497 réponses à ce sujet

[Zjarcal]

I wonder if I was the only person whose Hawke actually slept with Serendipity and got the dialogue Mary Kirby mentioned. That's partly the reason why I never felt disturbed by the scene in any way. Although to be fair, even the alternate scene which the OP is referring to (which I only saw after seeing this thread) didn't bother me that much although I agree, it's completely messed up, mostly from a logical standpoint.

At any rate, it was really classy of Mary Kirby to step in and not only clarify her intention, but also apologize. Kudos to her.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 10 octobre 2011 - 07:24 .

[Esbatty]

TeenZombie wrote...

On one hand, after seeing the youtube clip, my first thought was that it wasn't *that* bad...Tallis and Hawke are uncomfortable, but as a joke, it's very mild. Maybe it's a sad thing, though, that I've seen so many horrendous jokes about transsexuals in the media, that this seems relatively harmless.

On the other hand, as mentioned already, there are almost NO positive portrayals of trans individuals in television, movies, and video games. Bioware has already taken a big step with the inclusion and normalization of homosexuality, so I think this would be an issue that could have been handled with more sensitivity, if at all.

Breakfast on Pluto is a brilliant film.

...

WHOA... you said "almost", sorry... disregard. But I'm leaving this because the above statement is awesomely true.

[Zanallen]

ademska wrote...

- Snip -

Look, I just want to keep the knowledge that this was a mistake and that no joke was at all intended at the forefront. I know how this community works and I know that once this becomes more mainstream, like once the DLC is actually released, there is a very real possibility that this forum is going to errupt. I really don't want this forum to return to ealier levels of hatemongering.

Granted, if the ME3 multi-player chargers are confirmed, this might be completely ignored and the ME forums will become a giant fustercluck.

[Zanallen]

Esbatty wrote...

Breakfast on Pluto is a brilliant film.

...

WHOA... you said "almost", sorry... disregard. But I'm leaving this because the above statement is awesomely true.

I rather enjoyed "To Wong Foo Thanks For Everything, Julie Newmar", "The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert" and "Hedwig and the Angry Inch" as well. Not to mention "The Rocky Horror Picture Show" though I can't be certain if Frank-N-Furter is a positive portrayal or not.

[Carfax]

slimgrin wrote...

But Bioware is fast losing their spine...

LOL Bioware lost their spine years ago..  This is what their incessant pandering to sexual minorities has bought them. 

Now it's only a matter of time before "transgendered" becomes a choice like male and female on the character generation screen.

They can stew in it and rot for all I care though, because Bioware is no longer top dog in the RPG genre. 

[Firky]

Carfax wrote...

Now it's only a matter of time before "transgendered" becomes a choice like male and female on the character generation screen.

I can't picture myself picking it, but I also can't see why including it would be a problem.

More choice is always good in RPGs, right? Like being a gnome or half orc. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but games as far back as Ultima 3 have been giving an "ambiguous style" choice for gender. I think it was "other" in Ultima III.

I just started playing a browser based RPG style game and it gave me a choice of male, female and "stop trying to define my gender" or something along those lines. I picked female but I recognised that the third option was a clever inclusion. (In my opinion.)

And then you just pick a male or female or androgynous looking avatar, based on whatever you want to look like. (No voices.) And then start relationships with people of any gender you like. (I haven't seen a non obviously male/female alternative yet, but I'm not that far in.)

Modifié par Firky, 10 octobre 2011 - 08:19 .

[Gotholhorakh]

Carfax wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

But Bioware is fast losing their spine...

LOL Bioware lost their spine years ago..  This is what their incessant pandering to sexual minorities has bought them. 

Now it's only a matter of time before "transgendered" becomes a choice like male and female on the character generation screen.

They can stew in it and rot for all I care though, because Bioware is no longer top dog in the RPG genre. 

Meh, I think it would be ridiculous, and from a practical/setting standpoint doesn't make any sense at all - but if it did who are you and I to think the choice is bad if someone else would get a kick out of it?

Choice in RPGs is probably always a good thing if it's well implemented.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 10 octobre 2011 - 08:49 .

[Carfax]

Firky wrote...

I can't picture myself picking it, but I also can't see why including it would be a problem.

Whether it would be problematic or not isn't the point.  The point is that this thread is in many ways, the result of years of pandering to sexual minorities by Bioware. 

And the OP is right in that sense.  Bioware goes out of their way to include and represent LGB in their games, but conveniently ignore the "T," or even worse, use them for comic relief.

