497 réponses à ce sujet

[TastesLikeTNT]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Moussey wrote...

What other meaning is there, if it has nothing to do with transgenderism or Serendipity being an unconventional person?

The scene plays differently if Hawke has slept with Serendipity. In that version, she greets Hawke familiarly, and hints that everyone at the Blooming Rose is looking forward to Hawke's next visit. That's what Tallis and Hawke are responding to, because I thoughtlessly did not write an alternate version of the middle or end of the conversation in the event that the player hadn't slept with Serendiptiy. I just linked around the familiar part of the conversation to the same ending. So yes, in this version, the most reasonable assumption would be that the source of the awkwardness is not a discussion of Hawke's popularity at the Rose in front of both their dates, it seems to be Serendipty herself, because no conversation has occured in this version of the scene. Tallis' line doesn't even make sense in this case, because there's no topic to change.  There's nothing else for Tallis and Hawke to be reacting to.   It's an absolutely terrible scene, and I can see why it offended.

Again, I'm very sorry. 

Oh. Well, that does make a lot more sense.

Modifié par TastesLikeTNT, 09 octobre 2011 - 11:01 .

[Melca36]

Xilizhra wrote...

So in essence this points to flaws in the dialogue wheel?

No, just in acknowledging previous scenes.

Hopefully that wont happen again.  I think instead of removing the scene people could just ignore the npcs that dont need to be clicked on

[Morroian]

Ferris95 wrote...

PresidentCowboy wrote...

It's not even out officially yet, so...

Exactly, so it should be fairly easy. If they did remove it my respect for the company will only grow. It would be beyond cool of them.

Its not that easy, the DLC approval process for xbox360 and PS3 is involved, changes can't be made just like that.

[AlexXIV]

Anyroad2 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Bioware is screwed either way.

Bioware always are.

Bioware will never satisfy everyone. I mean come on, people arent even satisfied the writer of the scene came into this thread and appoligized. Now they want the whole scene taken out.

Give me a break.

Well I may be leaning out of the window with this comparision, but I'll try anyway. You can't wear for example a t-shirt with a racist message on it, and if someone complains about it, you just apologize and then go on and keep wearing it. Doesn't make sense. If you apologize and mean it honest you will not wear it anymore. Lesson learned. So that's why changing or removing it is necessary to even make the apology creditable.

A racist messages are pretty blatant. The person wearing the shirt knows what the message is, and probably knows very well that it will offend.

The writer of this scene didnt intend to offend people with this. She intended something else (what, we dont know).

One is deliberate. The other is not. Thats the diffrence.

That's not the point. They now know what is wrong with it. Obvious or not, they now know. So they should change it. Also I think not all racist messages are obvious to everyone. It could be something related to history and the guy wearing it just didn't pay attention at school. I don't claim that Bioware did it on purpose. But now it has been brought up, they should fix it. It's not even out yet, so you can't tell me it can't be fixed. As MK explained it was a matter of bad text linking. Not sure if they need new VO to fix it, but I think they should do whatever needs to be done. For integrity sake.

[Melca36]

Zanallen wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

So in essence this points to flaws in the dialogue wheel?

What? How did you get that? This is all about the writer forgetting to write alternate scenes for a Hawke who didn't sleep with Serendipity. It has nothing to do with the dialogue wheel at all.

Yeah. You're right. My bad. :happy:   Cold Meds made me a bit confused there lol

[Zanallen]

Morroian wrote...

Its not that easy, the DLC approval process for xbox360 and PS3 is involved, changes can't be made just like that.

They would probably also have to bug test it again to make sure removing the code for the conversation didn't muck up something else. Realisticly, we would be looking at a three to four week delay.

[Melca36]

AlexXIV wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Bioware is screwed either way.

Bioware always are.

Bioware will never satisfy everyone. I mean come on, people arent even satisfied the writer of the scene came into this thread and appoligized. Now they want the whole scene taken out.

Give me a break.

Well I may be leaning out of the window with this comparision, but I'll try anyway. You can't wear for example a t-shirt with a racist message on it, and if someone complains about it, you just apologize and then go on and keep wearing it. Doesn't make sense. If you apologize and mean it honest you will not wear it anymore. Lesson learned. So that's why changing or removing it is necessary to even make the apology creditable.

