497 réponses à ce sujet

[Saber Wolf]

TeenZombie wrote...

On one hand, after seeing the youtube clip, my first thought was that it wasn't *that* bad...Tallis and Hawke are uncomfortable, but as a joke, it's very mild. Maybe it's a sad thing, though, that I've seen so many horrendous jokes about transsexuals in the media, that this seems relatively harmless.

On the other hand, as mentioned already, there are almost NO positive portrayals of trans individuals in television, movies, and video games. Bioware has already taken a big step with the inclusion and normalization of homosexuality, so I think this would be an issue that could have been handled with more sensitivity, if at all.

This.

It's nothing surprising actually. And doesn't Hawke have a choice to show how he feels? The player chose the 'sarcastic dialog option' and that ended like that. What had Hawke said if the player had chosen the 'diplomatic' one? I'm sure he says something much better (I hope).

[alex90c]

I've gotta admit, that video is pretty weak.

Then again, I'm mixed race, Jacob was the token black guy in ME2 and he was nearly the worst character in the game (and is the butt of an awful lot of priiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiize jokes) so I suppose you could say it makes black people look bad, but I don't really care, lol.

Oh, and per usual Hawke is a ******.

Modifié par alex90c, 09 octobre 2011 - 06:44 .

[Xewaka]

masterthief wrote...
Here's one.

Must be because I'm an insensitive straight white male who watched Venture Brothers, but I fail to see the problem in a Dr. Girlfriend gag.

Modifié par Xewaka, 09 octobre 2011 - 06:46 .

[syllogi]

LordKinoda wrote...

I can see why you are offended. That is not the issue. Always making light of your lifestyle in same fashion has to be extremely annoying to you I'm sure. By the same token, shouldn't you have hardened yourself for this by now ? Or are you just a teenager ? You have to know that your choice isn't a popular one in the eyes of many, so wouldn't you accept that there are just some thick headed people out there and move on ?

That's what I do whenever I'm offended by a certain subject. I'll voice my opposition, and then move on, because you can't change people's minds over such a controversial issue easily. Look how far LGBT has come since the 90's. Look how far racism has been nearly eradicated since the 60's. It is only a matter of time.

You still won't change my mind that you don't have the right to NOT be offended though.

Gender dysphoria is not a choice.  It's not a "lifestyle."  It is not about simply being offended about a joke that was in poor taste, it's about the complete lack of representation in the media, if the representation is not negative.

Would you feel great if all men in movies, tv, and video games were portrayed as rapists, thieves, murderers, and psychopaths?  That sounds pretty ridiculous, stereotyping an entire group of people like that, right?  So why should trans people continue to be silent when their own representation has always been as the butt of jokes?

[MG800]

Ah yes, hysteria and jerkfest.
First, it's very mild. But it's true, there's negative picture or lack of thereof in media, and creating situations like this should be avoided. But, If I saw hawt woman, and she spoke to me with a deep, sexy, and very manly voice, I would be surprised too. The problem arises, when there's only this "comic relief" and no examples of "ok" or at least "weird, but whatevs".

[LordKinoda]

masterthief, he said racism's 'nearly been eradicated'. time to hit that mental ignore button.

Heh, well I'm speaking as an American. Sure there are plenty of other examples of extreme racism today throughout the world and still in the US. But not nearly as many as there was 40 years ago. I'll hit my own mental ignore button if you want to dispute that. It's made tons of progress at being beaten back.

[ademska]

hawke may have a choice to choose how he feels, but the poster of that video itself encountered it by picking the sarcastic option because her hawke is very sarcastic. she had no way of knowing he would react accordingly. and when she got that reaction, it hurt.

to use an analogy that perhaps people are more sympathetic to: it's like if, by picking the aggro option in a conversation, hawke made a joke about rape. the person playing could have picked another option, but they didn't, and now they're suddenly confronted with jokes about rape. what if the gamer is sensitive to that subject? bioware, then, has just unnecessarily included a scene that seriously hurt people.

there is no reason for this scene with bran to be in the game. it contributes nothing, except a joke at the expense of a whole group of gamers who are by and large treated as jokes in real life, too. why is anyone defending this? you don't have to jump on the wagon and get mad at bioware yourself, but you certainly have no reason to defend their actions here.

the bottom line is that bioware has a record of being inclusive and sympathetic toward gay people, and we're certainly in the minority. i can play dragon age and for once in my life feel completely safe from being the butt of someone's joke because of who i am.

why should trans* folk not be afforded that same luxury?