I have no personal problem with transgendered people, but I just couldn't help pointing out that this thread is merely the result of Bioware's obsession with pandering to sexual minorities.  So when one sexual minority is excluded from the love fest, members of that particular sexual minority (in this case transgenders) have a right to feel angry..

Modifié par Carfax, 10 octobre 2011 - 08:47 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

Carfax wrote...

Firky wrote...

I can't picture myself picking it, but I also can't see why including it would be a problem.

Whether it would be problematic or not isn't the point.  The point is that this thread is in many ways, the result of years of pandering to sexual minorities by Bioware. 

And the OP is right in that sense.  Bioware goes out of their way to include and represent LGB in their games, but conveniently ignore the "T."

I have no personal problem with transgendered people, but I just couldn't help pointing out that this thread is merely the result of Bioware's obsession with pandering to sexual minorities.

x2

[esper]

Firky wrote...

Carfax wrote...

Now it's only a matter of time before "transgendered" becomes a choice like male and female on the character generation screen.

I can't picture myself picking it, but I also can't see why including it would be a problem.

More choice is always good in RPGs, right? Like being a gnome or half orc. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but games as far back as Ultima 3 have been giving an "ambiguous style" choice for gender. I think it was "other" in Ultima III.

I just started playing a browser based RPG style game and it gave me a choice of male, female and "stop trying to define my gender" or something along those lines. I picked female but I recognised that the third option was a clever inclusion. (In my opinion.)

And then you just pick a male or female or androgynous looking avatar, based on whatever you want to look like. (No voices.) And then start relationships with people of any gender you like. (I haven't seen a non obviously male/female alternative yet, but I'm not that far in.)

I agree with Firky on this one. Why would that be a bad thing if bioware could implement it well?

[Carfax]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Choice in RPGs is probably always a good thing if it's well implemented.

Yeah, but the problem is choice (when it concerns sexual identity and behaviour) is very seldom well implemented..

I wouldn't be opposed to the inclusion of a transgendered category, but thinking about Bioware's possible implementations makes me cringe!

[Gotholhorakh]

Carfax wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Choice in RPGs is probably always a good thing if it's well implemented.

Yeah, but the problem is choice (when it concerns sexual identity and behaviour) is very seldom well implemented..

I wouldn't be opposed to the inclusion of a transgendered category, but thinking about Bioware's possible implementations makes me cringe!

I think the only times BioWare implementations of that sort of thing bother me are when people are in-your-face about stuff, and to be honest it bothers me when anyone's like that in a game, it's just not what I'm there for and it feels sleazy and unpleasant to me.

I sometimes worry about moral standpoints being hammered home so relentlessly that it's no longer an enjoyable experience, because nobody intelligent wants to be morally formed by an RPG, right? On the whole though, I think BioWare games avoid this, as if the writers/developers recognise that different people have different sensibilities and they're mostly in the business of making a great game, rather than a manifesto.

I think BioWare games mostly get on with being games and leave you alone with stuff like that. I could be projecting that onto their games, and reading things into their output.

One thing the DA2 experience has taught me is to be careful of doing that because there are lots of people wandering about with false/assumption-based notions of what the designers/writers/developers think and do, which are pretty much taken to task when said designers/writers/developers post.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 10 octobre 2011 - 08:59 .

[Myusha]

Meh. One offensive cutscene I can laugh at isn't going to deter the experience. Life is life, and Video Games are unrealistic if there are no fragments of the common biases and arguments or awakardness about certain groups in a game. For example Mages in Dragon Age. No tension there, meant no Third Act....

[Although perhaps some people would've preferred it that way. XDDDD]

[Firky]

Well, you could make it subtle. (Not that I necessarily think it should be hidden or anything. I seriously don't see why a transgender Hawke shouldn't stand next to male and female on the selection screen.)

But, I think that Other was hidden in Ultima III. I think you had to know to type O, and most people would just choose M and F. Or maybe it did prompt for M, F and O, but three letters are just three letters.

Roleplaying yourself as "other" in a game like Ultima III, which relied almost totally on imagination, and trying to figure out some way to create a non boxed in, female, male character in a fully cinematic modern game, though, are worlds apart, surely. Logistically, like I guess you could probably customise whether you wanted male/female body to go with male/female voice - for a simplistic start. But would that screw up lip synching? I have no idea. And, if you wanted a less defined male/female body shape, wouldn't that screw with armour/clipping etc?

