497 réponses à ce sujet

[LyndseyCousland]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Moussey wrote...

What other meaning is there, if it has nothing to do with transgenderism or Serendipity being an unconventional person?

The scene plays differently if Hawke has slept with Serendipity. In that version, she greets Hawke familiarly, and hints that everyone at the Blooming Rose is looking forward to Hawke's next visit. That's what Tallis and Hawke are responding to, because I thoughtlessly did not write an alternate version of the middle or end of the conversation in the event that the player hadn't slept with Serendiptiy. I just linked around the familiar part of the conversation to the same ending. So yes, in this version, the most reasonable assumption would be that the source of the awkwardness is not a discussion of Hawke's popularity at the Rose in front of both their dates, it seems to be Serendipty herself, because no conversation has occured in this version of the scene. Tallis' line doesn't even make sense in this case, because there's no topic to change.  There's nothing else for Tallis and Hawke to be reacting to.   It's an absolutely terrible scene, and I can see why it offended.

Again, I'm very sorry. 

Am I the only one that didn't think it alluded to the idea of transphobia? If anything it seemed to be about the fact the Seneschal was with an elven ****.

I don't think you have anything to apologise for.

I wish people would choose where to fight their battles against prejudice better. If you spend so much time constructing your own horrors and piddling over that instead of positive activism then I think you're losing part of the fight. Honestly, I'm beginning to lose faith in humanity again.

I'm not even going to bother mentioning the people that are baiting folk. That's just a retarded way to spend your time and attempt to gain self-worth, and if you're older than 14 you should know better. The phrase "Get a life" comes to mind.

Power to equality and power to common sense. Jesus Jumping Christ.

[naledgeborn]

Blacklash93 wrote...

"Supporters of Heterosexuality"

You're at least biased on this issue.

Sure because of my religion. Which could make me a (frequent) "victim". But I don't let it. OP shouldn't either.  

[LyndseyCousland]

*prostitute instead of *****

[MsKehoe]

Kmead15 wrote...

Do you think you could edit the OP to add Mary Kirby's explanation? I just found out about this and spent a couple minutes being bothered before I finally got through enough pages to learned what had really happened.

Sure! Just give me a second.

[Seagloom]

ipgd wrote...

I'm not responding to you specifically. I am responding to all of the people, most of whom are not even trans, who seem to go out of their way to be offended by everything and use language like "completely disgusting" and "transphobic" for a scene that seriously is not that offensive even completely disregarding Bioware's positive handlings of LGB themes in the past. If this were the Westboro Baptist Church's development studio, maybe I'd understand the scrutiny and the zealous accusations of bigotry, but it's Bioware. They weren't trying to ridicule trans people. At the very worst it's something that could offend people who are looking to be offended, which, fair enough, that offense is still real offense for the people experiencing it and it could have been handled better, but this is not a serious example of bigotry and the Bioware writers do not deserve some of the language being leveled at them over this.

This is an issue that isn't even confined to this singular incident. There is a lot of hypersensitivity in the LGBT community as a whole, and I really do not think it is productive to completely ignore context and intent and focus outrage upon people and groups who obviously mean well when there is actual bigotry and actual people who hate gays/trans people/etc. to complain about. I don't see the point in getting up in arms over this any more than I would **** my pants over Glee using "tranny" or Louis C.K. saying "****got". Context manners. Intent matters. Ignore them and you will spend your entire life in a catatonic heap created through your own persecution complex.

The thing is, they made a much more obvious joke at our expense in DAO. Speaking for myself, I never considered BioWare a trans friendly company following DA2. The prostitutes in the Pearl were clearly a retread of the tired "she's really a man!" trope to the point the dialogue teases the player with it. One of the characters in question also had an unmistakably male face with stubble. Now, I know there are plenty of us who look like that, and I am not saying they should project a picture perfect image. But it is obvious they choose that appearance as part of the joke and not to make a meaningful statement.

Then DA2 introduces us to Serendipity. Her appearance is a similar gag, turned on its head. Instead of male-seeming trans woman she is passably feminine, but has a male voice and makes a similar self referencing gag comment as Hawke leaves to conduct her or his business.