[LordKinoda]

Gender dysphoria is not a choice. It's not a "lifestyle." It is not about simply being offended about a joke that was in poor taste, it's about the complete lack of representation in the media, if the representation is not negative.

Excuse me for mistyping a particular word in the sentence. Again I see the side of it. Are you people just not reading my whole posts ? Probably just snipping out the bits you want and ignoring the rest.

Would you feel great if all men in movies, tv, and video games were portrayed as rapists, thieves, murderers, and psychopaths? That sounds pretty ridiculous, stereotyping an entire group of people like that, right? So why should trans people continue to be silent when their own representation has always been as the butt of jokes?

AGAIN. AGAIN. AGAIN. Maybe you will actually read it this time. Never said I agreed with BW's or the media's depiction of transgender people. Just that I'm not going to censor them if they want to poke fun. Is it in poor taste way more often than not ? Definitely. Still won't change my mind about censorship though.

[esper]

@MsSKehoe.
It could seriously be much, much worse. Sure it would be a really nice step foreward if we had a non-comical transexual party members of some kind some time - that would be a real step foreward and interesting, but as it is now the ridicule is not so bad as the stereo typical presentation Warren and Herren in da:o.
If bioware meant to riducule transexual they would have placed the person in riducules Tarohne-like make up or such or made the person fail to dress up as the opposite gender.
As seen from the scene that is a transexuel in a good set up. I couldn't see that she biological was a he before the person in question spoke.
As for Tallis being uncomfortable. Are you sure that it is because it was a biological he dressing up as a female that made Tallis uncomfortable? or was it the fact that she had 'mistaken' the gender. I think it was the latter, but if it wast he former remember that Tallis might be pro-qunari which I imagine are not very free with that sort of sexuality. (I think that for qunari sex = reproduction).

I don't think the joke is 'omg how gross' from bioware side as some about mentioned, but rather to create an emberissing situation. The one who ended up looking stupid in that joke were Tallis and Hawke not the transexual

You sound a lot like a friend I once had, she ended in a depression as well, and I still constantly fear for her life even if I have lost contact.She would have love studing art and litterature as well... sighs...

I guess what I am trying to say is: Don't be down. Judging from the responese a lot of people support you and you can see that you are not alone. If anyone ever are going to make a proper presentation of a transsexual it is bioware.

edit. For the record I still think that the joke is poor taste.

Modifié par esper, 09 octobre 2011 - 06:59 .

[ademska]

MG800 wrote...

Ah yes, hysteria and jerkfest.
First, it's very mild. But it's true, there's negative picture or lack of thereof in media, and creating situations like this should be avoided. But, If I saw hawt woman, and she spoke to me with a deep, sexy, and very manly voice, I would be surprised too. The problem arises, when there's only this "comic relief" and no examples of "ok" or at least "weird, but whatevs".

and since that is the case in dragon age, we agree there is a problem?

so, then, why call it 'hysteria and jerkfest'?

[Brockololly]

Dear god that video is cringe inducing. More 13 year old humor for the masses. "HERP DERP, THAT ELF LOOKS LIKE A LADY BUT TALKS LIKE BARRY WHITE!"

That said, I don't know that BioWare needs to make social statements with every single thing they do, but its just a repeated joke that wasn't very funny in the first place. Just as much as having stereotypically flamboyant gay characters like Wade/Herren or Jethen. It would be nice if they're going to have characters of varying sexualities that they have that aspect simply be one part of them and not the main hook- like Arcade Gannon or Veronica in New Vegas.

[Anyroad2]

I can understand why you're offended OP.

However... I watched the clip, and I figured that Hawke and Tallis could just be uncomfortable because Brann seems to have taken a known prostitute to a pretty high class event. It is a possibility. No one but the writers know what their intent was.

