497 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Zanallen wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't think anyone said they deserved to be lynched, just that they'd fallen into a trap of cultural preconceptions. And if people hadn't gotten pissed at this, we'd never have gotten the real reason for it and Bioware would have learned nothing. No enemies have been made.

Lol, and what exactly do you think you have taught Bioware? What have they "learned" from this? To double check the script before handing it over?

That's never a bad lesson.

[Melca36]

ipgd wrote...

you know as an actual transy-ish person i seriously do not see what the big deal is

Bioware does not hate trans people. I am not any more offended by Serendipity than I am by Herren or Wade because I am capable of actually forming opinions with full context in mind. I am familiar enough with Bioware's writers and their history to know that they are not abhorrent "transphobic" bigots and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt instead of coming to the forums to proclaim how they are completely disgusting human beings that deserve to be lynched.

I'd really rather save my outrage for people who are legitimately malicious than scour every media depiction with a microscope, hunting for the smallest missteps in order to make an enemy of people who have repeatedly demonstrated themselves to be on my side.

Chaz Bono and DWTS have gotten death threats.  That is more legitimately malicious to me.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Melca36 wrote...

So in essence this points to flaws in the dialogue wheel?

The wheel has nothing to do with it. It's just a matter of flags and followup NPC dialogue. Could have happened in a dialogue list too.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 09 octobre 2011 - 11:17 .

[addiction21]

MsKehoe wrote...

I'm finding it amusing people think I go out of my way to be ostracized, offended, hurt, and otherwise dehumanized like it's a walk in the park. 

It is how the internet works.

[Reaverwind]

ipgd wrote...

you know as an actual transy-ish person i seriously do not see what the big deal is

Bioware does not hate trans people. I am not any more offended by Serendipity than I am by Herren or Wade because I am capable of actually forming opinions with full context in mind. I am familiar enough with Bioware's writers and their history to know that they are not abhorrent "transphobic" bigots and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt instead of coming to the forums to proclaim how they are completely disgusting human beings that deserve to be lynched.

I'd really rather save my outrage for people who are legitimately malicious than scour every media depiction with a microscope, hunting for the smallest missteps in order to make an enemy of people who have repeatedly demonstrated themselves to be on my side.

I don't know what the big deal is, either. The linked scene was simply an example of poorly expressed innuendo because someone decided to take shortcuts with the dialogue. It's no more painful to watch than the other spectacular fails showcased on YouTube.

[MsKehoe]

addiction21 wrote...

MsKehoe wrote...

I'm finding it amusing people think I go out of my way to be ostracized, offended, hurt, and otherwise dehumanized like it's a walk in the park. 

It is how the internet works.

I'm pretty sure it's how real life works too or do you think that cissexism and heterosexism is only found on the internet?

[naledgeborn]

Cold world. Kill or be killed. Adapt.

[Xilizhra]

naledgeborn wrote...

Cold world. Kill or be killed. Adapt.

We have. In this conversation, we've won.

Of course, if the solution is killing... well, that may be something to consider.

[MsKehoe]

naledgeborn wrote...

Cold world. Kill or be killed. Adapt.

lol, are you actually justifying hate crimes there?

[naledgeborn]

Nope just explaining the simplicities of human nature. And won what? An internet pissing contest? Forgive me for not joining in the standing ovation lol.

[Xilizhra]

naledgeborn wrote...

Nope just explaining the simplicities of human nature. And won what? An internet pissing contest? Forgive me for not joining in the standing ovation lol.

If you don't care, why are you still here?

[MsKehoe]

naledgeborn wrote...

Nope just explaining the simplicities of human nature. And won what? An internet pissing contest? Forgive me for not joining in the standing ovation lol.

Well, I did get an apology and response from the writer of that scene, so...I think that earns points in my book.

You don't have to applaud.  I'm not asking you to. It's not your fight.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

For the record, I played the scene with a diplomatic Hawke and didn't find it offensive. Sure, Tallis goes 'Awkward...' but it all gets a bit precious when we start to lambaste people for expressing, mildly, they feel uncomfortable about something. Your PC doesn't have to make fun of the situation, so it's not like we're being forced to point and laugh.

