop fighting the neighbor country and fly to space to fight the reapers. That is all, thanks. Vote for me if we survive."

mmm yeah naive much.  All warring nations have governments and politicians im afraid, read some history

[Kaiser Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, now that Cerberus has shown its true colors, my attacks have become a shade easier.

Huh? What true colors? Spoil it for me. :-)

Oh, the whole Reaper allegiance thing.

Oh come on, at least try to be funny/original and say "orange". Jeez...