Did it need to be Serendipity? Maybe and maybe not. I'm sure people recognize this particular prostitute moreso than anyone else in the Blooming Rose. The only other prostitute that I may recognize off the top of my head would be that male elf who you talk to when looking for that guys wife.

Modifié par Anyroad2, 09 octobre 2011 - 06:56 .

[upsettingshorts]

You guys are focusing on the wrong target. LordKinoda's absolute stance against censorship is perfectly reasonable. To many, political issues take precedence over social issues because the former can help facilitate the latter.

This thread is supposed to be directed at BioWare. Arguing over how best to respond to something you all agree is in poor taste clouds the message that the scene is in poor taste. It doesn't also follow that BioWare must actively seek to enhance the public perception of every group, let alone any in particular - but recognizing issues the OP raises and making sure BioWare is sensitive to them is an equally reasonable position.

Furthermore, if I had to guess, they conceived a scene where it was "a prostitute" - hence the lines about social class - and then at some point someone suggested, "what if that prostitute is Serendipity?"  Then everyone in the room laughed and they implemented it without thinking much more about it.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 09 octobre 2011 - 07:05 .

[Maugrim]

As soon as I saw that scene I went "Really Bioware?" I mean I laugh at a lot of inappropriate humor, dead baby jokes and the like but this is getting to be a bit much. Probably the worst part is that it's not particularly funny. Just "Eeek a person not easily classified into simplistic sex/gender roles, isn't this funny HAHAHHA"...

No. Just no Bioware.

[TastesLikeTNT]

LordKinoda wrote...

Never said it was right. Just said you don't have the right to NOT be offended. Plain and simple. I agree that transgender people are treated unfairly and poked fun at a lot. But that's because it's still a minority of the population, and has only recently been made aware to the public at large. It's the same with any other controversial issue. With time comes understanding and acceptance.

You just have to wait. For now, weather the storm. Voice your objections. But don't assume I'm going to help you censor somebody's free speech, no matter how much I disagree with it.

How exactly is the OP doing anything else than voicing objections? How does that constitute "cencoring" free speech? Understanding and acceptance doesn't come by itself, you know. How is anything ever going to change if no one asks for change to happen?

[Xilizhra]

LordKinoda wrote...

It's one thing being made fun of, guy - it's a whole other to be consistently dehumanized and reduced to comedic fodder for "normal" people to have a laugh at rather than being treated as an actual person. You are positively blind with your own privilege if you can't tell the difference.

Never said it was right. Just said you don't have the right to NOT be offended. Plain and simple. I agree that transgender people are treated unfairly and poked fun at a lot. But that's because it's still a minority of the population, and has only recently been made aware to the public at large. It's the same with any other controversial issue. With time comes understanding and acceptance.

You just have to wait. For now, weather the storm. Voice your objections. But don't assume I'm going to help you censor somebody's free speech, no matter how much I disagree with it.

Oh, don't worry. We'll handle the censoring ourselves.

I'd be more angry about this if I was at all surprised. But I applaud the efforts of those less jaded than I am to actually express anger on the topic, and I do hope we can mount a wider opposition to this. Probably not enough to stop it from being released, but enough to make them regret it.

[rabanasty]

LordKinoda wrote...

Heh. EVERYBODY has been ostracized at some point in their lives for any number of things. The music they like, the hobbies they enjoy, and yes their lifestyle choice.

get back to me when being "ostracized" for your taste in music involves your basic civil rights being denied to you and then this will actually be a valid analogy. 

[Wulfram]

Anyroad2 wrote...

Did it need to be Serendipity? Maybe and maybe not. I'm sure people recognize this particular prostitute moreso than anyone else in the Blooming Rose. The only other prostitute that I may recognize off the top of my head would be that male elf who you talk to when looking for that guys wife.

Bran was already established as Serendipity's customer, I believe.

[Xilizhra]

Wulfram wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

Did it need to be Serendipity? Maybe and maybe not. I'm sure people recognize this particular prostitute moreso than anyone else in the Blooming Rose. The only other prostitute that I may recognize off the top of my head would be that male elf who you talk to when looking for that guys wife.

Bran was already established as Serendipity's customer, I believe.

Having it Be Serendipity was imbecilic regardless. In fact, Serendipity's very existence is imbecilic.

