497 réponses à ce sujet

[Zanallen]

Meh, I took it as a joke about a man bringing a prostitute to a fancy party rather than portraying transsexuals in a negative. That prostitute just happened to be a transsexual. Would people have felt better if Bann had brought that male elf instead?

Also, Bioware could remove the scene, sure. Of course, that would necessitate them pushing back the release of the DLC by several weeks, maybe even a month. And then we would no doubt have people on these boards complaining about Bioware denying them DLC to assuage the feelings of transsexuals and nonsense of that caliber. Meh, whatever. Bioware is screwed either way.

[payroo]

Anyroad2 wrote...

payroo wrote...

That begs the question of how they even knew she was a prostitute - as far as Tallis' character was concerned, she had no way of knowing where Serendipity came from. All Tallis reacted to (or at least, how the scene read) was the voice.

Or Tallis' reaction may be because Serendipity is hitting on Hawke, even though shes standing right next to Bran who we think brought Serendipity to the event in the first place.

If that alone was supposed to be the punchline of the joke, there would be no need to use Serendipity specifically.

Also, whats wrong with Tallis' reaction to Serendipitys voice anyway? I'm willing to bet that a lot of people would feel uncomfortable or weird hearing someone like Dr. Girlfriend for the first time. Meaning a woman who has a deep, manly voice for whatever reason.

Having people feel uncomfortable because of the way you are, because of your very state of being sounds pretty wrong to me.

Look, I don't see the point in arguing about whether or not the scene was offensive. Mary Kirby already went and apologized - clearly, she does acknowledge that there is a problem.

[Anyroad2]

Zanallen wrote...

Bioware is screwed either way.

Bioware always are.

Bioware will never satisfy everyone. I mean come on, people arent even satisfied the writer of the scene came into this thread and appoligized. Now they want the whole scene taken out.

Give me a break.

Modifié par Anyroad2, 09 octobre 2011 - 10:32 .

[AlexXIV]

Zanallen wrote...

Meh, I took it as a joke about a man bringing a prostitute to a fancy party rather than portraying transsexuals in a negative. That prostitute just happened to be a transsexual. Would people have felt better if Bann had brought that male elf instead?

Also, Bioware could remove the scene, sure. Of course, that would necessitate them pushing back the release of the DLC by several weeks, maybe even a month. And then we would no doubt have people on these boards complaining about Bioware denying them DLC to assuage the feelings of transsexuals and nonsense of that caliber. Meh, whatever. Bioware is screwed either way.

I don't think anyone would have complained if it would just have been a prostitute. Why they chose to use a transsexual to begin with AND make a joke about it, is complete beyond me. And beyond many others probably aswell. The interesting thing for me is really, if she had just been a 'normal' prostitute there would have not been a problem at all. So what's the problem really? That they did it, but did not give more thought about it. That's it. Somehow reminds me of the problems I have with the main game. They were doing things that were not inherently bad, but with lack of thought they just turned out to look silly.

[Xilizhra]

Anyroad2 wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Bioware is screwed either way.

Bioware always are.

Everyone will never be satisfied with what they do. I mean come on, people arent even satisfied the writer of the scene came into this thread and appoligized. Now they want the whole scene taken out.

Give me a break.

When did you think we wanted anything else? We just had no idea that they might do it until Mary Kirby actually apologized. I don't hold any personal anger towards her, but I feel removing it would probably be the best bet.

[jbblue05]

Typical all you have to do is play the victim

[AlexXIV]

Anyroad2 wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Bioware is screwed either way.

Bioware always are.

Bioware will never satisfy everyone. I mean come on, people arent even satisfied the writer of the scene came into this thread and appoligized. Now they want the whole scene taken out.

Give me a break.

Well I may be leaning out of the window with this comparision, but I'll try anyway. You can't wear for example a t-shirt with a racist message on it, and if someone complains about it, you just apologize and then go on and keep wearing it. Doesn't make sense. If you apologize and mean it honest you will not wear it anymore. Lesson learned. So that's why changing or removing it is necessary to even make the apology creditable.

[Zanallen]

AlexXIV wrote...

