497 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Should everyone be offeneded when some character they relate with falls into a negative light then?

When there's no such thing as a positive light for that character type, most certainly.

[naledgeborn]

Anyroad2 wrote...

Whats wrong with Serendipity being in the game? Is it because of the Trans part or because of the prostitute part or both?

Nothing. Both. And because some people are as sensitive as an inflamed genital rash. Thanks for the Bran name drop by the way. Set me up good.

Seriously people need to grow some balls. No pun intended. How do you think it felt being called a terrorist (albiet jokingly) while serving in the USAF? How do you think it still feels for black people to be called ****s? Guess what most people shrug and keep it moving. Ignorance is not worth the time of day.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 09 octobre 2011 - 07:13 .

[Anyroad2]

Xilizhra wrote...

Should everyone be offeneded when some character they relate with falls into a negative light then?

When there's no such thing as a positive light for that character type, most certainly.

Is it Biowares job to put them into a postive light then?

Also, I know of a trans* character thats portrayed very well in Nier. If you havent played it, or looked up anything about it I suggest you do. Look up Kaine. He/She (because its never made direcly clear) is a really interesting character.

Modifié par Anyroad2, 09 octobre 2011 - 07:14 .

[MG800]

ademska wrote...

MG800 wrote...

Ah yes, hysteria and jerkfest.
First, it's very mild. But it's true, there's negative picture or lack of thereof in media, and creating situations like this should be avoided. But, If I saw hawt woman, and she spoke to me with a deep, sexy, and very manly voice, I would be surprised too. The problem arises, when there's only this "comic relief" and no examples of "ok" or at least "weird, but whatevs".

and since that is the case in dragon age, we agree there is a problem?

so, then, why call it 'hysteria and jerkfest'?

I'm talking about people responding. About this few "I don't understand, wtf you expect me to be sorry about it?!" that make me gnash my teeth in frustration. 
And the number of comments claimnig full disappointment.
It's bad. But it's bad, not because of the "joke" itself, but because lack of the other message.

[Xilizhra]

naledgeborn wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

Whats wrong with Serendipity being in the game? Is it because of the Trans part or because of the prostitute part or both?

Nothing. Both.. And because some people are as sensitive as an iflamed genital rash. Thanks for the Bran name drop by the way. Set me up good.

Seriously people need to grow some balls. No pun intended. How do you think it felt being called a terrosist (albiet jokingly) while serving in the USAF? How do you think it still feels for black people to be called ****s? Guess what most people shrug and keep it moving. Ignorance is not worth the time of day.

The people who shrug it off and keep moving while doing nothing to change it or draw attention to it are morons. But they can still be beneficiaries of a more enlightened world even if they don't bother to try for it.

[Xilizhra]

Anyroad2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Should everyone be offeneded when some character they relate with falls into a negative light then?

When there's no such thing as a positive light for that character type, most certainly.

Is it Biowares job to put them into a postive light then? 

If in any light at all, yes. Or at least not an exclusively negative one.

[alex90c]

naledgeborn wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

Whats wrong with Serendipity being in the game? Is it because of the Trans part or because of the prostitute part or both?

Nothing. Both.. And because some people are as sensitive as an iflamed genital rash. Thanks for the Bran name drop by the way. Set me up good.

Seriously people need to grow some balls. No pun intended. How do you think it felt being called a terrosist (albiet jokingly) while serving in the USAF? How do you think it still feels for black people to be called ****s? Guess what most people shrug and keep it moving. Ignorance is not worth the time of day.

Yes but racism (at least against blacks anyway, there's probably a lot more stupid prejudice against muslims "hurdur terrorists") is nowhere near as widespread as it once was. The most racism I've ever had are just a few racial jokes among my friends, but I've never actually been openly discriminated against for my colour, whereas in the case discussed in this thread, there is widespread discrimination.

[Siansonea]

That was a pretty facepalmworthy scene. I definitely felt that Serendipity's trans-ness was the "punchline" moreso than her status as a prostitute. But I do kind of like that Bran had the stones to bring her to a fancy party. But really, this kind of thing, if you're going to put in the game, should be balanced by humanizing elements and positive portrayals. I definitely don't like the fact that trans people seem to be one of the "acceptable targets" in the media. The "guy in a dress" trope is tired and just not funny.

And it's not about censorship, it's about good taste. Censorship is about stifling political dissent, commentary, satire, etc.,— not about allowing everybody to be boorish and insensitive to their fellows with impunity. Not every mean-spirited thought should be given voice because "it's a free country". Being a jerk is being a jerk, don't bring the Constitution into it.

