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[TheShogunOfHarlem]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The root of all evil in this universe, or at least the source of all obstacles, nearly always comes from 'politics.'

'Politics' is the dirty word in the history of this galaxy, even more than 'Reapers.' If it weren't for 'politics', after all, we'd all do the blatantly obvious thing and join forces against the Reapers... and all those other pesky problems that take clear-thinking, straight-talking, honest (military) types to resolve simply and effectively. If a soldier-type can't solve a problem, it's because politicians are holding him or her back from doing their job.... and if a politician actually does something good, it's because a military type pushed them to it.

Just think about it, ladies and gentlemen. How often have you had to go out of your way to get the tools you need to do you job, simply because the damn bureacrats only gave you star charts from 2183? How often has it been the politicians holding you back from solving your problems, and how many times has it been politicians who cause them in the first place, and then refuse to acknowledge them? Ilos, Horizon, any time 'the Terminus' has been raised.

Hell, the only reason we stand to lose the war against the Reapers is because the damn dumb bureacrats have stuck their head in the sand for the past few years, rather than building weapons.

Who recognizes problems? Who solves them? Who gets things done? Military types do, that's who. Politicians refused to recognize the dangers of Saren? It took a military ship willing to mutiny in order to beat him. The Krogan threaten to surpass the genophage? The STG, not politicians, solve the problem. The Rachni overrun the borders? It took soldiers, not 'statemen' to stop them. And just who does a better job at managing piracy: Turian patrols, or Asari 'soft power'?

History is clear. To solve galactic problems, it isn't 'politics' that have succeded. 'Politics' is the problem. You want something solved, ask a good soldier.

Eveyone else? The rulers, the civilians who rule these fine military men and women?

They're useless, nearly treasonously so. All of them. The Council doesn't want to admit there's a problem, and is too afraid to move. The Asari are decadent democracies, content in their veneer of civility even as they alone on the Council continue slavery, unwilling to face facts of galactic society and militarize. The Salarian daltrasses play their intrigue, and leave the real work to the woefully undersized STG. And let's not start on the Alliance parliament, with bigots and corporate-interests calling the shots.

There's only one species that even somewhat does it right: the Turians, where citizenship is measured in the merit of blood shed, years spent in service, and in which service is a precondition. The Heirarchy doesn't cause problems: it solves them. And the Heirarchy doesn't solve them by talking: the Heirarchy employs the only true problem-solvers of the Mass Effect galaxy, the military. They aren't afraid to do what it takes.

The Turians are strong because not only they are willing to bomb their foes back into the stone age, but because after then they annex the defeated, incorporate them, raise them into something of value as new soldiers for the Turian imperialism. And the galaxy will survive the Reapers, IF it survives the Reapers, because of that sort of strength. The galaxy needs more militaristic, imperialistic powers, not less.

The galaxy won't be saved by a Matriarch's philosophy, or a Daltrass's scheme. It will not be saved by the appeal of decadent democracies, or corporate greed.

The salvation of the galaxy will come from the barrel of a gun, a gun held by soldiers. We need that soldier. We need many of them.

The Council has failed. Democracy has failed. Communism has failed. Corporatism has failed. All the other methods have failed. There is only one effective form of power in this universe, and we need it.

Draft your politicians. Occupy your bureacrats. The galaxy needs strong leadership. Leadership with integrity, purpose, and ability, long held back by politics. We need a galaxy run by the military, for the military, and of the military, if we are to have any chance against the Reapers.

Fascists of the galaxy, unite!

In reference to the bolded/underlined parts. Fascism and Corporatism actually go good together. Mussolini said so.

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

[filetemo]

sponge56 wrote...

mmm yeah naive much.  All warring nations have governments and politicians im afraid, read some history

I'm having trouble finding a part of our history where we were invaded by sentient warships, for reference, if anything.

Modifié par filetemo, 09 octobre 2011 - 12:02 .

[Dean_the_Young]

mango smoothie wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

mango smoothie wrote...

mango smoothie wrote...

      Throughout history it's not specifically military that goes in and saves the day it's certain people. Some examples Paul Revere he was not military, but he help start the American Revolution. Charlie Wilson a politician single handly brought down the Soviet Union using politics. So it's not military it's certain people, some turn out to be military people, but not all. In fact most of the time when military takes complete control and deals with the problem themselves it turns the goverment into a dictatorship/police state.    