I don't think anyone would have complained if it would just have been a prostitute. Why they chose to use a transsexual to begin with AND make a joke about it, is complete beyond me. And beyond many others probably aswell. The interesting thing for me is really, if she had just been a 'normal' prostitute there would have not been a problem at all. So what's the problem really? That they did it, but did not give more thought about it. That's it. Somehow reminds me of the problems I have with the main game. They were doing things that were not inherently bad, but with lack of thought they just turned out to look silly.

I see it going down like this:

"Hey, for this DLC we are throwing a fancy party. We need NPCs."

"Hm, why not include NPCs from Kirkwall to better tie in the DLC with the main game?"

"Good idea. Who can we add?"

"Seneschal Bran?"

"Ah yes. And for his date..."

"Well, we have already established that he frequents the Rose."

"Ha! That would be funny. Bringing a prostitute to the party. Hilarious!"

[ademska]

Anyroad2 wrote...

Or Tallis' reaction may be because Serendipity is hitting on Hawke, even though shes standing right next to Bran who we think brought Serendipity to the event in the first place.

Also, whats wrong with Tallis' reaction to Serendipitys voice anyway? I'm willing to bet that a lot of people would feel uncomfortable or weird hearing someone like Dr. Girlfriend for the first time. Meaning a woman who has a deep, manly voice for whatever reason.

a man and a masked woman are standing at a high-society party. hawke and tallis approach them, and the woman removes her mask and flirts with hawke. she happens to be black. no one else at the party is black, and no one else in the game series has ever been black. she is the first black character.

hawke and tallis react by saying "awkwardddd" and talking over her, not acknowledging her presence.

what's the fan reaction?

Modifié par ademska, 09 octobre 2011 - 10:43 .

[Anyroad2]

payroo wrote...

If that alone was supposed to be the punchline of the joke, there would be no need to use Serendipity specifically.

Kirby came in here and said that makigng fun of trans people wasnt her intent when writing the scene.
Bran enjoys Serendipity. He brought her to this event because of their relationship (whether it be strickly professional or not). It wouldnt have made sense if Bran brougth someone else.

paroo wrote...

Having people feel uncomfortable because of the way you are, because of your very state of being sounds pretty wrong to me.

Look, I don't see the point in arguing about whether or not the scene was offensive. Mary Kirby already went and apologized - clearly, she does acknowledge that there is a problem.

I had an art teacher once who constantly looked over the shoulders of his students while we worked and put his hands on our shoulders while doing so. Thats uncomfortable, but thats also how my teacher was. I don't think he felt like he was doing anything wrong. Was it wrong for us to be uncomfortable with him?

[Reaverwind]

inzesky wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Wait, seriously? Is there a video up anywhere or anything?

Imma be pissed, BioWare.

I second this. Can someone post a link or something?

edit: Nevermind. Thanks masterthief.

edit 2: Wow. That whole scene was cringeworthy and utterly pointless.

No worse than the scenes with Isabella or numerous other scenes.Where's the outrage over her running around with her ****** and ass hanging out?

[Seagloom]

I don't expect them to remove the content based on Mary Kirby's apology. That's a decision she is unlikely to have any influence in. It's one thing for the dialogue writer to apologize. It's quite another for the company to do it. Someone noted earlier BioWare would likely need to hold the game back for weeks, and that is true. After all the marketing Mark of the Assassin has received, and going through the certification process, that isn't going to happen.

I'm not even sure it's worth it at this point. I mean, we all know the scene was there. Damage done. I'm happy enough with the apology as long as a similar incident doesn't occur in the future.

[Mary Kirby]

Moussey wrote...

What other meaning is there, if it has nothing to do with transgenderism or Serendipity being an unconventional person?

The scene plays differently if Hawke has slept with Serendipity. In that version, she greets Hawke familiarly, and hints that everyone at the Blooming Rose is looking forward to Hawke's next visit. That's what Tallis and Hawke are responding to, because I thoughtlessly did not write an alternate version of the middle or end of the conversation in the event that the player hadn't slept with Serendiptiy. I just linked around the familiar part of the conversation to the same ending. So yes, in this version, the most reasonable assumption would be that the source of the awkwardness is not a discussion of Hawke's popularity at the Rose in front of both their dates, it seems to be Serendipty herself, because no conversation has occured in this version of the scene. Tallis' line doesn't even make sense in this case, because there's no topic to change.  There's nothing else for Tallis and Hawke to be reacting to.   It's an absolutely terrible scene, and I can see why it offended.