[whykikyouwhy]

Anyroad2 wrote...

I can understand why you're offended OP.

However... I watched the clip, and I figured that Hawke and Tallis could just be uncomfortable because Brann seems to have taken a known prostitute to a pretty high class event. It is a possibility. No one but the writers know what their intent was.

Did it need to be Serendipity? Maybe and maybe not. I'm sure people recognize this particular prostitute moreso than anyone else in the Blooming Rose. The only other prostitute that I may recognize off the top of my head would be that male elf who you talk to when looking for that guys wife.

My reaction to the clip was very much like Anyroad2's - my initial thought was that the characters were responding to the Seneschal being at an event with a prostitute.

The diplomatic dialogue option comes across much differently - Hawke politely acknowledges the introduction, and the characters move on. Where I see the harshness of the reaction really is with Tallis' comment of "awkward" - she is clearly uncomfortable by something. Is it the presence of a prostitute? Is it Serendipity's deep voice? Is it a combination of both? I don't know, and I would need to hear from one of the writers to really understand the full picture and intent behind this scene.

It's true that there is little positive representation for the transgender community in media and entertainment, particularly video games. And while this saddens me somewhat, I would still be interested to hear a dev comment on the matter. And, as someone else remarked, I think that if there will be anyone who will step to the plate and bring about a positive and potentially kick*ss trans!character that is, it would be Bioware. That's my hope at least. If it's proven to be misguided, well, so be it.

[LordKinoda]

get back to me when being "ostracized" for your taste in music involves your basic civil rights being denied to you and then this will actually be a valid analogy.

Ugh, it was a quick example.

However, plenty of people have been fired, scruntinzed, and beat up for the music they like or hobbies they enjoy. Not so much nowadays. But it has happened. I'd say getting your ass kicked for liking hair bands is a fair example of your civil rights being violated no ? What about rappers and the shootings they have over the lyrics in their songs ? Violating civil rights for words. Happy now ?

Oh, don't worry. We'll handle the censoring ourselves.

Heh, try to handle it all you want. But don't be surpised when I'm right next you making sure you that you DON'T.

How exactly is the OP doing anything else than voicing objections? How does that constitute "cencoring" free speech? Understanding and acceptance doesn't come by itself, you know. How is anything ever going to change if no one asks for change to happen?

He's suggesting that BW change their game so he's not offended by the content in it. I won't suggest that BioWare change their game because somebody is offended by it. Change the content because the quality isn't as good as it was in DAO. Change the game because the maps are repeateded. Change the game because some of the combat mechanics are silly. But change the game because somebody is offended by a joke in poor taste ? Nope.

[Xilizhra]

Oh yeah. I'm a moron for not causing a **** storm or getting all eyes turned on me. No thanks. Keep fighting the good fight lol.

I will, which will be easier when you're out of my way.

However, plenty of people have been fired, scruntinzed, and beat up for the music they like or hobbies they enjoy. Not so much nowadays. But it has happened. I'd say getting your ass kicked for liking hair bands is a fair example of your civil rights being violated no ? What about rappers and the shootings they have over the lyrics in their songs ? Violating civil rights for words. Happy now ?

Acceptable. They should also be angry about that issue and attempt to change it.

Heh, try to handle it all you want. But don't be surpised when I'm right next you making sure you that you DON'T.

Are you going to try to organize some kind of anti-boycott? What would be the point?

He's suggesting that BW change their game so he's not offended by the content in it. I won't suggest that BioWare change their game because somebody is offended by it. Change the content because the quality isn't as good as it was in DAO. Change the game because the maps are repeateded. Change the game because some of the combat mechanics are silly. But change the game because somebody is offended by a joke in poor taste ? Nope.

All of this is just taste. If someone is offended by this sort of thing, it's their right to place pressure on Bioware to change things.

[Siansonea]

naledgeborn wrote...

Yeah cause internet/armchair revolutionaries are essential to the "cause". Giving yourself a little too much credit there Xi.

Well, aren't you the agent provacateur. You're just as unimportant, pal.

[Anyroad2]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

It's true that there is little positive representation for the transgender community in media and entertainment, particularly video games. And while this saddens me somewhat, I would still be interested to hear a dev comment on the matter. And, as someone else remarked, I think that if there will be anyone who will step to the plate and bring about a positive and potentially kick*ss trans!character that is, it would be Bioware. That's my hope at least. If it's proven to be misguided, well, so be it.

