497 réponses à ce sujet

[Yrkoon]

MsKehoe wrote...

Imagine people casually using the n word toward black people, the f word towards queers, the b word towards women--if you're going to do nothing, but insult me than yeah, I'm going to friggin' ignore you. Good luck to you.

FYI I have plenty of intelligent and well-thought out conversations with people who don't feel the need to resort to calling me names. Who would have thought!

Jeez.  is  Attack-mode really necessary here?  As someone who isn't transgendered, and, like you say,  obviously unfamiliar with the life experiences of one, I personally  did not know, until about 5 minutes ago, that "tranny" is an offensive word.  Simply tell me that is, and You'll never hear me say it again.  Promise.  No need to chew us out.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 10 octobre 2011 - 03:29 .

[Gotholhorakh]

MsKehoe wrote...
Imagine people casually using the n word toward black people, the f word towards queers, the b word towards women--if you're going to do nothing, but insult me than yeah, I'm going to friggin' ignore you. Good luck to you.

FYI I have plenty of intelligent and well-thought out conversations with people who don't feel the need to resort to calling me names. Who would have thought!

Meh, you are choosing to infer an insult out of it, you are choosing to take offense. I meant no offense.

Parallels drawn with racism/homophobia aside (quelle suprise), you choosing to take offense at me using a term which has been and IS CURRENTLY the norm where I live for my whole adult life is not the same as "me calling you names".

It's "You saying I'm calling you names". Seriously, I'm sorry if I offended you, but I'm not sorry that someone in another country has rebranded a word I have used for decades as offensive in their country and they think they can control my mouth.

Why would I care about that? What if I tell you I have rebranded the word black as offensive? Are you legitimately a racist now? No, you aren't, for goodness' sake.

Now seriously, I feel awful, I don't want to have this argument with you, I don't want to press home and be horrid, so I won't, but FFS I'm not going to happily have a "prejudiced" badge slapped on me because the language for X is different in whatever place you are from. That's hugely unfair.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 10 octobre 2011 - 03:32 .

[MsKehoe]

Yrkoon wrote...

MsKehoe wrote...

Imagine people casually using the n word toward black people, the f word towards queers, the b word towards women--if you're going to do nothing, but insult me than yeah, I'm going to friggin' ignore you. Good luck to you.

FYI I have plenty of intelligent and well-thought out conversations with people who don't feel the need to resort to calling me names. Who would have thought!

Jeez.  is  Attack-mode really necessary here?  As someone who isn't transgendered, and, like you say,  obviously unfamiliar with your live experiences, I personally  did not know, until about 5 minutes ago, that "tranny" is an offensive word.  Simply tell me that is , and You'll never hear me say it again.  No need to put everyone  on your ignore list.

It wasn't directed at you. Just at anyone who knows it is a bad word and continues to use it such as that person I was talking to you. If you didn't know, learned, and acknowledge you shouldn't use it again, then good for you.

PresidentCowboy wrote...

MsKehoe wrote...

Imagine people casually using the n word toward black people, the f word towards queers, the b word towards women--if you're going to do nothing, but insult me than yeah, I'm going to friggin' ignore you. Good luck to you.

I'm a queer but the f word doesn't offend me at all. People use it casually around me sometimes and I'm just like... [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/sleeping.png[/smilie]

It might not offend you personally, but there are many who are offended and verbally and physically attacked.

[MsKehoe]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

MsKehoe wrote...
Imagine people casually using the n word toward black people, the f word towards queers, the b word towards women--if you're going to do nothing, but insult me than yeah, I'm going to friggin' ignore you. Good luck to you.

FYI I have plenty of intelligent and well-thought out conversations with people who don't feel the need to resort to calling me names. Who would have thought!

Meh, you are choosing to infer an insult out of it, you are choosing to take offense. I meant no offense.

Subtle hints at my doubtless racism/homophobia aside (quelle suprise), you choosing to take offense at me using a term which has been and IS CURRENTLY the norm where I live for my whole adult life is not the same as "me calling you names".