Again, I'm very sorry. 

[nightscrawl]

inzesky wrote...

edit 2: Wow. That whole scene was cringeworthy and utterly pointless.

While I do agree with this point, I'm not entirely sure if their response is due to the transgender aspect, but rather that they came upon Seneschal Bran with a prostitute (ANY prostitute), and at what appears to be a noble party (ie not in the Blooming Rose). I don't know about anyone else, but I would consider it to be awkward if I ran into a government official in the company of a prostitute. This is further bolstered by Hawke's comment, "And everyone here is so... upper-class."

[Anyroad2]

AlexXIV wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Bioware is screwed either way.

Bioware always are.

Bioware will never satisfy everyone. I mean come on, people arent even satisfied the writer of the scene came into this thread and appoligized. Now they want the whole scene taken out.

Give me a break.

Well I may be leaning out of the window with this comparision, but I'll try anyway. You can't wear for example a t-shirt with a racist message on it, and if someone complains about it, you just apologize and then go on and keep wearing it. Doesn't make sense. If you apologize and mean it honest you will not wear it anymore. Lesson learned. So that's why changing or removing it is necessary to even make the apology creditable.

A racist messages are pretty blatant. The person wearing the shirt knows what the message is, and probably knows very well that it will offend.

The writer of this scene didnt intend to offend people with this. She intended something else (what, we dont know).

One is deliberate. The other is not. Thats the diffrence.

[Zanallen]

Mary Kirby wrote...

The scene plays differently if Hawke has slept with Serendipity. In that version, she greets Hawke familiarly, and hints that everyone at the Blooming Rose is looking forward to Hawke's next visit. That's what Tallis and Hawke are responding to, because I thoughtlessly did not write an alternate version of the middle or end of the conversation in the event that the player hadn't slept with Serendiptiy. I just linked around the familiar part of the conversation to the same ending. So yes, in this version, the most reasonable assumption would be that the source of the awkwardness is not a discussion of Hawke's popularity at the Rose in front of both their dates, it seems to be Serendipty herself, because no conversation has occured in this version of the scene. Tallis' line doesn't even make sense in this case, because there's no topic to change.  There's nothing else for Tallis and Hawke to be reacting to.   It's an absolutely terrible scene, and I can see why it offended.

Again, I'm very sorry. 

Ha! So that's what happened. Well, no chance of fixing that.

[Xilizhra]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Moussey wrote...

What other meaning is there, if it has nothing to do with transgenderism or Serendipity being an unconventional person?

The scene plays differently if Hawke has slept with Serendipity. In that version, she greets Hawke familiarly, and hints that everyone at the Blooming Rose is looking forward to Hawke's next visit. That's what Tallis and Hawke are responding to, because I thoughtlessly did not write an alternate version of the middle or end of the conversation in the event that the player hadn't slept with Serendiptiy. I just linked around the familiar part of the conversation to the same ending. So yes, in this version, the most reasonable assumption would be that the source of the awkwardness is not a discussion of Hawke's popularity at the Rose in front of both their dates, it seems to be Serendipty herself, because no conversation has occured in this version of the scene. Tallis' line doesn't even make sense in this case, because there's no topic to change.  There's nothing else for Tallis and Hawke to be reacting to.   It's an absolutely terrible scene, and I can see why it offended.

Again, I'm very sorry. 

Now that makes total sense, and doesn't even necessitate unfortunate implications appearing regarding Serendipity's status (I'm still not fond of the only transgendered person in the game being a prostitute, but I doubt that was your idea). You are forgiven.

[AlexXIV]

Reaverwind wrote...

inzesky wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Wait, seriously? Is there a video up anywhere or anything?

Imma be pissed, BioWare.

I second this. Can someone post a link or something?

edit: Nevermind. Thanks masterthief.

edit 2: Wow. That whole scene was cringeworthy and utterly pointless.

No worse than the scenes with Isabella or numerous other scenes.Where's the outrage over her running around with her ****** and ass hanging out?