Go look up Kaine from Nier.
He/She (its never made clear) is a super kickbutt character whos identity isnt deterimed by whatever gender he/she were born as (or what gender he/she feels like).

[Mykel54]

You may not find it "productive" or like reading what i´ve say, but i feel it is my obligation to do so: You should seek a professional to help you with your sexuality problem, trans* is not something to live with and be ignored (contrary to what the gay lobby would tell you). You have a health problem, and you can choose to live with it and deal with the consequences, or seek aid to try and resolve it.

Lastly, I should add that any person, not only trans*, is bound to find offensive material on the TV, movies, books, and video games. People chose what they like viewing and ignore the rest. I respect your forthrigness but it will change little, and you better steel yourself, the world is not going to change itself in order to not offend your sensibility.

Modifié par Mykel54, 09 octobre 2011 - 07:22 .

[naledgeborn]

Talk is cheap. I've been on marches what have you done lately other than whine about what should/not be in video games?

[Xilizhra]

Mykel54 wrote...

You may not find it "productive" or like reading what i´ve say, but i feel it is my obligation to do so: You should seek a professional to help you with your sexuality problem, trans* is not something to live with and be ignored (contrary to what the gay lobby would tell you). You have a health problem, and you can choose to live with it and deal with the consequences, our try to seek aid to try and resolve it.

Lastly, I should add that any person, not only trans*, is bound to find offensive material on the TV, movies, books, and video games. People chose what they like viewing and ignore the rest. I respect your forthrigness but it will change little, and you better steel yourself, the world is not going to change itself in order to not offend your sensibility.

Erm. Absolutely no one in the "gay lobby" is telling people to ignore gender dysphoria, but to solve it via transitioning.

Talk is cheap. I've been on marches what have you done lately other than whine about what should/not be in video games?

Which marches?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 09 octobre 2011 - 07:22 .

[ademska]

MG800 wrote...

ademska wrote...

and since that is the case in dragon age, we agree there is a problem?

so, then, why call it 'hysteria and jerkfest'?

I'm talking about people responding. About this few "I don't understand, wtf you expect me to be sorry about it?!" that make me gnash my teeth in frustration. 
And the number of comments claimnig full disappointment.
It's bad. But it's bad, not because of the "joke" itself, but because lack of the other message.

ah, so the jerkfest remark is about people claiming everyone is oversensitive. good.

as to the 'hysteria'/people who are extremely disappointed in bioware, the op specifically stated that there are no positive or even not fully comic-relief portrayals on trans* characters in dragon age (or really any media). we are well aware that this joke is problematic not on its own but because of the context.

wade and herren do not offend me personally because of anders, isabela, zevran, and leliana. there are non-comic relief portrayals of queer characters in dragon age, and thus the more stereotypical couple that exists just as they do irl is not problematic. (however, i will note that no one ever expresses awkwardness or disgust around wade'n'herren or jethann.)

there is no such precedent for trans* characters in dragon age, and i think we're all more than aware of that. the people who are offended and disappointed today are not at fault for anything.


so once again, to bioware writers: there was no reason for this scene, and it has hurt a lot of people - even dissuaded some from purchasing your hard work. please acknowledge this today and in your future endeavors.

[Gvaz]

That transgendered scene is absolutely offensive. Who the **** thought that was appropriate?

[naledgeborn]

Million Man, Million More.

[LordKinoda]

Are you going to try to organize some kind of anti-boycott? What would be the point?

Meaning I'll be there to voice my opposition to censorship

All of this is just taste. If someone is offended by this sort of thing, it's their right to place pressure on Bioware to change things.

Go for it. But don't expect be to be on your side 100%. Censorship has always been a huge annoyance for me, and it always will be. There is always the option to ignore. That's what really sets me off. The FCC, MPAA, and ESRB. All of them can kiss my ass, seriously. Along with anybody else who is incapable of changing the channel, turning down the volume, not playing the game, or just plain pulling the plug.

[amnesiophilia]

more support for this, it is stupid and it does make me uncomfortable and make me wanna stop playing whatever game it happens in. The brothel in DAO made me feel pretty sick too!

[Xilizhra]

Go for it. But don't expect be to be on your side 100%. Censorship has always been a huge annoyance for me

What censorship do you mean? Government or otherwise?

[LordKinoda]

ANY censorship. Of any kind. Nothing should be censor for fear of it offending somebody. Period.