497 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

Xilizhra wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The number of people who are saying to "get over it" whilst spending so much time complaining about complaints is utterly fascinating.

I've respected Bioware for including same sex realtionships, but I don't expect them to include every wrinkle society has to offer. It pisses me off when people get their panties in a bundle over stuff like this. I'm sorry, but I really do feel like telling those offended to get the f*ck over it. The world doesn't revolve around you. 

How very compassionate of you. Why don't YOU get over it first? The world doesn't revolve around you either, you know. You don't know what this person and others who share their circumstances go through, and I'm inclined to take them at their word that certain things are hurtful. People are allowed to say that they find things hurtful. If that bothers you, take your own medicine and get over it. How about that?

I don't condone actions that would supress artistic creativity, even if it's just a joke, Bioware is allowed that in my book. If I'm offended by it, so be it. And I move on.

The problem of this thread stemmed from a lack of proper dialogue for a specific scene. Bringing it to the writer's attention will motivate them to be more careful in filling in dialogue. This will make the artistic expression superior in the future. Your argument is invalid.

And side benefit? The jokes will be FUNNY.

[unlimited_sake]

On page 7, Ferris95 wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

I'm amazed at how sensitive Americans are. In South Africa gay women are often subject to "corrective rape", but you guys whine about a joke. People are determined to look for problems.

One horrible act does not negate a slightly less horrible act.

slightly less horrible

slightly

what.

[Gunderic]

first world problems.

[Siansonea]

Danyu wrote...
*snip*
And while, it really would be interesting and something different to see an transgender main character/companion for a dragon age game, I agree with Gaider on it being a tough sell. A good example is the new Ultimate Spider-Man comic where Peter Parker was killed in place of a Hispanic/Black kid. Myself, being a big Origins and DA2 fan would be turned off by the idea of a transgender main character and see it just as a gimmick.
*snip*

I think it can be accomplished with a relatively minor character, someone who is just part of the world, or several someones. It doesn't have to be a "look at me, I'm transgender!" character, in fact that would probably not be the best choice. That's part of the problem with the Serendipity character, her trans status appears to be played as a punchline, it is her salient trait, and there's very little else that we know about her. But what if Serendipity wasn't just a throwaway character? What if she was someone who held the key for some important matter Hawke was investigating? What if we could see a glimpse of her "humanity" (yes, I know she's an elf). And what if there was a random NPC in the game who we discover to be transgender, whose status as trans is rather beside the point, simply an interesting side note about the character? I think that's a more positive portrayal myself, since transgender people are actually people first and transgender second (or third, or fourth...).

[Inquisitor Recon]

Because we all know if you're a white straight male you automatically have it easy in life. Yep, nothing bad has ever happened to me or any other white straight male in existence. So for the sake of "fairness" Bioware should have to portray every minority the way the OP wants. How dare transvestites/gays/whatever ever be the target of humor like everybody else is at some point in their lives? You shouldn't have to "deal with it" like the rest of us.

Bioware ought to be sent to the reeducation camp for the horrible act of making Hawke act in a believable manner after seeing this "high-class" noble brought a transvestite prostitute along with him. Awkward moments never happen IRL after-all.

Does nobody else realize how absurd this whole scenario is?
1. Gay/bi/tranny group "requests" *cough*demands*cough* representation, all LI choices, etc.
2. All representation must be in a positive manner.
3. Anybody who thinks this is a poor idea is a terrible bronze age bigot/somethingphobe who ought to have their opinion suppressed.
4. Repeat process for next "request."

Modifié par ReconTeam, 11 octobre 2011 - 05:50 .

[Siansonea]

Gunderic wrote...

first world problems.

Hey look, another dismissive internet meme. Subject remains valid, for all your efforts.

[Siansonea]

ReconTeam wrote...

Because we all know if you're white straight male you automatically have it easy in life. Yep, nothing bad has ever happened to me or any other white straight male in existence. So for the sake of "fairness" Bioware should have to portray every minority the way the OP wants. How dare transvestites/gays/whatever ever be the target of humor like everybody else is at some point in their lives? You shouldn't have to "deal with it" like the rest of us.