I can't really see how actually making a transgender protagonist would work. But just because I can't imagine it doesn't mean it's not possible or shouldn't be a future aspiration. It does work really well in the 3 or 4 much less cinematic style games I can think of, for sure. Not that it's really comparable, but Sims 3 character customisation has quite a bit of choice you can mess around with for body, hair, voice tone etc. Unmodded.

Modifié par Firky, 10 octobre 2011 - 09:11 .

[ademska]

Myusha wrote...

Meh. One offensive cutscene I can laugh at isn't going to deter the experience. Life is life, and Video Games are unrealistic if there are no fragments of the common biases and arguments or awakardness about certain groups in a game. For example Mages in Dragon Age. No tension there, meant no Third Act....

please read the following response with the understanding that i am not referring to mary kirby's work in mark of the assassin. this is a response to the general sentiment that realism in games somehow presupposes real-world biases.

by 'realism', i assume you mean narrative and emotional impact. to some extent, you are correct. mages and elves in dragon age are meant to represent and showcase marginalization and oppression. with elves in particular, it is analogous to real world issues of racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia - the list goes on.

however, of all the social injustices in thedas that have been major plot points, from casteless dwarves to outcast elves to tranquil mages, you will notice that none of these exists in the real world.

this is because, to create an experience that can be simultaneously enjoyed by all and still have emotional impact that resonates with us, and to remind us of our own world and allow us to empathize with fictional fantasy people, authors since the dawn of fantasy/scifi literature have created parallels. by using creations that don't exist in our world, we can all share an experience driven by tensions we recognize from the real world.

no one gets hurt. no one feels excluded.

you will also notice that racism, sexism, and homophobia as we know them are virtually nonexistent in thedas. bioware recognizes that their product, their art, is popular with more than just straight white men. they have done their best to provide an experience that allows inclusion for all but is still top-quality.

insisting that trans* issues can be included because biases and tensions make for good plot ignores that no other group has been subject to that treatment. if someone sensitive to race issues plays the game and sees an overt act of white-on-black/brown racism, in a game where no other type of real-world -ism exists to significant degree, they are going to feel alienated and hurt.

do you understand what i'm saying? i hope so, cos it's bedtime

Modifié par ademska, 10 octobre 2011 - 10:08 .

[Jussylein]

In The German Version have The Woman The Voice from German Charakters Merethary Dalish Clan

[Morroian]

Carfax wrote...

Now it's only a matter of time before "transgendered" becomes a choice like male and female on the character generation screen.

They can stew in it and rot for all I care though, because Bioware is no longer top dog in the RPG genre. 

So you complain about Bioware not making good rpgs any more but you don't want options which would actually lead to more choice in their rpgs. There's an inconsistency there.

[MsKehoe]

Okay, so reading through the responses, I'm going to presume that some of you are just not going to change your minds on the subject. Possibly, because you live privileged lives where you will never know what it feels like to be born in the wrong body and considered unhuman in society. Good for you. I would kill for that, but I can't.

Whether you're white, straight, cis, Christian, rich, or whatever privileged identity you hold, I doubt you'll be able to completely understand why these things are an issue. I wish I could put you in my shoes, so you can see where I'm coming from. However, I doubt you'd like that very much let alone be able to deal with what I have to deal with on a daily basis.

For those who do understand and have sympathized, thank you.

For people telling me to toughen up and harden my heart, trust me, it is hardened. Queer people have to toughen up in order to face the overwhelming heteronormative culture we will in. You think I didn't know I was going to get ignorant responses? I did know. I put my tough skin on and I posted any ways, because I had a problem with something and I wanted to address it. And look, I got a response from a writer and discussion going on. I think that counts as a win.

For people complaining about censorship in a video game privately owned by a company, I suggest you turn your censorship fight towards the news media. Now that is true censorship. This is me just wanting some positive representation.

That's all for now.

[slimgrin]

Treasure Woman wrote...

Hmmm. I didn't see anything offensive about the video. I thought they were acting that way because he brought a prostitute with him to the Orlesian party. Ah well. :S

Take your common sense out of this thread...

[Yrkoon]

(edit)  Oops.   I missed someone's point big time.  Sorry about that.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 10 octobre 2011 - 02:54 .

[Gotholhorakh]

MsKehoe wrote...

Okay, so reading through the responses, I'm going to presume that some of you are just not going to change your minds on the subject. Possibly, because you live privileged lives where you will never know what it feels like to be born in the wrong body and considered unhuman in society. Good for you. I would kill for that, but I can't.

