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[Addai]

Houndiddy wrote...

Weishaupt and the Illuminati have not really grabbed my interest as a Catholic Christian. However, the Weisshaupt business in the game was a bit much, coupled with the reference to Templars. These folks dabbled in the satanic, and I don't want to come anywhere near close to that in any roleplaying game I am in love with. It doesn't make sense for me to do so. I just deleted Dragon Age: Origins from my computer, with deep disappointment but with no regrets. So, Bioware, I decided to ignore all the sex stuff by having my character just obey the Golden Rule and the Ten Commandments and fight evil darkspawn and dragons to his heart's content. But I do wish you could resist the temptation to get into real-world controversy and let us have our fantasy.

That seems a bit extreme.  Certainly there are comparisons between the Chantry and the medieval Catholic church, but as I see it these are meant to inspire a sense of familiarity so that the setting stays in dark-medieval-fantasy lore mode.  Should a French person not play the game because the Orlesians are depicted rather poorly?  Well, if they are that sensitive about it, I guess so.  But since Orlais =/ France, it would seem rather silly.

[frost.mage.mari]

i don't really get why people try to make a meaningful connection between the fictional and real world, especially when the world was just created for entertainment.
(Now, i don't mean connecting the real world to say the book Animal Farm.. if for some reason you don't know about it.. i can't think of any person now who wouldnt.. it was a satirical portreyal of the creation and practices of soviet russia)

It could very well be that they took the name weishaupt fortress because they liked the name weishaupt.  As far as i know (and as others have said), the anderfels are supposedly based off of germany(most likely from a medieval/rennissance-period cultural standpoint).

The creators could have simply thought Weishaupt was an impressive name for a fortress in a german culture influenced country, and the name can't strike a personal chord with anyone alive today.  Because lets face it.. in two hundred years.. do you think any reasonable is going to be offended by the name Stalin, Adolf, or the name of any modern day evil person?  I seriously doubt it, by that point, those names(and people) will strike the same chord with those living at that point so it won't mean anything near to them as it does to us.

So in the end of things.. Bioware didn't mean to offend you, and most likely didn't intend to imply a deeper meaning to the grey wardens (or other institutions in Thedas)... and in the case they did, they most likely assumed that their audience was mature enough to see "bad words" or questionable content  and not act foolish or indignant.

 only because of the choice of Weisshaupt as the name of a Templar fortress, and the Illuminati as something I was going to have 'in my face'

Just because i feel i need to say something to this specifically..
First.. Weisshaupt fortress is the name of the Grey Warden's home base, not the templars. The templars are the chantry's army.

Secondly.. At most, the name is mentioned in passing and you spend all of five minutes at the fortress while in the fade.  Perhaps it will be used more in further expansions/DLC/Dragon age 2

Third.. the illuminati organization has existed in countless other RPG's, though not under that name all the time.. there's almost -always- an organization like that will use any means nessacary to accomplish it's goals.  Even if the goal is a good one.  Most good story-tellers use this type of organization because most writers now-a-days know that the shining knights bursting with holy-goodness and sunshine thoughts just don't work anymore.  It's just not real, honour and belief don't always win over an evil that will use all in their power to win... and in a fantasy setting like this, it's -much- easier to show the pitfalls of those who go too far.

Modifié par frost.mage.mari, 28 mars 2010 - 11:24 .

[Houndiddy]

The Grey Wardens Fortress, so much the worse. I misspoke. Lady Damodred, you do not offend, I appreciate your interest.



I very much like the idea of close friendship and romantic love developing in these games. It's part of the joy of their marvelous complexity and part of their great charm. My character is a Human Noble who was brought up with highminded religious values, in a strong and happy family with great examples of marriage between his parents and his brother/wife. That's the frame of reference of his sexuality. He is serious about fighting the blight. Therefore he doesn't want sexual flings. OK, he can avoid them, except for the serious Morrigan thing at the end, which I understand will cost him his life and his ability to continue in the Awakening. I am OK with that. He would love to fall in love in the game and have that person fighting by his side until the end. It looks to me like, given the companions available, I am going to have to play a female and my love is going to be Zevran. Or was.



The historic Weishaupt may or may not have consciously served Satan, but he's a hero for some of those who do. In any event, a hero and benefactor of mankind he wasn't by any stretch. I agree with the post that started this string on that score. Why, oh why, name the Grey Warden fortress after him?