[Anyroad2]

Wulfram wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

Did it need to be Serendipity? Maybe and maybe not. I'm sure people recognize this particular prostitute moreso than anyone else in the Blooming Rose. The only other prostitute that I may recognize off the top of my head would be that male elf who you talk to when looking for that guys wife.

Bran was already established as Serendipity's customer, I believe.

Oh is that right? Well, then it did need to be Serendipity to remain constant with what the game already told us about Brann.

[Sutekh]

LordKinoda wrote...

So, by all means, don't buy the game, don't buy the DLC if it offends you so. But don't assume your own lifestyle choice should be immune to scrutiny or comedic relief.

The simple fact you keep using those words proves how far your ignorance goes on the matter. And this is said without any confrontation in mind. Read a bit, inform yourself, then come back with an enlightened opinion. Maybe it will be the same, maybe not, but, at least, you'll sound as though you actually know what you're talking about.

And, Bioware? I'm extremely disappointed, and a bit sad.

[Anyroad2]

Xilizhra wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

Did it need to be Serendipity? Maybe and maybe not. I'm sure people recognize this particular prostitute moreso than anyone else in the Blooming Rose. The only other prostitute that I may recognize off the top of my head would be that male elf who you talk to when looking for that guys wife.

Bran was already established as Serendipity's customer, I believe.

Having it Be Serendipity was imbecilic regardless. In fact, Serendipity's very existence is imbecilic.

Whats wrong with Serendipity being in the game? Is it because of the Trans part or because of the prostitute part or both?

[rabanasty]

LordKinoda wrote...

AGAIN. AGAIN. AGAIN. Maybe you will actually read it this time. Never said I agreed with BW's or the media's depiction of transgender people. Just that I'm not going to censor them if they want to poke fun. Is it in poor taste way more often than not ? Definitely. Still won't change my mind about censorship though.

in any case, no one is "censoring" bioware. the op very eloquently stated, in the hopes of bioware taking note of the issues inherent in the particular scene, all that was problematic with the portrayal, and indeed with bioware's persistently problematic portrayal of trans* characters in their games. it's not censorship to see what's happening and to react to it in the hopes that maybe it will stop happening. 

for what it's worth, i found the op's words incredibly moving and salient, and hopefully someone will listen. 

[Xilizhra]

Anyroad2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

Did it need to be Serendipity? Maybe and maybe not. I'm sure people recognize this particular prostitute moreso than anyone else in the Blooming Rose. The only other prostitute that I may recognize off the top of my head would be that male elf who you talk to when looking for that guys wife.

Bran was already established as Serendipity's customer, I believe.

Having it Be Serendipity was imbecilic regardless. In fact, Serendipity's very existence is imbecilic.

Whats wrong with Serendipity being in the game? Is it because of the Trans part or because of the prostitute part or both?

The whole package. The prostitute thing, the deliberate voice clash, much of the dialogue, etc.

in any case, no one is "censoring" bioware. the op very eloquently stated, in the hopes of bioware taking note of the issues inherent in the particular scene, all that was problematic with the portrayal, and indeed with bioware's persistently problematic portrayal of trans* characters in their games. it's not censorship to see what's happening and to react to it in the hopes that maybe it will stop happening.

Well, not no one. I'm very interested in censoring Bioware on this issue, albeit through market pressure.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 09 octobre 2011 - 07:09 .

[Anyroad2]

Xilizhra wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

Did it need to be Serendipity? Maybe and maybe not. I'm sure people recognize this particular prostitute moreso than anyone else in the Blooming Rose. The only other prostitute that I may recognize off the top of my head would be that male elf who you talk to when looking for that guys wife.

Bran was already established as Serendipity's customer, I believe.

Having it Be Serendipity was imbecilic regardless. In fact, Serendipity's very existence is imbecilic.

Whats wrong with Serendipity being in the game? Is it because of the Trans part or because of the prostitute part or both?

The whole package. The prostitute thing, the deliberate voice clash, much of the dialogue, etc.

Should everyone be offeneded when they belive some character they relate with falls into a negative light then? 

Modifié par Anyroad2, 09 octobre 2011 - 07:10 .