I do sympathise about transgender characters only appearing in stereotypical roles, however. DA2 was refreshing for things like Aveline being a strong warrior woman who isn't treated like a sexual object, but we can't expect Bioware, or any game developer, to get everything right. At least they know now, right?

(And thanks to Mary for clarifying that dialogue for us. )

[naledgeborn]

What I care about is a person who is having trouble coping. I have PTSD so I can some what relate to the OP about isolation. It's a real problem with me and my wife. What I'm trying to say is toughen up. It won't get any easier. So you either lay down and let the world screw you or punch right back. Crying about laying down is not punching back.

[SurrealSadi]

Had I seen that scene(Thank you youtube) before reading Ms Kirby's explanation and apologies, I would have been a little taken aback. Understanding now what Ms Kirby intended and what was executed, I can understand why people are up in arms over this, but I also know Bioware wouldn't go out of their way to be overtly....racist/sexist like that.

[ipgd]

MsKehoe wrote...

Woah, you really blew my post out of proportion. I'm not calling them disgusting human beings that need to be lynched. I'm expressing my concerns about the franchise and the portrayal of trans* characters. I even said multiple times that I do love this game and that's why I'm here--because I love this game and I want it to improve.

And while you may not be offended--really, good for you--I am and other trans* people are too. I say it's better to err on the side of caution than to alienate a portion of your audience.

I'm not responding to you specifically. I am responding to all of the people, most of whom are not even trans, who seem to go out of their way to be offended by everything and use language like "completely disgusting" and "transphobic" for a scene that seriously is not that offensive even completely disregarding Bioware's positive handlings of LGB themes in the past. If this were the Westboro Baptist Church's development studio, maybe I'd understand the scrutiny and the zealous accusations of bigotry, but it's Bioware. They weren't trying to ridicule trans people. At the very worst it's something that could offend people who are looking to be offended, which, fair enough, that offense is still real offense for the people experiencing it and it could have been handled better, but this is not a serious example of bigotry and the Bioware writers do not deserve some of the language being leveled at them over this.

This is an issue that isn't even confined to this singular incident. There is a lot of hypersensitivity in the LGBT community as a whole, and I really do not think it is productive to completely ignore context and intent and focus outrage upon people and groups who obviously mean well when there is actual bigotry and actual people who hate gays/trans people/etc. to complain about. I don't see the point in getting up in arms over this any more than I would **** my pants over Glee using "tranny" or Louis C.K. saying "****got". Context manners. Intent matters. Ignore them and you will spend your entire life in a catatonic heap created through your own persecution complex.

Modifié par ipgd, 09 octobre 2011 - 11:29 .

[Blacklash93]

[combative post removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 10 octobre 2011 - 03:07 .

[MsKehoe]

naledgeborn wrote...

What I care about is a person who is having trouble coping. I have PTSD so I can some what relate to the OP about isolation. It's a real problem with me and my wife. What I'm trying to say is toughen up. It won't get any easier. So you either lay down and let the world screw you or punch right back. Crying about laying down is not punching back.

I am the OP and believe me, I'm toughening up. Laying out myself on this forum where I know there's going to be ignorant people ready to tear me apart is what I call toughening up. I toughen up every day when I go out wearing men's clothes despite not being on testosterone or having a feminine name or being five feet. 

Expressing my concerns with a game I enjoy on a forum that isn't exactly the most queer friendly place? Expressing my concerns where I know the creators are going to see it, because this matters to me? That's what I call toughening up and punching back.

But maybe we have different definitions of what it means to "toughen up".

[Xilizhra]

ipgd wrote...

MsKehoe wrote...

Woah, you really blew my post out of proportion. I'm not calling them disgusting human beings that need to be lynched. I'm expressing my concerns about the franchise and the portrayal of trans* characters. I even said multiple times that I do love this game and that's why I'm here--because I love this game and I want it to improve.