That is my only objection. We all get to re-imagine our lives in this parallel universe and look at everything anew. The great enchantment of fairy tales and D&D. Why, oh why, drag this controversial garbage in from real history, and is associated by many of us with evil?



Bobsmyuncle, I don't think for a minute that the Grey Wardens are going to be the historic Illuminati in the game. I don't know why, oh why, Weishaupt has to be referenced in connection with the dark heroes of the game. But I can't justify shrugging that one off.



I'm not happy about this, to say the least. It's not as if there were lots of other 40-gig state-of-the-art Balder's Gate-type games to replace DA:O. I'm left with NWN2, which is not chopped liver, but does not have all of Dragon Age's possibilities. But sorry, in the Weisshaupt reference I hear the hissing of the snake, and I wonder if somebody there at Bioware knew I would.

[Houndiddy]

frost.mage.mari, sorry to ignore your good post. I forgot to turn to page 2 before responding. Yours is the best argument for me to wring out my wet handkerchief and continue enjoying the game. I have to stand by what I said.



I greatly appreciate your effort, and it is possible I am being foolish here. I hope that somebody just liked the sound of Weisshaupt as a German name. 'In my face' meant 'this is to let you know, O Catholic, that you are in enemy territory'. Or my Enemy can say, I spoke the name of one of my servants, a name you know, and attached it to your character, with whom you identify, and you just kept coming!



So I just have to go.

[Addai]

You're assuming that Weisshaupt is meant to be a seat of valor and honor. I don't think that's at all the case. Riordan won't say much about it, except that he never wants to go back. That suggests that rather darker things are going on there, although he only mentions it in connection with the GWs being political.

As was already pointed out, the GWs have nothing to do with the templars and are in fact at odds with them at several points in the game.

Because some references are borrowed is not to assign one to one historical correlation to them.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 mars 2010 - 02:09 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

They drag in the references to exactly make us view the Grey Wardens as something else than shining white knights saving the day. Weishaupt is connected to evil for a lot of people (for whatever reason), and by connecting that name to the proposed heroes of the setting it make us think something isn't as pure as we thought about the Grey Wardens... Well for me the name meant nothing but the way the Order basicly ruled the Anderfels did.

[Houndiddy]

Thanks, Addai67 and EmperorSahlertz. Excellent points. I must say I sensed pretty early, and I have just entered the Fade and am not far into the game, that the Grey Wardens are just that ... Grey. As has been said, they drank the darkspawn blood. But all your points are well taken. They are not 'Gaily bedight, the gallant knight, in sunshine or in shadow ...' I wasn't looking for that sort of childishness. I may have to rethink this thing, although I have made it clear that that name Weisshaupt set off an alarm. I wish Bioware hadn't used it, and I don't know that I can recover from the mistrust it set up. But if I do, It will be using the line of thought you good forum folks have indicated.

[Wuppie]

Houndiddy - you cannot be serious?



My surname IRL is Haupt. It was abbreviated when my father immigrated to Australia.

If I was to tell you that the original name was Weishaupt that would set off alarm bells?

I surely hope not.



A famous man once penned these words that I believe you should consider:

“What's in a name?”

“That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet”

[Houndiddy]

No, if I were introduced to a pleasant person like you, an Australian, as it happens, of German extraction, by the name of Weishaupt, I would think absolutely nothing but 'delighted to meet you!'.



These games are another story. The D&D games were seized upon by alarmed wrongheaded Christian parents some years ago because they were stories of magic, I think. "The Occult", they called it. I have forgotten, or never knew, all the details, but suicide of these youths was considered part of the problem. That I cannot imagine, as I would think a kid that played D&D would never commit suicide because tomorrow he would want to play some more!



To me, the games are the toy I dreamed of as a child. I used to wish I could go into the fairy stories, and Peter Pan, and all such books and actually participate in what was going on and maybe make a difference in the outcome. I wanted to do this so badly that I actually told another nine-year-old friend that I could do this. She just shrugged and grinned, she didn't believe me but liked me anyway! I don't think I was lying to her so much as longing and dreaming. Anyway, I discovered Neverwinter Nights as an adult and the rest is history.