Also another person to add who was a politician that change things dramatically was James K. Polk who manage to claim most of the southwest, gained the Oregan territory from the british, and annexed Texas. He gained all those territories for the Union and he was a Politician not a military man.

I think you missed a (admittedly subtle) point:

This thread isn't about how politics/military work in real life, but how they are depicted in Mass Effect.

In reality, military-governments have been a dime a dozen, and successful ones nearly an oxymoron. Fascism, for all its faults, also never made good on its claims for 'decisive' or 'strong' governance: the bureacracy and politics could be just as stifiling. There have been good military officers who made good politicians (and vice versa), but the idea that military leaders are always better and civilian politicians always bad is  laughable fallacy that doesn't stand to history...

but does in Mass Effect, where politicians are **** and the entire galaxy fixes itself in short order when Commander Shepard isn't held back by the buracracy and politics (which are often the biggest obstacle to saving the day).

I apologize for not staing this in my posts, but I was just pointing out examples of times when politcians, manage to accomplish great things. I get what you are saying, and know what you mean was just pointing out examples, and how I wish Bioware would show some strength in the politics of Mass Effect. Once again I apologize for not stating this, I was rushing with the post as I had to go to a orientation for a culinary competition.

In that case we're totally cool.


I was really just pre-empting any 'but fascism isn't the greatest form of government' counterarguments. Because, well, that's not what I was trying to say beyond the satire.


Politics occurs everywhere, and there are a great number of times in which professional soldiers are far worse at it than professional diplomats and politicians. Half of modern counterinsurgency is about local politics.

[sponge56]

filetemo wrote...


I'm having trouble finding a part of our history where we were invaded by sentient warships, for reference, if anything.

What im having trouble with is your belief than in war politicians are useless, they are not. 

[Dean_the_Young]

filetemo wrote...

sponge56 wrote...

filetemo wrote...

you can be dealt with with a pistol shot. A reaper does not.

...I dont get a point, a reaper can be shot..just with a bigger gun

which will be provided by a soldier, not a politician.

the only good thing politicians could do is "hello citizens. we are getting invaded, so join the army. everyone. stop working, go grab a rifle. Scientists, start working exclusively on war tech. Generals of the army, stop fighting the neighbor country and fly to space to fight the reapers. That is all, thanks. Vote for me if we survive."

A great politician, on the other hand, would do better. He'd keep the economy moving rather than push everyone into the military, direct the mobilization and buracracy, strike alliances with allies and frenemies, help drive grand strategy, keep the military from biting its own head off from in-fighting, and always keep an eye open for the post-war setting.

[filetemo]

sponge56 wrote...

filetemo wrote...


I'm having trouble finding a part of our history where we were invaded by sentient warships, for reference, if anything.

What im having trouble with is your belief than in war politicians are useless, they are not. 

In mass effect they are. Because the enemy in mass effect can not be dealt with. There's no treaties to be made, no truces or territory splitting.

it's like in the Terminator movies. What's going to achieve a team of politicians against skynet? She wants to wipe us out. There's nothing to talk.

[filetemo]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

filetemo wrote...

sponge56 wrote...

filetemo wrote...

you can be dealt with with a pistol shot. A reaper does not.

...I dont get a point, a reaper can be shot..just with a bigger gun

which will be provided by a soldier, not a politician.

the only good thing politicians could do is "hello citizens. we are getting invaded, so join the army. everyone. stop working, go grab a rifle. Scientists, start working exclusively on war tech. Generals of the army, stop fighting the neighbor country and fly to space to fight the reapers. That is all, thanks. Vote for me if we survive."

A great politician, on the other hand, would do better. He'd keep the economy moving rather than push everyone into the military, direct the mobilization and buracracy, strike alliances with allies and frenemies, help drive grand strategy, keep the military from biting its own head off from in-fighting, and always keep an eye open for the post-war setting.

Again, if your enemy is a massive army of 2km. long sentient warships who want nothing but to destroy organic life in the galaxy, knowing there might be no tomorrow, you can assume every leader of every race would immediately stop all internal wars with other races or countries. Alliances would be made naturally seeing the might of the foe, and seeing the destiny of other races who were not so lucky/quick to have time to organize.