A racist messages are pretty blatant. The person wearing the shirt knows what the message is, and probably knows very well that it will offend.

The writer of this scene didnt intend to offend people with this. She intended something else (what, we dont know).

One is deliberate. The other is not. Thats the diffrence.

That's not the point. They now know what is wrong with it. Obvious or not, they now know. So they should change it. Also I think not all racist messages are obvious to everyone. It could be something related to history and the guy wearing it just didn't pay attention at school. I don't claim that Bioware did it on purpose. But now it has been brought up, they should fix it. It's not even out yet, so you can't tell me it can't be fixed. As MK explained it was a matter of bad text linking. Not sure if they need new VO to fix it, but I think they should do whatever needs to be done. For integrity sake.

Its not mandatory to click on them. Censorship is wrong on any level.  Theres to much of it going on as it is.

[Melca36]

Zanallen wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Its not that easy, the DLC approval process for xbox360 and PS3 is involved, changes can't be made just like that.

They would probably also have to bug test it again to make sure removing the code for the conversation didn't muck up something else. Realisticly, we would be looking at a three to four week delay.

Its not madatory to click those npcs.

I think people should ignore it. The writer has apologized. The people who demand its removal would be equating themselves to those people who want particular books banned in school. Censorship is wrong on any level. Its best to rise above.

Mary Kirby gave a very sincere apology.   That should count for something.

[ipgd]

you know as an actual transy-ish person i seriously do not see what the big deal is

Bioware does not hate trans people. I am not any more offended by Serendipity than I am by Herren or Wade because I am capable of actually forming opinions with full context in mind. I am familiar enough with Bioware's writers and their history to know that they are not abhorrent "transphobic" bigots and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt instead of coming to the forums to proclaim how they are completely disgusting human beings that deserve to be lynched.

I'd really rather save my outrage for people who are legitimately malicious than scour every media depiction with a microscope, hunting for the smallest missteps in order to make an enemy of people who have repeatedly demonstrated themselves to be on my side.

[AlexXIV]

Merci357 wrote...

My take on it is, you can (and should) be allowed to make a joke about a minority.

If I have to treat anyone different, just because they are black/jewish/queer/whatever, then we have a problem. Making jokes about cliches is fine as long as it's targets a majority, but wrong if it targets a minority? There is something awfully wrong with this. This has nothing to do with respect or the lack of it, it would be normal to do so.

It depends on what kind of jokes. Some are rather harmless, some rather not. You wouldn't make jokes about putting jews into concentration camps either if you sat at a table with people who had lost relatives in them, would you? It's all about the line and crossing it. And I really don't think we or anyone needs Bioware to add to homophobia or transphobia etc.

[Doveberry]

I hope there might be some way to fix this. It's a rather unpleasant scene as it is in its current state.

[payroo]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Moussey wrote...

What other meaning is there, if it has nothing to do with transgenderism or Serendipity being an unconventional person?

The scene plays differently if Hawke has slept with Serendipity. In that version, she greets Hawke familiarly, and hints that everyone at the Blooming Rose is looking forward to Hawke's next visit. That's what Tallis and Hawke are responding to, because I thoughtlessly did not write an alternate version of the middle or end of the conversation in the event that the player hadn't slept with Serendiptiy. I just linked around the familiar part of the conversation to the same ending. So yes, in this version, the most reasonable assumption would be that the source of the awkwardness is not a discussion of Hawke's popularity at the Rose in front of both their dates, it seems to be Serendipty herself, because no conversation has occured in this version of the scene. Tallis' line doesn't even make sense in this case, because there's no topic to change.  There's nothing else for Tallis and Hawke to be reacting to.   It's an absolutely terrible scene, and I can see why it offended.

Again, I'm very sorry. 

Thanks very much for clarifying that, Ms. Kirby - while intent can't be always be known in the end product, it does make me feel better to know it wasn't intentional.

[AlexXIV]

Melca36 wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Its not that easy, the DLC approval process for xbox360 and PS3 is involved, changes can't be made just like that.

They would probably also have to bug test it again to make sure removing the code for the conversation didn't muck up something else. Realisticly, we would be looking at a three to four week delay.

Censorship is wrong on any level. Its best to rise above.

That's why nothing ever gets censored and all who censor anything are fascists. Right? Right. /sarcasm

Modifié par AlexXIV, 09 octobre 2011 - 11:06 .