Bioware ought to be sent to the reeducation camp for the horrible act of making Hawke act in a believable manner after seeing this "high-class" noble brought a transvestite prostitute along with him. Awkward moments never happen IRL after-all.

Does nobody else realize how absurd this whole scenario is?
1. Gay/bi/tranny group "requests" *cough*demands*cough* representation, all LI choices, etc.
2. All representation must be in a positive manner.
3. Anybody who thinks this is a poor idea is a terrible bronze age bigot/somethingphobe who ought to have their opinion suppressed.
4. Repeat process for next "request."

I knew it wouldn't be long before you found your way in here. You just can't stay away from this stuff, can you? For what it's worth, I don't think anyone should be bullied or ridiculed, even straight white males. Personally, I don't find humor based on ridicule to be humorous at all. The butt of the joke should be in on the joke.

[Fidget6]

ReconTeam wrote...

Because we all know if you're white straight male you automatically have it easy in life. Yep, nothing bad has ever happened to me or any other white straight male in existence. So for the sake of "fairness" Bioware should have to portray every minority the way the OP wants. How dare transvestites/gays/whatever ever be the target of humor like everybody else is at some point in their lives? You shouldn't have to "deal with it" like the rest of us.

I'm a gay white male who actually kind of agrees. Also, people need to keep in mind just because a character someone writes is uncomfortable with something doesn't mean that reflects the opinions of the writers themselves..... American History X's main characters were neo-n@zis. Does that mean the writer (David McKenna) is a neo-n@zi? Of course not. I laugh my @ss off at the gay jokes on Family Guy (which writer Seth McFarlane is a huge supporter of gay rights btw) It's okay to laugh at ourselves from time to time. 

EDIT: Huh..... it seems n@zi is censored for some reason. Odd.

Modifié par Fidget6, 11 octobre 2011 - 05:55 .

[Danyu]

Siansonea II wrote...

Danyu wrote...
*snip*
And while, it really would be interesting and something different to see an transgender main character/companion for a dragon age game, I agree with Gaider on it being a tough sell. A good example is the new Ultimate Spider-Man comic where Peter Parker was killed in place of a Hispanic/Black kid. Myself, being a big Origins and DA2 fan would be turned off by the idea of a transgender main character and see it just as a gimmick.
*snip*

I think it can be accomplished with a relatively minor character, someone who is just part of the world, or several someones. It doesn't have to be a "look at me, I'm transgender!" character, in fact that would probably not be the best choice. That's part of the problem with the Serendipity character, her trans status appears to be played as a punchline, it is her salient trait, and there's very little else that we know about her. But what if Serendipity wasn't just a throwaway character? What if she was someone who held the key for some important matter Hawke was investigating? What if we could see a glimpse of her "humanity" (yes, I know she's an elf). And what if there was a random NPC in the game who we discover to be transgender, whose status as trans is rather beside the point, simply an interesting side note about the character? I think that's a more positive portrayal myself, since transgender people are actually people first and transgender second (or third, or fourth...).

But why are we making a transgenger character important just because the character is transgender? I used to work at an overnight hotel near New Orleans and to be frank, I came across A LOT more crossdressers than probably anyone has in this thread. I'd say a good half of them at least were represented pretty accurate by Serendipity.

...But then again, it's New Orleans.

[Xilizhra]

ReconTeam wrote...

Because we all know if you're a white straight male you automatically have it easy in life. Yep, nothing bad has ever happened to me or any other white straight male in existence. So for the sake of "fairness" Bioware should have to portray every minority the way the OP wants. How dare transvestites/gays/whatever ever be the target of humor like everybody else is at some point in their lives? You shouldn't have to "deal with it" like the rest of us.

Bioware ought to be sent to the reeducation camp for the horrible act of making Hawke act in a believable manner after seeing this "high-class" noble brought a transvestite prostitute along with him. Awkward moments never happen IRL after-all.