Imagine reapers invaded our earth today. Do you think USA would keep sending troops to afghanistan? Do you think North Corea would threathen with missiles South Korea? Do you think palestinians would keep throwing stones to israeli outposts with a 2km dreadnought over the clouds? Hell no, everybody would stop doing whatever they were doing, forget their ancestral hates and unite to desatroy the greater evil.

Later on we can keep killing each other as usual.

[filetemo]

Rezources wrote...

Aww, someone's taking their first political science class.

being condescending and calling cuteness while others do the talking must be a politician thing I see

[Inquisitor Recon]

filetemo wrote...
being condescending while others do the talking must be a politician thing I see

That's the 5th rule of politics mai boi.

[filetemo]

ReconTeam wrote...

filetemo wrote...
being condescending while others do the talking must be a politician thing I see

That's the 5th rule of politics mai boi.

I thought the 5th one was: "becoming a politician is a safe way to kiss babies without getting arrested"

[Dean_the_Young]

filetemo wrote...

Again, if your enemy is a massive army of 2km. long sentient warships who want nothing but to destroy organic life in the galaxy, knowing there might be no tomorrow, you can assume every leader of every race would immediately stop all internal wars with other races or countries.
Alliances would be made naturally seeing the might of the foe, and
seeing the destiny of other races who were not so lucky/quick to have
time to organize.

But stopping internal (or even external) wars doesn't mean a maximum utility of resources. You need to do more than stop fighting and agree to cooperate, but also determine how you will cooperate. Will Eurasia be the main base of resistance, or will we fall back to the Fortress Americas? Do we want mass-distributed industry, or should we concentrate on the coasts? Which coasts? Who will specialize in what?

Imagine reapers invaded our earth today. Do you think USA would keep sending troops to afghanistan?

Depends where the Reapers landed (if they landed at all).

Do you think North Korea would threathen with missiles South Korea?

Quite easily so, and here's a basis for doing so: North Korea is being harvested by the Reapers, the South Koreans want to try and make a stand at the DMZ fortifications rather than the less-suitable North Korea territories, and so North Korea vows that it would destroy South Korea if South Korea leaves it to the lurch.

Threatening to capsize the raft if you are being thrown overboard is quite often a good argument to not being thrown overboard yourself, even if someone has t obe.

Simply

Do you think palestinians would keep throwing stones to israeli outposts with a 2km dreadnought over the clouds?

Sure: Israel could be attempting a garrison position and trying to keep everything out, and the Palestineans want to be let in the wall. Israelis fear indoctrinated infiltraitors, Palestineans are being attacked by husks, and so the only way to safety is mutually incompatible.

Hell no, everybody would stop doing whatever they were doing, forget their ancestral hates and unite to desatroy the greater evil.

Later on we can keep killing each other as usual.

We can also continue doing so now... especially if they way we kill eachother is beneficial to surviving/killing the common threat, or taking advantage of someone else's preoccupation, or even if we simply hate our enemies more than we hate being killed.

All three have happened, quite frequently. 'Divide and conquer' works.

[DRSH]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The root of all evil in this universe, or at least the source of all obstacles, nearly always comes from 'politics.'

'Politics' is the dirty word in the history of this galaxy, even more than 'Reapers.' If it weren't for 'politics', after all, we'd all do the blatantly obvious thing and join forces against the Reapers... and all those other pesky problems that take clear-thinking, straight-talking, honest (military) types to resolve simply and effectively. If a soldier-type can't solve a problem, it's because politicians are holding him or her back from doing their job.... and if a politician actually does something good, it's because a military type pushed them to it.

Just think about it, ladies and gentlemen. How often have you had to go out of your way to get the tools you need to do you job, simply because the damn bureacrats only gave you star charts from 2183? How often has it been the politicians holding you back from solving your problems, and how many times has it been politicians who cause them in the first place, and then refuse to acknowledge them? Ilos, Horizon, any time 'the Terminus' has been raised.

Hell, the only reason we stand to lose the war against the Reapers is because the damn dumb bureacrats have stuck their head in the sand for the past few years, rather than building weapons.