When I saw the footage of Serendipity's Mask of the Assassin scene, I was not merely looking at that isolated dialogue. I was bringing with me past portrayals of trans characters along for the ride. That salted the wound and made it a lot worse than it might have been. Up until this, I was content to critique this sort of thing privately. As they say though, the third time's the charm.

Yes, there are worse offenders and better targets to focus on. No question. But gaming is a part of my life too. I see no reason to ignore it because "it is just a game". Less so when I consider just how many players a game like this reaches. It may not be as bad as say, the Hangover 2 scene or whatever; but it is visible to a lot of folks, and perpuating the myth that we are bizarre, often prostitutes, and potentially deviants, is not a message I think should ever be sent out there en masse.

That some BioWare staff actually seems to care provides further incentive to speak up anyway. I mean, they are at least likely to listen. I cannot say the same for some of the worst offenders.

Modifié par Seagloom, 09 octobre 2011 - 11:53 .

[LyndseyCousland]

Whizzing against the wind, I fear. *disappears*

[Blacklash93]

naledgeborn wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

"Supporters of Heterosexuality"

You're at least biased on this issue.

Sure because of my religion. Which could make me a (frequent) "victim". But I don't let it. OP shouldn't either.  

I'd just like to get this off my chest.

How does "supporting heterosexuality" suppose opposing homosexualtiy? How is taking options away from others in a blasted videogame support any cause?

It's a self-centered and selfish way of thinking if you ask me.

Sorry if it seems like I'm attacking you. I can't help myself in from getting a little passionate in these heated arguments.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 09 octobre 2011 - 11:52 .

[naledgeborn]

Sure why not. Ok here's the thing I could try to explain why I support heterosexuality specifically in Mass Effect 3 but I won't. I'll accept selfish and self-centered. I'm already painted as the "bad guy" might as well roll with it right?

[addiction21]

MsKehoe wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

MsKehoe wrote...

I'm finding it amusing people think I go out of my way to be ostracized, offended, hurt, and otherwise dehumanized like it's a walk in the park. 

It is how the internet works.

I'm pretty sure it's how real life works too or do you think that cissexism and heterosexism is only found on the internet?

ANd my post was not directed at you and I apologize.

[Pacifien]

I'm sorry, what's being argued here? That someone was offended, whether someone is allowed to be offended, whether you're allowed to be offensive, whether you're allowed to apologize for unintentionally offending, or whether or not it's okay that BioWare follows your morality?

Again, I'm sorry. I'm dumb. I need focus here.

[Blacklash93]

naledgeborn wrote...

Sure why not. Ok here's the thing I could try to explain why I support heterosexuality specifically in Mass Effect 3 but I won't. I'll accept selfish and self-centered. I'm already painted as the "bad guy" might as well roll with it right?

You could try to justify yourself rather then play the hapless victim.

I can take some arguments seriously as long as it doesn't devolve to "OMG the gheys gross!" or "It's against my religion!".

[Blacklash93]

Pacifien wrote...

I'm sorry, what's being argued here? That someone was offended, whether someone is allowed to be offended, whether you're allowed to be offensive, whether you're allowed to apologize for unintentionally offending, or whether or not it's okay that BioWare follows your morality?

Again, I'm sorry. I'm dumb. I need focus here.

Who cares what we're talking about? Just argue with someone, damn it! We don't need your logic!

[addiction21]

Pacifien wrote...

I'm sorry, what's being argued here? That someone was offended, whether someone is allowed to be offended, whether you're allowed to be offensive, whether you're allowed to apologize for unintentionally offending, or whether or not it's okay that BioWare follows your morality?

Again, I'm sorry. I'm dumb. I need focus here.

All of the above and more at thispoint...

[ipgd]

Seagloom wrote...

The thing is, they made a much more obvious joke at our expense in DAO. Speaking for myself, I never considered BioWare a trans friendly company following DA2. The prostitutes in the Pearl were clearly a retread of the tired "she's really a man!" trope to the point the dialogue teases the player with it. One of the characters in question also had an unmistakably male face with stubble. Now, I know there are plenty of us who look like that, and I am not saying they should project a picture perfect image. But it is obvious they choose that appearance as part of the joke and not to make a meaningful statement.

