497 réponses à ce sujet

[LordKinoda]

'Hardening up' is definitely something the OP should consider for their life in the current state of society IMO. Is that right to expect that from transgender people ? No. But it's realistic. I'm nothing if not a realist. Not so much a cynic, but definitely a realist. Harden your heart, because society at large currently does not accept you, and that you will have to deal with.

The writer of said dialog has apologized for any offense, so I'll go with that. They were going on something else and didn't consider every possible alternative. Which is understandable. I'll still retain my former stance though. NO CENSORSHIP. Even if it offends your sensibilities. I don't care. Maybe they will offend me personally somewhere down the line. I can't say. I still won't begrudge them for it though. Keep towing the line BW. Don't be so afraid of offending people that it affects your content. Create what you will, and let the consequences of said content flow. I for one want to see you go forth with no censorship at all.

[Xerxes52]

Treasure Woman wrote...

Hmmm. I didn't see anything offensive about the video. I thought they were acting that way because he brought a prostitute with him to the Orlesian party. Ah well. :S

Same here at first. I thought "Oh look Bran brought a prostitute to a nobles' party - OMG Dr. Girlfriend!!!" at which point I did laugh my butt off.

Can't say too much on this topic though without getting attacked, I love offensive jokes.

[Gibb_Shepard]

I feel so bad for Bioware. They cannot do anything without self righteous fools chiming in.

[Xilizhra]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I feel so bad for Bioware. They cannot do anything without self righteous fools chiming in.

You know, when Bioware themselves feels remorseful about it, this makes you look like kind of a dolt.

[Zanallen]

Xilizhra wrote...

You know, when Bioware themselves feels remorseful about it, this makes you look like kind of a dolt.

Remorse? I don't see any remorse in Ms. Kirby's post. Which makes sense because she didn't do anything wrong. There was a mistake made. No one was making a joke at the expense of transsexual individuals. Ms. Kirby is sorry that people felt offended by the scene and apologized for that. No remorse involved.

[Radahldo]

"...But my intent as the writer doesn’t matter. What I was trying to do failed, and ultimately, what came across to you was hurtful, and that does matter. And for that, I cannot apologize enough. Again, I’m very sorry."

Sounds like remorse

Modifié par Radahldo, 10 octobre 2011 - 06:27 .

[Zanallen]

Radahldo wrote...

"...But my intent as the writer doesn’t matter. What I was trying to do failed, and ultimately, what came across to you was hurtful, and that does matter. And for that, I cannot apologize enough. Again, I’m very sorry."

Sounds like remorse

Not really. Remorse implies guilt and there is nothing here for her to feel guilty about.

[KazenoKoe]

Got a solution for you OP,there are better video games out there,don't spend your time and energy wondering why DA2 is offensive for you(let's be blunt by now you should know that lots of things are).

INSTEAD go buy/DL and read "The Invisibles" one of the best comic books I've read and DEFINITELY one of the best trans characters ever written.

It ought to put a smile on your face,enjoy

Modifié par KazenoKoe, 10 octobre 2011 - 06:32 .

[ademska]

Zanallen wrote...

Remorse? I don't see any remorse in Ms. Kirby's post. Which makes sense because she didn't do anything wrong. There was a mistake made. No one was making a joke at the expense of transsexual individuals. Ms. Kirby is sorry that people felt offended by the scene and apologized for that. No remorse involved.

the reason people appreciated her apology so much was that she didn't word it this (douchebaggy) way. an 'apology' like yours isn't an apology, it's blaming the people who were offended for their feelings. ms. kirby understands this and instead wrote something both sincere and remorseful, and we all appreciated it.

she also acknowledged that there was literally no other way to interpret the mistake on its face than as cissexism/transphobia. so there you go.

[ademska]

Zanallen wrote...

Not really. Remorse implies guilt and there is nothing here for her to feel guilty about.

no, it doesn't. it implies regret, and there is a huge difference. a bucketload of people were hurt by this clip, and just because you weren't doesn't mean ms. kirby doesn't understand that she made a mistake.

i still fail to understand why so many people get butthurt over others expressing opinions different than their own when those opinions do not hurt anyone. people in this thread who were offended in no way affected you. why do you care so much? what possible reason could you have to fight against them?