Who recognizes problems? Who solves them? Who gets things done? Military types do, that's who. Politicians refused to recognize the dangers of Saren? It took a military ship willing to mutiny in order to beat him. The Krogan threaten to surpass the genophage? The STG, not politicians, solve the problem. The Rachni overrun the borders? It took soldiers, not 'statemen' to stop them. And just who does a better job at managing piracy: Turian patrols, or Asari 'soft power'?

History is clear. To solve galactic problems, it isn't 'politics' that have succeded. 'Politics' is the problem. You want something solved, ask a good soldier.

Eveyone else? The rulers, the civilians who rule these fine military men and women?

They're useless, nearly treasonously so. All of them. The Council doesn't want to admit there's a problem, and is too afraid to move. The Asari are decadent democracies, content in their veneer of civility even as they alone on the Council continue slavery, unwilling to face facts of galactic society and militarize. The Salarian daltrasses play their intrigue, and leave the real work to the woefully undersized STG. And let's not start on the Alliance parliament, with bigots and corporate-interests calling the shots.

There's only one species that even somewhat does it right: the Turians, where citizenship is measured in the merit of blood shed, years spent in service, and in which service is a precondition. The Heirarchy doesn't cause problems: it solves them. And the Heirarchy doesn't solve them by talking: the Heirarchy employs the only true problem-solvers of the Mass Effect galaxy, the military. They aren't afraid to do what it takes.

The Turians are strong because not only they are willing to bomb their foes back into the stone age, but because after then they annex the defeated, incorporate them, raise them into something of value as new soldiers for the Turian imperialism. And the galaxy will survive the Reapers, IF it survives the Reapers, because of that sort of strength. The galaxy needs more militaristic, imperialistic powers, not less.

The galaxy won't be saved by a Matriarch's philosophy, or a Daltrass's scheme. It will not be saved by the appeal of decadent democracies, or corporate greed.

The salvation of the galaxy will come from the barrel of a gun, a gun held by soldiers. We need that soldier. We need many of them.

The Council has failed. Democracy has failed. Communism has failed. Corporatism has failed. All the other methods have failed. There is only one effective form of power in this universe, and we need it.

Draft your politicians. Occupy your bureacrats. The galaxy needs strong leadership. Leadership with integrity, purpose, and ability, long held back by politics. We need a galaxy run by the military, for the military, and of the military, if we are to have any chance against the Reapers.

Fascists of the galaxy, unite!

We're not in 1939 anymore.

[King Minos]

I like turtles.

[filetemo]

Dean the young wrote...

, but also determine how you will cooperate. Will Eurasia be the main base of resistance, or will we fall back to the Fortress Americas? Do we want mass-distributed industry, or should we concentrate on the coasts? Which coasts? Who will specialize in what?

That's a job for engineers and military tacticians, and again, the concept "coasts" does not fit in a reaper invasion scenario.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

filetemo wrote...
Imagine reapers invaded our earth today. Do you think USA would keep sending troops to afghanistan?

Depends where the Reapers landed (if they landed at all).

You saw the trailer, they land everywhere. "2 million dead in the first day. 7 million more the first week." Not a good moment to keep sending troops anywhere

Dean_the_Young wrote...

filetemo wrote...
Do you think North Korea would threathen with missiles South Korea?

Quite easily so, and here's a basis for doing so: North Korea is being harvested by the Reapers, the South Koreans want to try and make a stand at the DMZ fortifications rather than the less-suitable North Korea territories, and so North Korea vows that it would destroy South Korea if South Korea leaves it to the lurch.
.

Oh, come on. If North Korea is being harvested, South Koreans would flee or help the North. You can't be serious saying they would use the harvest to get better positions against the South. That's like stealing your brother's comic books while he is being stabbed by a convict.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Do you think palestinians would keep throwing stones to israeli outposts with a 2km dreadnought over the clouds?

Sure: Israel could be attempting a garrison position and trying to keep everything out, and the Palestineans want to be let in the wall. Israelis fear indoctrinated infiltraitors, Palestineans are being attacked by husks, and so the only way to safety is mutually incompatible.

Why do Israelis do not have husks in their side of the wall? too convenient for your argument?