As a Christian I found that there was a huge negative aura around these games among people unfamiliar with them, and I tried to dispel that. I even got my religion class of very smart 10-year-olds interested in NWN about the time I was healing the Spirit of the Wood. A little later on, when it was suggested I summon Belial, a name for a devil in the Hebrew Scriptures, I stopped that. I went to the Forums with 'Hey, I'm just not summoning Belial, not in a game or anywhere else!" I was told that it wouldn't make any difference whether I summoned Belial or not, in the plot or even in my XP's. So, knowing that there is a lot of ignorance of religion out there, including knowledge of the importance of names in religious history, I decided that if I didn't keep running into this I would forget about it, except for not recommending the RPG experience to kids anymore. I still run different characters through NWN and just skip that part. But it set up a caution in me when encountering a new game.



When I heard NWN2 was replete with devils, I inquired in the forum about this. Another Christian who was actually in touch with the team working on it advised me, 'Think Tasmanian Devils!' That did it for me. I love stories of the struggle against evil, whether with the sword or with the conscience. But I do believe in the existence of Satan and demons, that they try to engage us in any way they can. The demon in 'The Exorcist", a novel and movie based loosely on a real exorcism, used an Ouija board to engage the child.



Anyway, it is my understanding that the D&D folks at the time of the original objections from the Christians agreed not to use names and plotlines involving existing real-world religions, which I think was an excellent idea. Due to the heavy spiritual and supernatural content of the stories, which I love, it would be relatively easy for Satanists to use this medium. So there is a part of me that can be alarmed by the use of allusions to folks like this particular Weishaupt, no relation I surely assume! It's not the family name Weishaupt, but the context, that alarmed me. As I said, perhaps the actual historical character was not in the heads of the creators of the game. I really hope so.



I apologize for the wordiness but some Forum folks understand where I'm coming from and some don't. I realize the beliefs of orthodox religious people must seem odd to those who don't share them, but I hate to contribute to the stereotype.

[Addai]

Speaking of Weisshaupt, it's a pity we didn't get the opportunity to tell Mistress Woolsey to bugger off. I mean, can they be any more transparent? Not a peep comes from Griffon HQ when a Blight threatens, but when the Wardens in Ferelden have possession of a noble title and an income, suddenly they are all interested. And worried about "integrity."  But not worried about sending you any blades.  Um, riiiight. Worried about getting a cut, no doubt.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 mars 2010 - 04:45 .

[Patriciachr34]

Really do not think that Weisshaupt was an intentianal reference to the illuminati. Weisshaupt is built into a mountain that housed the griffon aries of ancient times. So, it can be assumed that Weisshaupt simply literally translate to white head or more precisely white peak. If you are wonder why white peak, take a look at the rocks that birds nest on. Ewwwww! And super smelly too!

[DJ0000]

Addai67 wrote...

Speaking of Weisshaupt, it's a pity we didn't get the opportunity to tell Mistress Woolsey to bugger off. I mean, can they be any more transparent? Not a peep comes from Griffon HQ when a Blight threatens, but when the Wardens in Ferelden have possession of a noble title and an income, suddenly they are all interested. And worried about "integrity."  But not worried about sending you any blades.  Um, riiiight. Worried about getting a cut, no doubt.

Agreed.

I don't trust those Ander's either. They say they want to be able to start a fight against the Blight quickly but it so obvious that all they care about is money and power. I would much rather put my trust in the Orlesians than the Ander's.

[Kimarous]

DJ0000 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Speaking of Weisshaupt, it's a pity we didn't get the opportunity to tell Mistress Woolsey to bugger off. I mean, can they be any more transparent? Not a peep comes from Griffon HQ when a Blight threatens, but when the Wardens in Ferelden have possession of a noble title and an income, suddenly they are all interested. And worried about "integrity."  But not worried about sending you any blades.  Um, riiiight. Worried about getting a cut, no doubt.

Agreed.

I don't trust those Ander's either. They say they want to be able to start a fight against the Blight quickly but it so obvious that all they care about is money and power. I would much rather put my trust in the Orlesians than the Ander's.

Just to be sure, you're talking about the Anderfels, right? At first I thought you were talking about the character Anders...

[SOLID_EVEREST]

After talking to Riordan, I knew that the Wardens weren't the white-knights that Alistair/Wynne paints them to be.



When asked about Weisshaupt, Riordan gave me an answer that I wasn't really expecting. I was expecting Riordan to say how beautiful the fortress was, and how mighty/civilized/valorous the Grey Wardens there were.



I thought that Riordan's answer was a slap to Wynne's face who acted like she knew the Grey Wardens more than anyone in the camp. I wish you could have Riordan tell Wynne what the Wardens actually stand for.