[Blastback]

Foolsfolly wrote...

If you mean that transgendered people should tolerate cisgendered people, sure, though I've never known that to be a problem once in my entire life. Otherwise, you're comparing different things.

I'm talking about the OP saying you can't make jokes about it. You can make jokes about anything. And most times the funnest jokes are hurtful.

Outside of that one comment I don't care about this topic.

The indignation isn't that Bioware is making jokes about Transexuals, it's that transexuals in Bioware games are never anything but jokes and/or prostitutes.  What is essentially being asked is that if Bioware is going to include transexual content, have at least some of it be a positive depiction, not all negative.

[Zanallen]

ademska wrote...

the reason people appreciated her apology so much was that she didn't word it this (douchebaggy) way. an 'apology' like yours isn't an apology, it's blaming the people who were offended for their feelings. ms. kirby understands this and instead wrote something both sincere and remorseful, and we all appreciated it.

she also acknowledged that there was literally no other way to interpret the mistake on its face than as cissexism/transphobia. so there you go.

But there are other ways to interpret the mistake. A number of them have been shown in this very thread. Several people thought the joke was about Ban bringing a prostitute to a fancy party.

And the point is that there was a mistake made with no ill intent nor was it even a tastless joke about transsexuals. There is nothing for Ms. Kirby to feel guilty about because she really did nothing wrong aside from forgetting to write a second line of dialogue for a Hawke who didn't sleep with Serendipity.

[ademska]

Filament wrote...

She concurred with the injured parties that it was the most reasonable assumption, not that it was the only one. Significant distinction there...

how does that make a damn bit of difference? the most reasonable assumption was that a trans* person was the source of awkwardness because she is trans*. that is transphobia/cissexism. congratulations, that was the whole point.

"So yes, in this version, the most reasonable assumption would be that the source of the awkwardness is not a
discussion of Hawke’s popularity at the Rose in front of both their dates, it seems to be Serendipty herself, because no conversation has occured in this version of the scene. Tallis’ line doesn’t even make sense in this case, because there’s no topic to change. There’s nothingelse for Tallis and Hawke to be reacting to. It’s an absolutely terrible scene, and I can see why it offended.

Again, I’m very sorry."

and we thank her for her understanding and apology. why are you still protesting this?

Modifié par ademska, 10 octobre 2011 - 06:39 .

[seraphymon]

ademska wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Not really. Remorse implies guilt and there is nothing here for her to feel guilty about.

no, it doesn't. it implies regret, and there is a huge difference. a bucketload of people were hurt by this clip, and just because you weren't doesn't mean ms. kirby doesn't understand that she made a mistake.

i still fail to understand why so many people get butthurt over others expressing opinions different than their own when those opinions do not hurt anyone. people in this thread who were offended in no way affected you. why do you care so much? what possible reason could you have to fight against them?

 
remose implies guilt and regret. But there is nothing to feel guilty about. The apology where you put it as blaming the person for feleling the way that they do is different from actually feeling sorry that they feel that way and can sympathize. but in every day or in every game someone can make or say something that offends a person as much as this without any intent if you think hard enough. So should everyone apologize  everytime this sort of thing happens?

[Radahldo]

Zanallen wrote...


But there are other ways to interpret the mistake. A number of them have been shown in this very thread. Several people thought the joke was about Ban bringing a prostitute to a fancy party.

And the point is that there was a mistake made with no ill intent nor was it even a tastless joke about transsexuals. There is nothing for Ms. Kirby to feel guilty about because she really did nothing wrong aside from forgetting to write a second line of dialogue for a Hawke who didn't sleep with Serendipity.

There isnt a big enough eye roll gif on my computer...

[Zanallen]

ademska wrote...

no, it doesn't. it implies regret, and there is a huge difference. a bucketload of people were hurt by this clip, and just because you weren't doesn't mean ms. kirby doesn't understand that she made a mistake.

i still fail to understand why so many people get butthurt over others expressing opinions different than their own when those opinions do not hurt anyone. people in this thread who were offended in no way affected you. why do you care so much? what possible reason could you have to fight against them?