Modifié par filetemo, 09 octobre 2011 - 12:55 .

[yuncas]

Mr.Kusy wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
Militarization of US culture?  That's rather extraordinarily laughable.  A very small percentage of this country's people ever put on uniform.  The culture here is far from militarized, at least in the way you're thinking.
As for romanticizing the military.  Yes, we do that.  Shamelessly.  One of the things I love about this place.

I like how you used culture and US in the same sentence. It amuses me.

Your choice of profile pic amuses me.

Because Clint Eastwood con cowboy hat=only a small part of American culture.

[filetemo]

funny thing is most spaghetti westerns were filmed in europe

[TuringPoint]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I agree that it doesn't get much more basic than 'military characters = good and noble with rare exception, politicians = useless counterproductive sleazebags.'

I'd blame it on an American cultural romanticism of the military, and overall militarization of US culture, if Bioware weren't Canadian.

I have thought about this, though I am personally not convinced that it promotes fascism except in people who don't think about the context and implications of it all.   In individual situations Mass Effect doesn't promote fascism ideologically, however.  To some extent Paragon options take the edge off of this, as they tend towards diplomacy and 'the greater picture,' and the worth of individual lives.  Udina does some more and some less fascist things, and Anderson 'opens trade negotations' that are never mentioned with Udina.  

I think this is a result of trying to make Shepard's (military) perspective more understandable, and the fact that ME trilogy is Shepard's story.  Because of this the focus is disappointingly narrow in the range of science-fiction/sci-fi stories, not exploring politics or the implications of technology beyond how it affects Shepard's great (military victory) quest.  

For all this, it could've been a lot worse.

Modifié par Alocormin, 09 octobre 2011 - 01:04 .

[King Minos]

Politics is a naughty topic.

[Dean_the_Young]

filetemo wrote...


That's a job for engineers and military tacticians,

Whose engineers? China builds a lot of dams, but plenty don't trust their quality standards and expertise. Different engineers use different measurements and standards. People who disagree on who is best at what?

Which tacticians? NATO, which Russia doesn't trust to consider its concerns? The Chinese, who have a continental-warfare mentality and would focus on themselves (and East Asia) first? The naval-power mentality of the US , who actually has bases across the entire world?

and again, the concept "coasts" does not fit in a reaper invasion scenario.

Of course it does. Reapers may be able to fly at will, but we can't. Most of our population centers, and our transportation infrastructure, go by sea and from the coasts. Any earth-based resistance is going to depend on the terrain of, well, Earth.

You saw the trailer, they land everywhere. "2 million dead in the first day. 7 million more the first week." Not a good moment to keep sending troops anywhere

If we're talking actual Reapers, it wouldn't matter where we sent them: we'd be dead regardless, and probably from orbital bombardment. Likewise, cooperation would be moot: the Reapers would bomb our means of traveling to eachother (ports and airports), occuli would kill all shipping by sea or train, and movement would be largely stopped.

If we're talking about 'hypothetical alien invasion that we can actually fight', where we fight them will determine where we send them. If the super-grand strategy idea is that keeping Eurasia is more important than keeping North America, then shipping forces from North America (which is an acceptable loss) to Eurasia (which is not) would be the 'best' option.

Oh, come on. If North Korea is being harvested, South Koreans would flee or help the North. You can't be serious saying they would use the harvest to get better positions against the South. That's like stealing your brother's comic books while he is being stabbed by a convict.

Actually, it's more akin to a zombie invasion. Do you go out to rescue someone on the streets from the zom-mob there, or do you fortify your house so that maybe you can deter a force, and leave the other person to his fate? One might net you another person to your team... but at the costs of however many you might lose in the rescue, the resource cost to supply an additional person, team congruance, and the lost time in preparing your own defenses.

Trading time for defense is a classic military strategy. Sometimes that time is bought with terrain given up. Sometimes it is bought with the sacrifice of a rear-guard, or a distraction.

Why do Israelis do not have husks in their side of the wall? too convenient for your argument?

Or because while the Israelis can handle the number of husks/indoctrinated on their side, they don't feel they can do so if they let everyone who wants to come in, come in.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 09 octobre 2011 - 01:12 .

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

King Minos wrote...

Politics is a naughty topic.