[MsKehoe]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Moussey wrote...

What other meaning is there, if it has nothing to do with transgenderism or Serendipity being an unconventional person?

The scene plays differently if Hawke has slept with Serendipity. In that version, she greets Hawke familiarly, and hints that everyone at the Blooming Rose is looking forward to Hawke's next visit. That's what Tallis and Hawke are responding to, because I thoughtlessly did not write an alternate version of the middle or end of the conversation in the event that the player hadn't slept with Serendiptiy. I just linked around the familiar part of the conversation to the same ending. So yes, in this version, the most reasonable assumption would be that the source of the awkwardness is not a discussion of Hawke's popularity at the Rose in front of both their dates, it seems to be Serendipty herself, because no conversation has occured in this version of the scene. Tallis' line doesn't even make sense in this case, because there's no topic to change.  There's nothing else for Tallis and Hawke to be reacting to.   It's an absolutely terrible scene, and I can see why it offended.

Again, I'm very sorry. 

I don't think you guys sit in your rooms maliciously thinking up ways to harm people like me. It's just a lack of foresight. I would have liked to see more of a set up to that joke. I also still think there's a problem with the portrayal of trans* characters over all, but I know that can't be rectified right now. Maybe in future DLC or future games. I'll cross my fingers.

I'll still buy the DLC, because again, I like this game. Yet I just wanted to make it clear what isn't working for me. Thank you again for taking the time to respond and read my post.

I'll just sit quietly here, taking some pleasure in Seneschal Bran bringing Serendipity as a date, because he's the god damn seneschal.

[Xilizhra]

Bioware does not hate trans people. I am not any more offended by Serendipity than I am by Herren or Wade because I am capable of actually forming opinions with full context in mind. I am familiar enough with Bioware's writers and their history to know that they are not abhorrent "transphobic" bigots and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt instead of coming to the forums to proclaim how they are completely disgusting human beings that deserve to be lynched.

I don't think anyone said they deserved to be lynched, just that they'd fallen into a trap of cultural preconceptions. And if people hadn't gotten pissed at this, we'd never have gotten the real reason for it and Bioware would have learned nothing. No enemies have been made.

[MsKehoe]

ipgd wrote...

you know as an actual transy-ish person i seriously do not see what the big deal is

Bioware does not hate trans people. I am not any more offended by Serendipity than I am by Herren or Wade because I am capable of actually forming opinions with full context in mind. I am familiar enough with Bioware's writers and their history to know that they are not abhorrent "transphobic" bigots and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt instead of coming to the forums to proclaim how they are completely disgusting human beings that deserve to be lynched.

I'd really rather save my outrage for people who are legitimately malicious than scour every media depiction with a microscope, hunting for the smallest missteps in order to make an enemy of people who have repeatedly demonstrated themselves to be on my side.

Woah, you really blew my post out of proportion. I'm not calling them disgusting human beings that need to be lynched. I'm expressing my concerns about the franchise and the portrayal of trans* characters. I even said multiple times that I do love this game and that's why I'm here--because I love this game and I want it to improve.

And while you may not be offended--really, good for you--I am and other trans* people are too. I say it's better to err on the side of caution than to alienate a portion of your audience.

[Anyroad2]

Payroo...

This'll be the third or fourth time Ive said this in this thread.
I feel badly that people assumed that the scene was making fun of trans*. I understand, and I'm telling them what they are allowed to be upset over. However, for whatever reason, I see things differently. I didnt see trans* even being involved in the writing or acting there. I'm trying to help people see my view of this... so they wont feel disgust in Bioware for something that was unintentional.

payroo wrote...
There is something seriously wrong with being uncomfortable in someone's presence because of their state of being - whether it be gender, skin color, sexual orientation.

You're right. It is wrong. People shouldn't feel uncomfortable in someones presence because of their state of being. That doesnt mean that its unnatural for people to feel that way.

If Hawke and Tallis were reacting that way because of Serendipity being trans* then those fictional characters were wrong.

Modifié par Anyroad2, 09 octobre 2011 - 11:24 .

[Xewaka]

Mary Kirby wrote...