It's "You saying I'm calling you names". Seriously, I'm sorry if I offended you, but I'm not sorry that someone in another country has rebranded a word I have used for decades as offensive in their country and they think they can control my mouth.

Why would I care about that? What if I tell you I have rebranded the word black as offensive? Are you legitimately a racist now? No, you aren't, for goodness' sake.

I do not choose to be offended. I do not go out of my way to find offense in whatever people are doing. It just happens. You know that it is the wrong word to use yet you used it any way. It might be the norm where you are from, but you have to take responsibility for your actions and what they may mean for someone else. I don't know the full story of who you are or where you're from. I just have that one word to go on. How else was I supposed to react? With smiles and happiness, because you just used a derogatory term at me? No.  

If you are black and wish people to not say that word than you have every right to express that. 

[Gotholhorakh]

On a serious level, I'm genuinely sorry if I caused you offense

The whole "being told what you can/can't say" thing is an entirely separate issue and something I'm apt to militate against, and I'm sorry if that came across as hostile, because that's the last thing I am.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 10 octobre 2011 - 03:55 .

[naledgeborn]

PresidentCowboy wrote...

I'm a queer but the f word doesn't offend me at all. People use it casually around me sometimes and I'm just like...

Someone with a brain. If I were to call Revs Jesse and Al everytime I heard the word n***** come from a white person I'd be banned by the phone companies.

[FASherman]

If the attitudes portrayed in a computer game are causing a level of emotion pain to a real flesh and blood person, I'm not going to defend how the game portrays any segment of people. At the same time. I'm not sure the complaints of one person is going to change them either.

I have to good answer to the OP other than to suggest they avoid DA in the future and perhaps all Bioware. I don't say that in the vein of "Hey, if you're offended, don't play it!" but rather wondering why you would expose yourself to something you find so hurtful.

I understand the escapism aspect, albeit for a different reason as I suffer from an autistic disorder called Aspergers Syndrome. Maybe you should feel your escape through different titles.

Good luck. I hope you find the peace and acceptance you're searching for.

As for those attacking someone who is clearly in pain, what is wrong with you? If you can't make it better, at least don't make it worse.

Modifié par FASherman, 10 octobre 2011 - 03:54 .

[MingWolf]

Some words are objectively hurtful or insulting to those receiving it because of certain stigmas that become attached to it, and as human beings, there should be no reason why we can't be a little more polite or at least treat our fellows with equal respect if we understand what message we are trying to communicate and what such messages would do. I'm sure we are all guilty of this at some point in our lives.

Modifié par MingWolf, 10 octobre 2011 - 04:02 .

[Gotholhorakh]

FASherman wrote...

If the attitudes portrayed in a computer game are causing a level of emotion pain to a real flesh and blood person, I'm not going to defend how the game portrays any segment of people. At the same time. I'm not sure the complaints of one person is going to change them either.

I have to good answer to the OP other than to suggest they avoid DA in the future and perhaps all Bioware. I don't say that in the vein of "Hey, if you're offended, don't play it!" but rather wondering why you would expose yourself to something you find so hurtful.

I understand the escapism aspect, albeit for a different reason as I suffer from an autistic disorder called Aspergers Syndrome. Maybe you should feel your escape through different titles.

You're not alone - so many of us as RPG fans are somewhere on the autistic spectrum, diagnosed or not, I think that RPG games, in conjunction with the interwebz, have provided a way of cementing communication and common interest for so many people - I think it might be a big part of what has people so fiercely invested in the genre and its survival.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 10 octobre 2011 - 04:05 .

[Kidd]

Now that we know this only seems offensive because of an error making the script and wasn't intentional, is it possible we could see a patch? There are issues with Legacy, I'm told (not run into any myself), so we could have some new patch that patches up our DLCs or something. Of course this would require rewriting this scene... I don't know how much work that would be. Is it a lot? Is it possible? I'd love for it to be possible and not just have the scene cut if it's changed. I enjoy seeing transpeople on screen, especially when they're not made fun of because of their gender - which this scene will sadly erroneously make fun of for a lot of players.