Does nobody else realize how absurd this whole scenario is?
1. Gay/bi/tranny group "requests" *cough*demands*cough* representation, all LI choices, etc.
2. All representation must be in a positive manner.
3. Anybody who thinks this is a poor idea is a terrible bronze age bigot/somethingphobe who ought to have their opinion suppressed.
4. Repeat process for next "request."

I'm still waiting on that explanation for why you can dismiss something as just a game one moment and then go enraged about a similar issue in the same game.

[Gunderic]

Siansonea II wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

first world problems.

Hey look, another dismissive internet meme. Subject remains valid, for all your efforts.

I am overjoyed. 

[Siansonea]

Danyu wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Danyu wrote...
*snip*
And while, it really would be interesting and something different to see an transgender main character/companion for a dragon age game, I agree with Gaider on it being a tough sell. A good example is the new Ultimate Spider-Man comic where Peter Parker was killed in place of a Hispanic/Black kid. Myself, being a big Origins and DA2 fan would be turned off by the idea of a transgender main character and see it just as a gimmick.
*snip*

I think it can be accomplished with a relatively minor character, someone who is just part of the world, or several someones. It doesn't have to be a "look at me, I'm transgender!" character, in fact that would probably not be the best choice. That's part of the problem with the Serendipity character, her trans status appears to be played as a punchline, it is her salient trait, and there's very little else that we know about her. But what if Serendipity wasn't just a throwaway character? What if she was someone who held the key for some important matter Hawke was investigating? What if we could see a glimpse of her "humanity" (yes, I know she's an elf). And what if there was a random NPC in the game who we discover to be transgender, whose status as trans is rather beside the point, simply an interesting side note about the character? I think that's a more positive portrayal myself, since transgender people are actually people first and transgender second (or third, or fourth...).

But why are we making a transgenger character important just because the character is transgender? I used to work at an overnight hotel near New Orleans and to be frank, I came across A LOT more crossdressers than probably anyone has in this thread. I'd say a good half of them at least were represented pretty accurate by Serendipity.

...But then again, it's New Orleans.

In a world as big as Dragon Age, you would expect to run across a trans person every now and then. And I'm actually not advocating making a character important "just because the characters is transgender". The trans element shouldn't be pressed too hard, actually, and the character's status as a trans person should NOT be the whole point of the character. Take a fully realized character, and now put them in an opposite-sex body. Extrapolate how that affects the character, and then use the character in an interesting story. But don't make it all about the character being trans, because more than likely the character doesn't sit around "being trans" all day, they simply live their life and pursue their interests. Those interests should be the plot points, not the character's gender identity.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Xilizhra wrote...
I'm still waiting on that explanation for why you can dismiss something as just a game one moment and then go enraged
about a similar issue in the same game.

Well the difference seems pretty obvious to me, but I'll clairfy. I'm not the one asking for these downright idiotic decisions like all LIs being bisexual. I'm not asking for transvestites to be portrayed in games but only in a positive manner. I simply loathe how crazy this obsession with politically-correct "fairness", quotas, and special treatment has gotten, especially in a damned video game. For the playerbase as a whole, this stuff only harms, rather than helps, the quality of the game. I see you're swayed by the OP's sob-story, but it's still rather amusing that I'm such a target among your group. Seems I've really hit a nerve. As has anyone who puts these "first world problems" into perspective.

But please, resume the disingenuous assertions about anybody who doesn't play along. How I'm a homophobe/transphobe/biphobe/panphobe/sexist/heterocentrist or whatever the word of the day is. Maybe try inventing a whole new word. Then you can go back to saying what Bioware should do and how they're terrible if they don't take your advice.

[D.Kain]

I think that there is too little sexism going on in dragon age for there to be trans people in the first place.. In an ideal gender equal world, trans people = silly. Just my opinion.

Modifié par D.Kain, 11 octobre 2011 - 06:35 .

[Blacklash93]

ReconTeam wrote...