Yup. It needs spanking.

[Zulu_DFA]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

And the point is?

That autocratic, militaristic leadership is the only successful sort in the Mass Effect universe.

also it is:
Proletarians of all countries, unite.

Nah, communists don't thrive in the Mass Effect universe.

Actually, the Reapers are communists.

Only they need to be purged and the Galaxy must fall in the general line of Chairman TIM.

Yay for Cerberus Liberation Army!!! And death to the Turian-Asari fascist parasites and exploiters!!!

[yuncas]

filetemo wrote...

funny thing is most spaghetti westerns were filmed in europe

 

What's even MORE funny is that Sergio Leone is the only person who made a movie with Clint Eastwood playing a cowboy.


Except he wasn't. 

[filetemo]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]filetemo wrote...


That's a job for engineers and military tacticians,[/quote]Whose engineers? Which tacticians? [/quote]
Which? Civilian Engineers, civilian and military scientists, and military strategists.Martial law would be declared.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
[quote]
and again, the concept "coasts" does not fit in a reaper invasion scenario.[/quote]Of course it does. Reapers may be able to fly at will, but we can't. Most of our population centers, and our transportation infrastructure, go by sea and from the coasts. Any earth-based resistance is going to depend on the terrain of, well, Earth.[/quote]
the concept "coasts" does not fit for industry placing or bunkering. All humans should arm themselves to fight husks, and hope aircrafts concentrate reaper fire to avoid orbital strikes to any fortification you make


[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
[quote]
You saw the trailer, they land everywhere. "2 million dead in the first day. 7 million more the first week." Not a good moment to keep sending troops anywhere[/quote]If we're talking actual Reapers, it wouldn't matter where we sent them: we'd be dead regardless, and probably from orbital bombardment. Likewise, cooperation would be moot: the Reapers would bomb our means of traveling to eachother (ports and airports), occuli would kill all shipping by sea or train, and movement would be largely stopped.

If we're talking about 'hypothetical alien invasion that we can actually fight', where we fight them will determine where we send them. If the super-grand strategy idea is that keeping Eurasia is more important than keeping North America, then shipping forces from North America (which is an acceptable loss) to Eurasia (which is not) would be the 'best' option.[/quote]
You totally misfigurated my point. I meant that no country would send troops TO FIGHT ANOTHER COUNTRY with reapers at bay.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
[quote]
Oh, come on. If North Korea is being harvested, South Koreans would flee or help the North. You can't be serious saying they would use the harvest to get better positions against the South. That's like stealing your brother's comic books while he is being stabbed by a convict.[/quote]Actually, it's more akin to a zombie invasion. Do you go out to rescue someone on the streets from the zom-mob there, or do you fortify your house so that maybe you can deter a force, and leave the other person to his fate? One might net you another person to your team... but at the costs of however many you might lose in the rescue, the resource cost to supply an additional person, team congruance, and the lost time in preparing your own defenses.

Trading time for defense is a classic military strategy. Sometimes that time is bought with terrain given up. Sometimes it is bought with the sacrifice of a rear-guard, or a distraction.[/quote]

again, zombies do not have air support. Fortifications are useless and any kind of fortified elevated position to defend from husks is invalidated by smaller 500meter reapers acting as ground heavy support. Which means, closing yourself in a bunker while watching your korean neighbors get liquified does not help your own survival





[quote][quote]
Why do Israelis do not have husks in their side of the wall? too convenient for your argument?
[/quote]Or because while the Israelis can handle the number of husks/indoctrinated on their side, they don't feel they can do so if they let everyone who wants to come in, come in.
[/quote][/quote]

How are Israelis able to contain husks if they can barely contain palestinian kids with homemade rockets?[/quote]

Listen, what I mean is: Against reapers, all we need is a centralized interspecies military command center, so we can use hit and run tactics while we evaluate the situation. All we need is for the different armadas to collaborate, and while politicians may make the first contacts, after that everything is in military hands. That includes military scientists, assistants, ground personnel, soldiers, workers, industries and medic personnel. There's no need for politics, ambassadors, congresists, senators or spokesmen, because there's nothing to talk with the reapers.

Modifié par filetemo, 09 octobre 2011 - 01:28 .