I don't mostly want a patch just for us right here, right now though. We in this thread have read the explanation and all is fine or at the very least it will be when given time to calm down. But lots and lots of people will be playing this and be unaware of Mary's explanation (and much mature and professional apology! many many kudos!). I believe it is in both the interest of their experiences as well as the LGBT-friendly image BioWare seems to be wanting to portray themselves with that we receive such patch.

So... patchy patchy? ^^

PresidentCowboy wrote...

I'm a queer but the f word doesn't offend me at all. People use it casually around me sometimes and I'm just like...

Well that's great and all. Not being sarcastic, that's great! But it's kinda disrespectful to walk up to a black person and use the n-word when you don't know how they feel about it, no? ^^;

FASherman wrote...

I understand the escapism aspect, albeit for a different reason as I suffer from an autistic disorder called Aspergers Syndrome. Maybe you should feel your escape through different titles.

High aspie five! =D

[Lux]

BioWare has been quite generous in matters of sexual preference. This is a good thing and I don't see other developers offering egalitarian romance options. The feedback from this thread will surely allow BW to improve this uncommon gameplay option.

It's interesting to note that there has been a proactive approach from the writers of this game to confront the mainstream view of sexuality.

As a straight guy, I was shocked when a male companion was interested in my manly Hawke and didn't like my refusal (my reaction: "ewww!" and "wtf?"), or when the joke was on me when I heard Serendipity talk for the first time after a sexual act had implicitly occurred (my reaction: aaahhhh!!! reload!! reload!!!!).

To me this comes as a way to make people think about their established conventions and maybe allow for a better acceptance of other sexual preferences.

In my heterosexual viewpoint, that scene in MoA with Serendipity could be another awkwardly funny way to challenge conventions. Maybe that was one of the reasons, but it ended up being insulting to that group of people.

I think that BioWare shouldn't be poking the anthill more than it needs. The options are there and they're already amazingly awesome to simply exist; let people choose what they want without throwing sexual preferences to people's faces and/or use that as a punch line. You'll never know who you'll end up offending.

[Carfax]

Morroian wrote...

Carfax wrote...

Now it's only a matter of time before "transgendered" becomes a choice like male and female on the character generation screen.

They can stew in it and rot for all I care though, because Bioware is no longer top dog in the RPG genre. 

So you complain about Bioware not making good rpgs any more but you don't want options which would actually lead to more choice in their rpgs. There's an inconsistency there.

I suggest you read my post again more carefully.  At no point did I state that I did not want to see transgendered become a character generation option..  To me it doesn't matter.

I was basically highlighting the fact that because of Bioware's pandering to sexual minorities over the years, they will inevitably end up having to add transgenders to the list as well at some point, because it's obvious they've been intentionally disregarding them.

[Volourn]

Nothing wrong with thats cene. So, it was a fun, light hearted scene. Nobody has an issue with heterosexuals being amde fun of but people with other perferences are fof limits? Give me a break. Isabella, a bisexual gal, is made the butt of a multitude of jokes with sexual diseases. Where's the crying there? Your sister, a presumably hetereosexual female is made fun of for being a 'virgin'.

Big deal. BIO did nothing wrong here.

[Matt125]

Volourn wrote...

Nothing wrong with thats cene. So, it was a fun, light hearted scene. Nobody has an issue with heterosexuals being amde fun of but people with other perferences are fof limits? Give me a break. Isabella, a bisexual gal, is made the butt of a multitude of jokes with sexual diseases. Where's the crying there? Your sister, a presumably hetereosexual female is made fun of for being a 'virgin'.

Big deal. BIO did nothing wrong here.

Not often I agree with you these days Volourn, but I think you've got a point here. People really need a thicker skin. Also, I wish people wouldn't make such a big deal about romance and sex in games. I play Bioware games for the story, and I tend to find characters interesting not for their bodily attributes but for their personalities. One of the best Bioware characters was HK-47 and thankfully Bioware didn't make him straight/gay/bi or transgendered.

[ademska]

Volourn wrote...