If you had been here at the right time you wouldn't have missed it. Because there was quite an uproar.

[payroo]

jbblue05 wrote...

Typical all you have to do is play the victim

No
one enjoys the feeling of being ostracized - no one wants to be a
victim. But it's impossible to sit back and brush off what might seem
like "just humor" when trans people still face very real consequences of
discrimation. It's like saying to a hungry child: "stop playing the
hunger card!"

I am cisgendered and I am not the victim here - but it still bothers me to see my fellow human beings discriminated against.

You are probably trolling. Congratulations! It's working - I'm getting pissed.

Anyroad2 wrote...

payroo wrote...

If that alone was supposed to be the punchline of the joke, there would be no need to use Serendipity specifically.

Kirby came in here and said that makigng fun of trans people wasnt her intent when writing the scene.
Bran enjoys Serendipity. He brought her to this event because of their relationship (whether it be strickly professional or not). It wouldnt have made sense if Bran brougth someone else.

Intent or not, how people interpret the scene and how it affects them emotionally and possibly even triggers/damages them is what matters. What's the point you're trying to make - that people who have a gut emotional reaction to this aren't justified in doing so?

Anyways, I can see that Mary Kirby has clarified what was going on behind the scenes and even though I know what the situation is, I would never have known if I didn't frequent these boards (as the vast majority of gamers do not).

Anyroad2 wrote...

payroo wrote...

Having people feel uncomfortable because of the way you are, because of your very state of being sounds pretty wrong to me.

Look, I don't see the point in arguing about whether or not the scene was offensive. Mary Kirby already went and apologized - clearly, she does acknowledge that there is a problem.

I had an art teacher once who constantly looked over the shoulders of his students while we worked and put his hands on our shoulders while doing so. Thats uncomfortable, but thats also how my teacher was. I don't think he felt like he was doing anything wrong. Was it wrong for us to be uncomfortable with him?

That's a behavorial thing, while being trans is a state of being. There is something seriously wrong with being uncomfortable in someone's presence because of their state of being - whether it be gender, skin color, sexual orientation. If you can't see that much, I don't know what else to say to you.

[Melca36]

Zanallen wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

The scene plays differently if Hawke has slept with Serendipity. In that version, she greets Hawke familiarly, and hints that everyone at the Blooming Rose is looking forward to Hawke's next visit. That's what Tallis and Hawke are responding to, because I thoughtlessly did not write an alternate version of the middle or end of the conversation in the event that the player hadn't slept with Serendiptiy. I just linked around the familiar part of the conversation to the same ending. So yes, in this version, the most reasonable assumption would be that the source of the awkwardness is not a discussion of Hawke's popularity at the Rose in front of both their dates, it seems to be Serendipty herself, because no conversation has occured in this version of the scene. Tallis' line doesn't even make sense in this case, because there's no topic to change.  There's nothing else for Tallis and Hawke to be reacting to.   It's an absolutely terrible scene, and I can see why it offended.

Again, I'm very sorry. 

Ha! So that's what happened. Well, no chance of fixing that.

So in essence this points to flaws in the dialogue wheel?

[Xilizhra]

So in essence this points to flaws in the dialogue wheel?

No, just in acknowledging previous scenes.

[Zanallen]

Melca36 wrote...

So in essence this points to flaws in the dialogue wheel?

What? How did you get that? This is all about the writer forgetting to write alternate scenes for a Hawke who didn't sleep with Serendipity. It has nothing to do with the dialogue wheel at all.

[twincast]

Well, there would be nothing wrong with a good joke (even if the heavily lopsided history of portrayal of transgender and transsexual people would sadly leave a bitter taste anyway), but this cheap clusterfrak just totally fails at execution, ending up nothing but plain old offensive.

edit: reads Mary's posts... Ah, I see. Don't know what else there'd be to say.

Modifié par twincast, 09 octobre 2011 - 10:58 .

[Merci357]

My take on it is, you can (and should) be allowed to make a joke about a minority.

If I have to treat anyone different, just because they are black/jewish/queer/whatever, then we have a problem. Making jokes about cliches is fine as long as it's targets a majority, but wrong if it targets a minority? There is something awfully wrong with this. This has nothing to do with respect or the lack of it, it would be normal to do so.