Remorse: a gnawing distress arising from a sense of guilt for past wrongs : self-reproach

And I don't care. My point is that Ms. Kirby shouldn't have to feel regret because she didn't do anything wrong. She can feel sorry that people were hurt by the unfortunate mistake. I'm sorry that people were hurt as well. However, it was a mistake and it should be left at that. This thread should have ended after she explained what happened.

[ademska]

Zanallen wrote...

But there are other ways to interpret the mistake. A number of them have been shown in this very thread. Several people thought the joke was about Ban bringing a prostitute to a fancy party.

no. tallis did not know serendipity was a prostitute. neither of them reacted negatively until she spoke, but none of this actually matters, because...

And the point is that there was a mistake made with no ill intent nor was it even a tastless joke about transsexuals. There is nothing for Ms. Kirby to feel guilty about because she really did nothing wrong aside from forgetting to write a second line of dialogue for a Hawke who didn't sleep with Serendipity.

what she feels regret and/or guilt (if we're playing semantics) about is that her mistake, her oversight, caused a lot of people pain. if a person makes a mistake, it is not the fault of those who were affected by it. it is the fault of the person who made the mistake.

mary kirby understood this and apologized as such. and because it was an innocent mistake, people have been extremely forgiving. we're all trying to be adults here.

so again, i ask you, why do you have a problem with this?

Modifié par ademska, 10 octobre 2011 - 06:48 .

[Blastback]

Zanallen wrote...

ademska wrote...

no, it doesn't. it implies regret, and there is a huge difference. a bucketload of people were hurt by this clip, and just because you weren't doesn't mean ms. kirby doesn't understand that she made a mistake.

i still fail to understand why so many people get butthurt over others expressing opinions different than their own when those opinions do not hurt anyone. people in this thread who were offended in no way affected you. why do you care so much? what possible reason could you have to fight against them?

Remorse: a gnawing distress arising from a sense of guilt for past wrongs : self-reproach

And I don't care. My point is that Ms. Kirby shouldn't have to feel regret because she didn't do anything wrong. She can feel sorry that people were hurt by the unfortunate mistake. I'm sorry that people were hurt as well. However, it was a mistake and it should be left at that. This thread should have ended after she explained what happened.

Or it could be used to discuss Bioware's treatment of transexuals in future content.  You know, to try to bring about something positive from this little incident. 

[Zanallen]

Blastback wrote...

Or it could be used to discuss Bioware's treatment of transexuals in future content.  You know, to try to bring about something positive from this little incident. 

Nothing good comes from BSN threads. Its a rule.

[Zanallen]

ademska wrote...


no. tallis did not know serendipity was a prostitute. neither of them reacted negatively until she spoke, but none of this actually matters, because...

And how do you know what Tallis does and does not know? She could frequent the Rose herself. She certainly seems promiscuous enough.

what she feels regret and/or guilt (if we're playing semantics) about is that her mistake, her oversight, caused a lot of people pain. if a person makes a mistake, it is not the fault of those who were affected by it. it is the fault of the person who made the mistake.

mary kirby understood this and apologized as such. and because it was an innocent mistake, people have been extremely forgiving. we're all trying to be adults here.

so again, i ask you, why do you have a problem with this?

And as I said, I don't have a problem with this. I am merely saying that there is nothing here for Ms. Kirby to feel guilty about. Becasue it was an innocent mistake. Mistakes happen.

[ademska]

Zanallen wrote...

words

gdi i had typed up a big thing and then i accidentally clicked a bsn popup and lost it, super cool

bottom line: i think our disconnect here is that you exonerate based on authorial intent, when ms. kirby herself admitted that intent means nothing in the face of others' pain.

yes, mistakes happen, and when that mistake hurts whole swaths of people, however unintentional, the adult thing is to recognize your fault in the mistake and apologize, and hope that your sincerity and maturity helps people in pain begin to heal.


edit: i remember the other part now. i can't speak to tallis bc i haven't played it, but people who have assured me that the rose is not plausible with tallis' background, but that does not matter.

if ms. kirby had, god forbid, not made a mistake and the clip was intentional, we could academically analyze it to the hills and back for its real intent, but that wouldn't change the fact that scores of folks were triggered by the completely reasonable conclusions they immediately drew upon seeing it.

Modifié par ademska, 10 octobre 2011 - 07:21 .