Well the difference seems pretty obvious to me, but I'll clairfy. I'm not the one asking for these downright idiotic decisions like all LIs being bisexual.

 
Meh. Opinions.

I'm not asking for transvestites to be portrayed in games but only in a positive manner. I simply loathe how crazy this obsession with politically-correct "fairness", quotas, and special treatment has gotten, especially in a damned video game.

God forbid a group that's constantly made fun of see a little positive representation in the media, especially when they've tolerated negative representation for so long. We tolerate many quotas in videogames, but apparently you've decided to make this one special.
 

For the playerbase as a whole, this stuff only harms, rather than helps, the quality of the game. I see you're swayed by the OP's sob-story, but it's still rather amusing that I'm such a target among your group. Seems I've really hit a nerve. As has anyone who puts these "first world problems" into perspective.

If you can't enjoy this content, then that's your perogative. Don't assume other straight people can't enjoy or appretiate LGBT content.

Sob-story? How would you feel to be painted as a freak in the media? The OP demanded nothing and was only voicing concern.

And you're just the most vocal about it. The only nerve you've struck is with our patience.

But please, resume the disingenuous assertions about anybody who doesn't play along. How I'm a homophobe/transphobe/biphobe/panphobe/sexist/heterocentrist or whatever the word of the day is. Maybe try inventing a whole new word. Then you can go back to saying what Bioware should do and how they're terrible if they don't take your advice.

I don't really consider you any of those. Just a biased, arrogant, self-centered, insensetive jerk who gets irratoinally pissed off about things that have nothing to do with him. And also had political correctness fornicate with his mother.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 11 octobre 2011 - 06:47 .

[Andraste_Reborn]

Staying out of the wasps' nest of insults ... I think it would be lovely to have a trans character in a DA game who wasn't in a brothel. (I don't actually think there's anything wrong with working in a brothel, mind you, but as the only way for trans characters to appear it's less than ideal.)

One of the things I loved about Wade and Herren in DAO is that their sexuality has nothing to with the Warden. It's just there. They exist in the world so that you'll have someone to buy armor from, the fact that they're a couple is incidental. Even better, the reason they're funny isn't that they're gay, it's that Wade is a huge drama queen and Herren is hilariously long-suffering.

What I would like to see in the Dragon Age world is a trans equivalent of Wade and Herren. I appreciate that this is not necessarily an easy thing to pull off (making it clear that a character is trans without it being a big deal is a little harder than making someone incidentally gay) but I think it would be well worth doing.

Modifié par Andrastee, 11 octobre 2011 - 06:52 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

Blacklash93 wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Well the difference seems pretty obvious to me, but I'll clairfy. I'm not the one asking for these downright idiotic decisions like all LIs being bisexual.

 
Meh. Opinions.

I'm not asking for transvestites to be portrayed in games but only in a positive manner. I simply loathe how crazy this obsession with politically-correct "fairness", quotas, and special treatment has gotten, especially in a damned video game.

God forbid a group that's constantly made fun of see a little positive representation in the media, especially when they've tolerated negative representation for so long. We tolerate many quotas in videogames, but apparently you've decided to make this one special.
 

For the playerbase as a whole, this stuff only harms, rather than helps, the quality of the game. I see you're swayed by the OP's sob-story, but it's still rather amusing that I'm such a target among your group. Seems I've really hit a nerve. As has anyone who puts these "first world problems" into perspective.

If you can't enjoy this content, then that's your perogative. Don't assume other straight people can't enjoy or appretiate LGBT content.

Sob-story? How would you feel to be painted as a freak in the media? The OP demanded nothing and was only voicing concern.

And you're just the most vocal about it. The only nerve you've struck is with our patience.

But please, resume the disingenuous assertions about anybody who doesn't play along. How I'm a homophobe/transphobe/biphobe/panphobe/sexist/heterocentrist or whatever the word of the day is. Maybe try inventing a whole new word. Then you can go back to saying what Bioware should do and how they're terrible if they don't take your advice.