Nothing wrong with thats cene to me. So, it was a fun, light hearted scene to me. Nobody has an issue with heterosexuals being amde fun of but people with other perferences are fof limits? Give me a break. Isabella, a bisexual gal, is made the butt of a multitude of jokes with sexual diseases. Where's the crying there? Your sister, a presumably hetereosexual female is made fun of for being a 'virgin'.

Big deal to me. In my opinion, BIO did nothing wrong here.

fixed it for you.

people have differing opinions. obviously, since a boatload of people thought it was offensive.

also, isabela is a nuanced character and she's never treated with any significant amount of ridicule for her promiscuity or bisexuality. she's not the butt of anymore jokes than any other main companion in the game. on bsn, when people do jerkishly dress her down for contracting (and responsibly treating) an STI or being sexually active, there are always a ton of defenders.

and cisgendered heterosexuals don't tend to complain about being made fun of for their sexual orientation and gender identity because nobody does it. they're not only the vast majority, they legally have way way way more rights than LGBT.

a heterosexual was made fun of for being a virgin? that's never cool, don't get me wrong, but it's nothing compared to the struggles of LGBT folk. she can still get legally married, visit her husband in the hospital, file joint taxes, see herself represented in every media ever, walk down the street hand-in-hand or kiss her lover without fear of being attacked, not be fired from her job for who she is and who she likes, the list goes on. if you are straight and cisgendered, you have no idea what we all go through on a daily basis.

and that's fine. we don't expect you to.

all we expect, all we hope for, is that you don't impose your own, more privileged opinions on us.

Modifié par ademska, 10 octobre 2011 - 07:32 .

[Mr.House]

The scene was very bad, but the most important thing was Marys post. She could have made excuses, defend her self but she did not. Hopefully Bioware if they do scenes like this in the future it's done well and tasteful.

Modifié par Mr.House, 10 octobre 2011 - 07:32 .

[oldmansavage]

So tranny is an off limits word also?  Wonder how many more fetishes we'll have to tip toe around in the coming years. 

[Volourn]

"people have differing opinions. obviously, since a boatload of people thought it was offensive.

also, isabela is a nuanced character and she's never treated with any significant amount of ridicule for her promiscuity or bisexuality. she's not the butt of anymore jokes than any other main companion in the game. on bsn, when people do jerkishly dress her down for contracting (and responsibly treating) an STI or being sexually active, there are always a ton of defenders.

and cisgendered heterosexuals don't tend to complain about being made fun of for their sexual orientation and gender identity because nobody does it. they're not only the vast majority, they legally have way way way more rights than LGBT.

a heterosexual was made fun of for being a virgin? that's never cool, don't get me wrong, but it's nothing compared to the struggles of LGBT folk. she can still get legally married, visit her husband in the hospital, file joint taxes, see herself represented in every media ever, walk down the street hand-in-hand or kiss her lover without fear of being attacked, not be fired from her job for who she is and who she likes, the list goes on. if you are straight and cisgendered, you have no idea what we all go through on a daily basis."

So.. youa re one of THOSE people. No, not transgenders whom I have no issue with (though I never met one so *shrug*). But, youa r eone of those dramatic people who think only your pain matters that nobody else can suffer liek you, nobody can understand. I mean hetersexuals never get teased over theirs exuality, blah. They're one of the majority so their pain doesn't count and it's okay to make fun of them but the poor minorities are cripples and need to be babied.

I prefer to treat everyone including minorities the same - as grown adults who can take care of themselves and aren't emotionally fragile.


"also, isabela is a nuanced character and she's never treated with any significant amount of ridicule for her promiscuity or bisexuality
"

You kiddin'. She's amde fun a lot 9and over the top way) all the time. the key here is that isabella as a character doesn't actually care what others think. She's not fragile and can take the ribbing.

Heterosexual. Homosexual. Transexual. Etc. Etc. Doesn't matter to me. Nothing wrong with some teasing (though there *are* limits obviously in RL).

The fact you feel it's perfectly acceptable to harass and tease the majority simply because they are the majority is a selfish and evil view. Isn't the pint of cry for transexuals and other minorities is that theya r ehuman yet are often treated like they're not yet you have no problem treating feeling that it is okay to treat hetersexuals poorly just because?