To the OP and others offended by this scene:

I am deeply sorry. It wasn't my intent to make Serendipity the punchline of that conversation or to depict her in a negative light. But my intent as the writer doesn't matter. What I was trying to do failed, and ultimately, what came across to you was hurtful, and that does matter. And for that, I cannot apologize enough. Again, I'm very sorry.

You shouldn't need to apologize to people who go out of their way to be offended at a Venture Bros shout-out joke.

[Zanallen]

Melca36 wrote...

Its not madatory to click those npcs.

I think people should ignore it. The writer has apologized. The people who demand its removal would be equating themselves to those people who want particular books banned in school. Censorship is wrong on any level. Its best to rise above.

Mary Kirby gave a very sincere apology.   That should count for something.

Oh I agree. I think removing it would be rather silly. It was an unfortunate mistake and there has been an apology. Removing the content would just delay the DLC by a few weeks to a month and most likely will cause people to troll the forums with cries of them being denied content because Bioware gave into the transsexuals or some other nonsense. It'll be the "Gaider is forcing homosexuality down our throats!" threads all over again.

[Xilizhra]

Zanallen wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Its not madatory to click those npcs.

I think people should ignore it. The writer has apologized. The people who demand its removal would be equating themselves to those people who want particular books banned in school. Censorship is wrong on any level. Its best to rise above.

Mary Kirby gave a very sincere apology.   That should count for something.

Oh I agree. I think removing it would be rather silly. It was an unfortunate mistake and there has been an apology. Removing the content would just delay the DLC by a few weeks to a month and most likely will cause people to troll the forums with cries of them being denied content because Bioware gave into the transsexuals or some other nonsense. It'll be the "Gaider is forcing homosexuality down our throats!" threads all over again.

Oh, I'd welcome that. The whining would be delicious.

[MsKehoe]

Xewaka wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

To the OP and others offended by this scene:

I am deeply sorry. It wasn't my intent to make Serendipity the punchline of that conversation or to depict her in a negative light. But my intent as the writer doesn't matter. What I was trying to do failed, and ultimately, what came across to you was hurtful, and that does matter. And for that, I cannot apologize enough. Again, I'm very sorry.

You shouldn't need to apologize to people who go out of their way to be offended at a Venture Bros shout-out joke.

I'm finding it amusing people think I go out of my way to be ostracized, offended, hurt, and otherwise dehumanized like it's a walk in the park. 

[Satyricon331]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Moussey wrote...
What other meaning is there, if it has nothing to do with transgenderism or Serendipity being an unconventional person?

The scene plays differently if Hawke has slept with Serendipity. In that version, she greets Hawke familiarly, and hints that everyone at the Blooming Rose is looking forward to Hawke's next visit. That's what Tallis and Hawke are responding to, because I thoughtlessly did not write an alternate version of the middle or end of the conversation in the event that the player hadn't slept with Serendiptiy. I just linked around the familiar part of the conversation to the same ending. So yes, in this version, the most reasonable assumption would be that the source of the awkwardness is not a discussion of Hawke's popularity at the Rose in front of both their dates, it seems to be Serendipty herself, because no conversation has occured in this version of the scene. Tallis' line doesn't even make sense in this case, because there's no topic to change.  There's nothing else for Tallis and Hawke to be reacting to.   It's an absolutely terrible scene, and I can see why it offended.

Again, I'm very sorry. 

Thank you for your responses on this matter; they help a great deal.

[Blacklash93]

I didn't think it was that bad, pretty tame considering some other trans jokes I've seen in the media. But I am one of the people who is kind of sick of trans people being painted as disgusting and gross. I know a trans person who is very up-front about her gender and isn't wildly seductive or a sexual trickster in the least. Yet she faces the same stereotypes that plague our society. It's not right.

And ReconTeam, I don't know what you posted, but I assume it was your usual douchebaggery. Preying on who is likely a very emotionally vulnerable trans person is not cool. That's like calling someone diagnosed with depression a worthless whiner. Show some sensitivity.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 09 octobre 2011 - 11:15 .

[Zanallen]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't think anyone said they deserved to be lynched, just that they'd fallen into a trap of cultural preconceptions. And if people hadn't gotten pissed at this, we'd never have gotten the real reason for it and Bioware would have learned nothing. No enemies have been made.

Lol, and what exactly do you think you have taught Bioware? What have they "learned" from this? To double check the script before handing it over?