I don't really consider you any of those. Just a biased, arrogant, self-centered, insensetive jerk who gets irratoinally pissed off about things that have nothing to do with him. And also had political correctness fornicate with his mother.

You think the world revolves around you and your preferences? More pressing matters plague this world and MUCH worse prejudices are apparent. 

Get off your high horse you self-righteous git.

God i ****ing hate these forums. I come to talk about video games and get caught up in iditoic drivel. I'm no less a fool than all of you.

[Volourn]

BTW, It wouldn't bother me a bit if BIO had a transgender character as an addable character. I just think things should be added out of pandering. Just like gay characters don't bother me. Nor does it bother me when another white hetero male is shown either as a huge sexist perfvert or a ridiclous mornoic toolbag.

I wonder if all these transgender fans would approve a transgender character that was a major character painted in a negative light or just want things to be happy and rosey?

[Inquisitor Recon]

Blacklash93 wrote...
God forbid a group that's constantly made fun of see a little positive representation in the media, especially when they've tolerated negative representation for so long. We tolerate many quotas in videogames, but apparently you've decided to make this one special.

Cry me a river. We don't need more quotas and nobody is owed a certain representation. I've made this one special? Why it seems you've taken quite the interest in supporting this since I've shown up.

If you can't enjoy this content, then that's your perogative. Don't assume other straight people can't enjoy or appretiate LGBT content.

This content? You mean the content that the OP is whining about because he finds an awkward moment offensive?

Sob-story? How would you feel to be painted as a freak in the media? The OP demanded nothing and was only voicing concern.

The big bad media? Give me a break. Everybody is the target of some jokes IRL. The OP was giving his sob-story to try to earn some sympathy, if he wasn't trolling merely to get you self-righteous types ranting about how wrong Bioware is.

And you're just the most vocal about it. The only nerve you've struck is with our patience.

Yep, because I'm the one making these topics, making the demands, and whining about not represented properly in game... oh wait, that's you. Your patience? Seems you never had any of that.

I don't really consider you any of those. Just a biased, insensetive jerk who gets irratoinally pissed off about things that have nothing to do with him. And also had political correctness fornicate with his mother.

We're all biased, that's the nature of opinions. Am I supposed to care that you think I'm an "insensitive jerk" because I don't pity the OP. Irrationally pissed off? You mean like getting offended at an awkward moment in DA2 DLC? More mother jokes? How clever. I'll tell your mom that one the next time she visits.

[Blacklash93]

Cool story bro.

The world does not revolve around me and my preferences. They obviously just happen to revolve around yours. But I'm apparently a criminal for asking for a few scraps here and there.

Bigger problems and worse prejudices? According to that mentality, gays will never make any progress in society because the world will never stop seeing bigger problems. That's called procrastinating. The world can work on multiple issues at once, you know.

Self-righteous? Apparently I'm self-righteous for calling out jaded, biased BS when I see it.

[Blacklash93]

ReconTeam wrote...

Cry me a river. We don't need more quotas and nobody is owed a certain representation. I've made this one special? Why it seems you've taken quite the interest in supporting this since I've shown up.

We don't need more quotas? Even ones YOU can easily ignore? Nobody is owed representation, but you've decided that just means they aren't worth it.

The difference is that you're not an advocate - you're just a heckler roaring from the sidelines when you have no place in this issue. You just don't like the quota because you don't like homosexualtiy. You're biased.

The big bad media? Give me a break. Everybody is the target of some jokes IRL. The OP was giving his sob-story to try to earn some sympathy, if he wasn't trolling merely to get you self-righteous types ranting about how wrong Bioware is.

The media paints trans individuals as almost exclusively as gross and disgusting and only worth representing if they're the butt of a joke. You're not a minority so you could never know how that feels.

Yep, because I'm the one making these topics, making the demands, and whining about not represented properly in game... oh wait, that's you. Your patience? Seems you never had any of that.

I'd say whining about someone else's problem is just as bad. And just as self-righteous, but more pointless.