It's the same issue where racism is perfectly acceptable in modern society.. against white people.

I loath prejudice of all types. It's wrong to abuse those different than you. It is also wrong to make it sound like youa re the only victim. ANYONE can be a victim. Being heterosexual doens't make you immune.

[ademska]

uh, hey, buddy?

ademska said...

a heterosexual was made fun of for being a virgin? that's never cool, don't get me wrong,

[Volourn]

Why not quote the rest of it? All that is a throw away line that isn't menainghful siunce the writer goes on to say but 'i have it so much worse' basically poopooing someone else's feelings. That's typically bully and selfish behaviour.

Do you know who has it worse than transgenders who live in NA or Europe? North koreans so would it be okay for a NK to poo poo your troubles? No, of course.

Here's a newflash: Almost everyone veryone you will meet will either be part of a minority or a put upon group. You aren't special, and neither am I. You don't feel pain differently than others. We are all human and suffer, survive, and enjoy life in basically the same way even if we are doing things differently.

Don't let the fact that you were bullied give you carte blanche to bully others. That's the excuse of many a bully. Treat others the way you wish to be tread. This thread is about being upset with BIO because it was pereieved that BIO wa smocking transgenders and the plight.. yet.. in this very thread transgenders are mocking the plight of others? Is that NOT a double standard? I say, yes, it really is.

It is disgusting to degrade and bully someone because they are transgendered. It's also equally disgusting to degrade and bully someone because they are not. And, poopooing smoene's feelings by claiming that you 'have it worse' is exactly that.

[PinkShoes]

When i saw that i thought it was just Serendipity as a person being ****ty, i didnt think thats how that whole group of people acted.

But i can understand the offence and im glad you got an aplogy.

[Bmeszaros]

If a video game offends you, perhaps thats a game you stop playing. The greatest power you have as a consumer is deciding what you spend your money on.

[ademska]

Volourn wrote...

Why not quote the rest of it? All that is a throw away line that isn't menainghful siunce the writer goes on to say but 'i have it so much worse' basically poopooing someone else's feelings. That's typically bully and selfish behaviour.

Do you know who has it worse than transgenders who live in NA or Europe? North koreans so would it be okay for a NK to poo poo your troubles? No, of course.

Here's a newflash: Almost everyone veryone you will meet will either be part of a minority or a put upon group. You aren't special, and neither am I. You don't feel pain differently than others. We are all human and suffer, survive, and enjoy life in basically the same way even if we are doing things differently.

Don't let the fact that you were bullied give you carte blanche to bully others. That's the excuse of many a bully. Treat others the way you wish to be tread. This thread is about being upset with BIO because it was pereieved that BIO wa smocking transgenders and the plight.. yet.. in this very thread transgenders are mocking the plight of others? Is that NOT a double standard? I say, yes, it really is.

It is disgusting to degrade and bully someone because they are transgendered. It's also equally disgusting to degrade and bully someone because they are not. And, poopooing smoene's feelings by claiming that you 'have it worse' is exactly that.

i didn't quote the rest because in no way did i bully anybody. i stated very politely that, in the matter of LGBT issues, if you are a cisgendered heterosexual person, you cannot understand LGBT oppression. i said nothing disparaging toward you or anyone else.

no trans* or trans* sympathetic person has mocked anyone else for being who they are. all we have stated is our own offense at the clip before it was given context and that cisgendered people cannot understand trans* oppression and marginalization. this doesn't make trans* people better than cisgendered people in any way, and no one ever implied as such. it's fine not to understand. i am a ciswoman, and i can only by sympathetic to trans* issues - i cannot ever fully understand the hurt trans* people face every day. i am also white, and i cannot understand POC racial oppression/marginalization.  i am, however, gay, so i can understand heterosexist stuff. it's just an objective fact of argument.

if you felt in any way that that was a mocking statement, then i don't know what to say.

Modifié par ademska, 10 octobre 2011 - 09:44 .