And while you may not be offended--really, good for you--I am and other trans* people are too. I say it's better to err on the side of caution than to alienate a portion of your audience.

I'm not responding to you specifically. I am responding to all of the people, most of whom are not even trans, who seem to go out of their way to be offended by everything and use language like "completely disgusting" and "transphobic" for a scene that seriously is not that offensive even completely disregarding Bioware's positive handlings of LGB themes in the past. If this were the Westboro Baptist Church's development studio, maybe I'd understand the scrutiny and the zealous accusations of bigotry, but it's Bioware. They weren't trying to ridicule trans people. At the very worst it's something that could offend people who are looking to be offended, which, fair enough, that offense is still real offense for the people experiencing it and it could have been handled better, but this is not a serious example of bigotry and the Bioware writers do not deserve some of the language being leveled at them over this.

This is an issue that isn't even confined to this singular incident. There is a lot of hypersensitivity in the LGBT community as a whole, and I really do not think it is productive to completely ignore context and intent and focus outrage upon people and groups who obviously mean well when there is actual bigotry and actual people who hate gays/trans people/etc. to complain about. I don't see the point in getting up in arms over this any more than I would **** my pants over Glee using "tranny" or Louis C.K. saying "****got". Context manners. Intent matters. Ignore them and you will spend your entire life in a catatonic heap created through your own persecution complex.

Reasonable, but this is just a few hours of people being upset, they got an apology, and now except for a few stragglers, the issue is mostly solved. Nice and easy. Additionally, actual outrage may not always be helpful, but awareness--the ability to find things like this and point them out--is vital. If the amount of anger was the problem in your eyes, that's a different story.

[Kmead15]

Do you think you could edit the OP to add Mary Kirby's explanation? I just found out about this and spent a couple minutes being bothered before I finally got through enough pages to learned what had really happened.

[naledgeborn]

MsKehoe wrote...

I am the OP and believe me, I'm toughening up. Laying out myself on this forum where I know there's going to be ignorant people ready to tear me apart is what I call toughening up. I toughen up every day when I go out wearing men's clothes despite not being on testosterone or having a feminine name or being five feet. 

Expressing my concerns with a game I enjoy on a forum that isn't exactly the most queer friendly place? Expressing my concerns where I know the creators are going to see it, because this matters to me? That's what I call toughening up and punching back.

But maybe we have different definitions of what it means to "toughen up".

Baby steps no doubt. I can respect that. Try real life support groups instead of internet forums though. They help.

[ipgd]

Xilizhra wrote...

Reasonable, but this is just a few hours of people being upset, they got an apology, and now except for a few stragglers, the issue is mostly solved. Nice and easy. Additionally, actual outrage may not always be helpful, but awareness--the ability to find things like this and point them out--is vital. If the amount of anger was the problem in your eyes, that's a different story.

A "hey, this could have been hurtful to some people, you should be more mindful when handling minority issues" is reasonable. People using words like "completely disgusting" and "transphobic" is reactionary, hyperbolic and hypersensitive. The section of those people who were legitimately offended enough for those words to accurately describe their outrage, frankly speaking, need to get a thicker skin. There is a point in which you are complicit in your own suffering.

[Tommyspa]

There are more important things to worry about than this.

[Xilizhra]

ipgd wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Reasonable, but this is just a few hours of people being upset, they got an apology, and now except for a few stragglers, the issue is mostly solved. Nice and easy. Additionally, actual outrage may not always be helpful, but awareness--the ability to find things like this and point them out--is vital. If the amount of anger was the problem in your eyes, that's a different story.

A "hey, this could have been hurtful to some people, you should be more mindful when handling minority issues" is reasonable. People using words like "completely disgusting" and "transphobic" is reactionary, hyperbolic and hypersensitive. The section of those people who were legitimately offended enough for those words to accurately describe their outrage, frankly speaking, need to get a thicker skin. There is a point in which you are complicit in your own suffering.

I highly doubt that the reactions would have been this strong if the OP hadn't themselves been transsexual and depressed. I think a lot of it was sympathy-related.