We're all biased, that's the nature of opinions. Am I supposed to care that you think I'm an "insensitive jerk" because I don't pity the OP. Irrationally pissed off? You mean like getting offended at an awkward moment in DA2 DLC? More mother jokes? How clever. I'll tell your mom that one the next time she visits.

True, but I don't go out of my way to be a politically incorrect dick. And when did you ever get the feeling that the OP was pissed off? The OP was merely saddened and expressing concern.

And you are biased beyond in a way most people can't even imagine. Don't even try to deny it. But please, feel free to drag me down to your level if it makes you feel more adequate.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 11 octobre 2011 - 07:24 .

[Darth Krytie]

My god...I've been away for a while, so I was surprised to find this thread when I came back. I mean...I feel for the OP. You have my support, hon, you do. And I'm pleased by the response of the Bioware Folks. Owning up to faults, apologising, discussing how to deal with it in the future, respecting opinions. That's lovely.

But, to my amazement, people who had epically long and detailed furious rage about *possible* inventory changes in future installments suddenly feel like we've lost the right to complain to Bioware? Really? It's fine if we're raging because some particular build is nerfed or a particular character doesn't look great or makes a goofy swooping is bad joke, but a legit issue with the portrayal of a minority happens and suddenly it's all, you shouldn't complain, don't like/don't play, and Bioware has the right to do whatever? Where was this attitude over in the DA2sux threads? Seriously.

Anyhow, again, brava OP, for being brave enough to say what you said. And thanks, Gaider, Kirby, for treating the OP and the opinions expressed in this thread with respect. (It's the only reason I'll be buying this DLC after learning about that scene)

[David Gaider]

Whoa, people.

I'll chime in on this topic one more time, since it's devolved (predictably) into back-and-forth insults.

Before closing this down, however, I'll leave people with a couple of thoughts:

Nobody likes to think of themselves as having a privileged mindset. Why would you? I'm as bad at that as anyone else, and it can be uncomfortable to have it pointed out to you. If you're comparing a representation of minority to a representation of anyone else, however, that's exactly the sort of mindset you're indulging. They're not equal, because (as the OP pointed out) there's not a lot of representation for those groups out there... so any chance of there being good to match the bad is unlikely.

Is Serendipity a bad representation? I don't think so-- in my mind, this is a bit like the people who claimed that Zevran was a bad stereotype because he was (in their view) too flamboyant and sexual. Never mind that he was just a single character and not meant to represent any larger group, positively or negatively. But (and that's a big but) you must also respect the fact that minorities are sensitive to that kind of portrayal because that's all they see. You don't get to come in and say "I don't see what all the fuss is about"... because of course you wouldn't. That goes without saying. So, yes, you (and I) just have to take them at their word when they say it's insensitive.

When I first saw the exchange with Serendipity, I honestly just thought the "awkward" part was the fact that the seneschal had brought a prostitute to a high-class social gathering... a rather awesome, sassy prostitute, but a prostitute nevertheless. I didn't see anything wrong with it, because I don't consider Serendipity to be the butt of anyone's joke-- Honey Badger don't take no guff from anyone-- and rather it's the seneschal who has that honor... and I knew what Mary was getting at. But, as Mary said, intentions don't really matter. I can see how someone might look at it from another angle... and, yes, you could claim they were seeing something that wasn't there, but they can only look at it from their perspective just as we can only look at it from ours. That doesn't make their perspective invalid, and we must respect that.

Nobody's asked for a quota of "special rights" characters, or demanded that we only represent minorities in a certain light or done anything more, really, than ask that we stop and consider how we use some characters when they're the only characters of that type that get represented anywhere. And that's fair.

The point has been made, and I've definitely heard it-- and I think that those people on either side who've worked themselves up into a frenzy should take a moment and consider where they're taking this argument... because I frankly don't think we're talking about the game at this point. I'm going to close down this thread and ask that you take that moment.

And thank you again to the OP. While I'm closing this thread, that shouldn't be taken as an indictment of your viewpoint from us developers.

Modifié par David Gaider, 11 octobre 2011 - 08:54 .