Then DA2 introduces us to Serendipity. Her appearance is a similar gag, turned on its head. Instead of male-seeming trans woman she is passably feminine, but has a male voice and makes a similar self referencing gag comment as Hawke leaves to conduct her or his business.

When I saw the footage of Serendipity's Mask of the Assassin scene, I was not merely looking at that isolated dialogue. I was bringing with me past portrayals of trans characters along for the ride. That salted the wound and made it a lot worse than it might have been. Up until this, I was content to critique this sort of thing privately. As they say though, the third time's the charm.

Yes, there are worse offenders and better targets to focus on. No question. But gaming is a part of my life too. I see no reason to ignore it because "it is just a game". Less so when I consider just how many players a game like this reaches. It may not be as bad as say, the Hangover 2 scene or whatever; but it is visible to a lot of folks, and perpuating the myth that we are bizarre, often prostitutes, and potentially deviants, is not a message I think should ever be sent out there en masse.

That some BioWare staff actually seems to care provides further incentive to speak up anyway. I mean, they are at least likely to listen. I cannot say the same for some of the worst offenders.

I'm not talking about it being "just a game". I'm talking about treating people who support us like abhorrent bigots when they make even the slightest misstep, attributing to it the same weight of the actions of seriously malicious, prejudiced people. This kind of reaction isn't something confined to this singular incident and it accomplishes nothing. Making people afraid of even broaching trans issues at all lest they be met with the most furious retribution we can muster is not going to improve trans media depictions.

Outrage should be proportionate to the actual offense. This is not an offense that deserves the language being bandied about carelessly.

And, really, I feel bad for anyone who can't appreciate a good hooker with a special surprise joke. My life must be so much more fun.

Blacklash93 wrote...

You could try to justify yourself rather then play the hapless victim.

I can take some arguments seriously as long as it doesn't devolve to "OMG the gheys gross!" or "It's against my religion!".

You know this guy is a troll, right. Why are you encouraging him

[naledgeborn]

ipg I'm shocked! Lol. You act as if I haven't defended your posse from actual trolls before. It's just that common custom on BSN is, if enough people don't like to hear (whether substantial or not) what your saying your labeled as a troll.

[Deviija]

While I appreciate the apology and explanation of technical/writer-fu mishap, it still is something really disturbing and disappointing to see. If it were an isolated incident in the Dragon Age franchise specifically, then I would not grimace and scrutinize as much as I am. However, since this isn't an isolated incident in the DA franchise, where poor trans 'gotcha' jokes are used for har-har humor, it turns into something else entirely worrisome and distasteful.

When people bring up these topics and issues of discussion, it is to point something out to the development folks/writers/creative team/company that is problematic so that things can IMPROVE in the future. It also sets an example for the rest of the industry of what is positive and what is negative, what is a good representation and what is a poor one, what enriches our gaming sphere (and the audience's inclusive experience) and what undermines it. This is one of those instances where light is being shined on something that is problematic and needs changing/improvement.

[AlexXIV]

Blacklash93 wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

Sure why not. Ok here's the thing I could try to explain why I support heterosexuality specifically in Mass Effect 3 but I won't. I'll accept selfish and self-centered. I'm already painted as the "bad guy" might as well roll with it right?

You could try to justify yourself rather then play the hapless victim.

I can take some arguments seriously as long as it doesn't devolve to "OMG the gheys gross!" or "It's against my religion!".

Well you can't argue about religion. Because it will always end with 'it is so because God said it'. I mean, how could you possibly argue against the guy who made us and the world etc. ? I mean you could wonder why god is male if he doesn't have sex or why angels need wings to fly if we all know that there is no air in space, etc. but anyway ...

Makes me wonder, can I have a religion that is against religion? And will the right of free choice of religion protect it?

[Seagloom]

ipgd wrote...