*snip*

I wish I could put you in my shoes, so you can see where I'm coming from. However, I doubt you'd like that very much let alone be able to deal with what I have to deal with on a daily basis.

For those who do understand and have sympathized, thank you.

For people telling me to toughen up and harden my heart, trust me, it is hardened. Queer people have to toughen up in order to face the overwhelming heteronormative culture we will in. You think I didn't know I was going to get ignorant responses? I did know. I put my tough skin on and I posted any ways, because I had a problem with something and I wanted to address it. And look, I got a response from a writer and discussion going on. I think that counts as a win.

For people complaining about censorship in a video game privately owned by a company, I suggest you turn your censorship fight towards the news media. Now that is true censorship. This is me just wanting some positive representation.

That's all for now.

Yeah, I have compassion, and some level of understanding from my own experience, but...

Whether you're white, straight, cis, Christian, rich, or whatever
privileged identity you hold

Which of these things is the most reprehensible to be, in your opinion? Just so people know which thing to feel guiltiest for, out of all of the things they were born or have chosen to be.

There is no reason to go down that road, and certainly no reason to make assumptions about what level of understanding people can have of anything because they have some form of "identity", trannies (term used intentionally, I refuse to change language I have used all my life to please milk-moustached 23 year olds who know nothing about life, GID or anything else) have senses of "identity" about some things too, even if it isn't gender.

PS: I don't think Christians are in a "privileged" position, they are social lepers and picked on/attacked by just about everyone without any kind of social or intellectual decency, if they momentarily fail to keep what they love/believe in a secret. Ironically, this is done because of hateful right wing lunatics in the USA with whom they have no association whatsoever.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 10 octobre 2011 - 03:17 .

[MsKehoe]

Whether you're white, straight, cis, Christian, rich, or whatever
privileged identity you hold

Which of these things is the most reprehensible to be, in your opinion? Just so people know which thing to feel guiltiest for, out of all of the things they were born or have chosen to be.

There is no reason to go down that road, and certainly no reason to make assumptions about what level of understanding people can have of anything because they have some form of "identity", trannies (term used intentionally, I refuse to change language I have used all my life to please milk-moustached 23 year olds who know nothing about life, GID or anything else) have senses of "identity" about some things too, even if it isn't gender.

PS: I don't think Christians are in a "privileged" position, they are social lepers and picked on/attacked by just about everyone without any kind of social or intellectual decency, if they momentarily fail to keep what they love/believe in a secret. Ironically, this is done because of hateful right wing lunatics in the USA with whom they have no association whatsoever.

First off, trannies is a derogatory term and I would appreciate it if you did not use it from now on regardless of what you are used to. If you are going to address me with that term, I'm not going to discuss anything with you.

Modifié par MsKehoe, 10 octobre 2011 - 03:07 .

[Gotholhorakh]

MsKehoe wrote...
First off, trannies is a derogatory term and I would appreciate it if you did not use it from now on regardless of what you are used to. If you are going to address me with that term, I'm not going to discuss anything with you.

Feel free not to, then. If you refuse to have conversation with people whose mouths you cannot control, you will be in some very lonely and poor quality conversation throughout your life.

Imagine if I demanded you use words and language that are appropriate for the culture where I come from, the way I discuss these things with people in my community, my lifetime of experience around many things including this issue because I would appreciate it if you watched your mouth to my liking.

How utterly preposterous. Good luck to you.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 10 octobre 2011 - 03:13 .

[MsKehoe]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

MsKehoe wrote...
First off, trannies is a derogatory term and I would appreciate it if you did not use it from now on regardless of what you are used to. If you are going to address me with that term, I'm not going to discuss anything with you.

Feel free not to, then. If you refuse to have conversation with people whose mouths you cannot control, you will be in some very lonely and poor quality conversation throughout your life.

Imagine if I demanded you use words and language that are appropriate for the culture where I come from, the way I discuss these things with people in my community, my lifetime of experience around many things including this issue because I would appreciate it if you watched your mouth to my liking.

How utterly preposterous. Good luck to you.

Imagine people casually using the n word toward black people, the f word towards queers, the b word towards women--if you're going to do nothing, but insult me than yeah, I'm going to friggin' ignore you. Good luck to you.

FYI I have plenty of intelligent and well-thought out conversations with people who don't feel the need to resort to calling me names. Who would have thought!