I'm not talking about it being "just a game". I'm talking about treating people who support us like abhorrent bigots when they make even the slightest misstep, attributing to it the same weight of the actions of seriously malicious, prejudiced people. This kind of reaction isn't something confined to this singular incident and it accomplishes nothing. Making people afraid of even broaching trans issues at all lest they be met with the most furious retribution we can muster is not going to improve trans media depictions.

Outrage should be proportionate to the actual offense. This is not an offense that deserves the language being bandied about carelessly.

And, really, I feel bad for anyone who can't appreciate a good hooker with a special surprise joke. My life must be so much more fun.

That's the thing though--they haven't shown they support us. It was *not* a singular incident. Prior to Mary Kirby's apology I had no indication whatsoever that I mattered an iota to anyone at BioWare. The previous trans portrayals made it impossible to believe otherwise. I knew BioWare staff was sympathetic to their LGB fanbase's desires. That was it.

Had DAO or DA2 included another obvious trans character who was not a prostitute, and not obviously played off for laughs, I might not be posting here now. I hardly think a handful of people voicing their displeasure over a legitimate incident on an forum is furious retribution. In fact, I do not recall any offended parties at any point posting a hateful rant, climbing on a politically-charged soapbox, or making threats.

While I do not disagree with your ideas on a broader, national political level; I think they are not applicable to this situation. As well, time will tell what this dialogue did or did not accomplish. Considering this has been a running gag in DA so far, I do see it as a potential victory; however minor. The last thing I want to see is this becoming a DA convention a la Shepard punching out a reporter in Mass Effect.

Modifié par Seagloom, 10 octobre 2011 - 12:33 .

[Yrkoon]

naledgeborn wrote...


Seriously people need to grow some balls. No pun intended. How do you think it felt being called a terrorist (albiet jokingly) while serving in the USAF? How do you think it still feels for black people to be called ****s? Guess what most people shrug and keep it moving. Ignorance is not worth the time of day.

I hate pseudo-macho arguments like this.  ("some people have it worse, so suck it up, man!")

  Screw that.  I got a better Idea.   Instead of  "shrugging it off" and acting like its no big deal, how about we  take it seriously and Stamp it out wherever it pops up? 

You are describing  bigotry.   Which certainly IS worth addressing.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 10 octobre 2011 - 12:50 .

[Heather Cline]

I just saw the video and it is ticking me off. I'm a transwoman myself. This is just something I'm upset about. It's not fair that they do this to trans people. I've been a staunch supporter of DA2 even with it' flaws. Seriously Bioware, this is not funny. In fact it's a major insult to many trans people who support your product.

So yeah... not sure if I will be buying this DLC from you.

[Zanallen]

Heather Cline wrote...

I just saw the video and it is ticking me off. I'm a transwoman myself. This is just something I'm upset about. It's not fair that they do this to trans people. I've been a staunch supporter of DA2 even with it' flaws. Seriously Bioware, this is not funny. In fact it's a major insult to many trans people who support your product.

So yeah... not sure if I will be buying this DLC from you.

Did you read the statement made by the writer?

[Heather Cline]

I read only part of it. I went back and read the apology and I'm still upset about it. Still doesn't make it right.

[mousestalker]

Heather Cline wrote...

I read only part of it. I went back and read the apology and I'm still upset about it. Still doesn't make it right.

You may want to read both statements from Mary Kirby. If you have, then my apologies.

Modifié par mousestalker, 10 octobre 2011 - 01:12 .

[slimgrin]

Heather Cline wrote...

I read only part of it. I went back and read the apology and I'm still upset about it. Still doesn't make it right.

Give me a break. Kirby's already apologized for something she didn't have to...

I hate to use the term 'man up' but I think it applies here.

Modifié par casamar, 10 octobre 2011 - 08:03 .

[Heather Cline]

Mousestalker I read both from Mary Kirby.

As for slimgrim, I can be upset about this and even if someone apologizes doesn't mean I have to forgive them or forget about it happening. So don't tell me to 'man up'. I have a right to be upset and I will stay upset for as long as I want to.

Modifié par casamar, 10 octobre 2011 - 08:02 .