497 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Too emotional, too sensitive, for something anecdotal of a video game. Yes a video game, as part of an entertainment. There may be things you think of bad taste, but useless to sue a company video game for something anecdotally that lasts less than a minute and that is again anecdotal. Ignore it.

No one mentioned lawsuits, it would never work. We can, however, complain vehemently, and will do so.

This topic is proof that Bioware with its social considerations is a prisoner of its policy. Now every game content of Bioware is deemed offensive by each different group born of people. Bioware is not anymore a video game company here , but for many a political showcase of social problems that must advance the cause of one political group or another, which wants this or that, less or more.etc

Bioware is also being well supported and purchased from by that demographic, many of whom would never look at a game without such diverse and often well-done protagonists and romance choices. It's by no means a mistake to have done that; this is a chance for a valuable learning experience for Bioware.

[naledgeborn]

Siansonea II wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

You marches are organized, and your slogans written, by people like Xilizhra.

Someone's gonna be the brain of the operation, no? 

Sure laugh all you want. Don't have to prove anything. I traveled cross country to hear Louis Farrakhan and Betty Shabazz  speak among other promintent figures. I was there in DC in '95. What have all the countless whiners on BSN done other than post rants and complaints?

More than you might think. You might believe we have limited ourselves to expressing our views here on the BSN, but I can tell you I have personally visited Congresspeople to discuss matters that I care about, both on a state and national level. I volunteered with the campaign to elect Houston's first openly lesbian City Council member in the late 1990s. So put that in your pipe and smoke it. Just because you see what we post on the BSN doesn't mean you know everything there is to know about the extent of our individual efforts to effect social change. Don't assume.

So what that gives you and myself privelige in making demands of BW? I could write at 10 page post on why Jacob Taylor's loyalty mission is racist. Did I? No. Because I'm mature enough  to understand that BW is a company. That isn't owned by me. And that BW will do what it wants to do. I'm pretty sure that was proven with Dragon Age 2. However if they pull something like that again I won't get on the forums and rant about it. I'll address a letter to Casey Hudson himself and hopes it lands in his office in Edmonton or wherever.

I think social/political and other themes should be completely banned from BSN. Maybe that way they won't have to sift through all the spam in between actual game feedback.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 09 octobre 2011 - 07:55 .

[mousestalker]

I Like Cats And wrote...

mousestalker wrote...
snippery...

I like to mock people who aren't especially articulate and can not write or speak logically. They make very easy targets for sarcasm, snarkiness, japery and irony. I generally try not to indulge in this as the contest of wits is quite lopsided and it's a blessing to have mercy on those less well equipped for such contests.

Are you saying that was a mistake on my part? 

what you said had nothing to do with what i posted.

Thank you. I feel especially blessed right now. <3

[I Like Cats And]

Xilizhra wrote...

I Like Cats And wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I Like Cats And wrote...

Can't wait until the whole world is as politicaly correct as all you cry babies want it. Guess what the world's not perfect and you might get made fun of now and then. The video everyone's crying about isn't even that bad. Comedy is 99% making fun of some group so i guess all stand ups should e shunned. Toughen up cause you're never gonna make it at this rate.

Odd, I didn't think humor consisted of ignoring everything other people are saying. Perhaps that explains why your sense of it isn't very good.

don't really know what you mean by that, but your statement was really stupid because ignoring people on a forum leads to a bad sense of humor how?

No, the fact that you thought it was a decent joke shows that you have a bad sense of humor, and your incomprehension of anyone's opinions shows that you haven't been listening to anyone else.

I never said the joke was particuraly funny, it's not really. And I can comprehend other people's opinions, I was simply saying mine. Your the one who needed to personally insult me because i had a different opinion then yours.

Modifié par I Like Cats And, 09 octobre 2011 - 07:54 .

[Anyroad2]

masterthief wrote...

You're missing the point.  People aren't angry because she isn't able to access technology that doesn't exist yet--should she choose to--people are angry because she is being handled like an utter joke and the PC/Tallis both are visibly uncomfortable by her mere presence (or hitting on Hawke).   In Thedas, a fictional society that has already established there is considerably less of a stigma against homosexuality/bisexuality, it's still apparently okay to be uncomfortable by a trans* sex worker doing things like speaking.    Again, SRS or lack thereof is irrelevant to the discussion at large.

There is nothing inherently bad about prostitution.  If that's what someone wants to do, then neither I or anyone else has any business judging their decision.  However, many trans* people are forced into sex work because they don't have any options other than giving cisgender folks Interesting Sex Experiences due to the discrimination they face.   Trans* folk don't exist outside of brothels whatsoever in Dragon Age II, and since that scene appears to be nothing but an unnecessary joke with a trans* character as a punchline when there is zero positive representation whatsoever in the rest of the game, then yeah, I'm angry.  

The thing is, you and others see this as a joke on trans* (which I understand and I feel bad about, thinking that youre the butt of a joke is never fun), but theres no evidence of that at all. Serendipity and Bran do business (this has apparently been established). Hawke and Tallis could just as easily be ucomfortable that Brann brought a prostitute to a high-class event. No one but the writers know.

There very well could be more trans* folk in DA2. If there are, theyre much less noticable than Serendipity is. Can't prove this right or wrong, its just a possibility.

Modifié par Anyroad2, 09 octobre 2011 - 07:56 .

[rak72]

Wow
That was so bad in so many ways, I am now convinced they hired a bunch of 12 yr old interns to write this crap. Normally I'm quite annoyed by political correctness, but this is absolutely tasteless.

I can't see myself buying this DLC after watching that. Even looking past the juvenile humor, the elvers are still so hideously ugly that it hurts to look at them (yes, I'm talking bout you too, Tallis), and Felicia Day's cutesi cutesi look at me I'm a cute elf, line delivery is going to make me want to constantly kick her in the teeth.
While I'm ranting - the continued one dimensionality of the characters. All we ever see of Bran is him being douchy, getting std meds from Anders, running around with prostitutes. We get it, he's creepy. Why not show him rescuing a puppy, or something, to make him interesting. Stop taking your point and pounding us over the head with it.

[I Like Cats And]

mousestalker wrote...

I Like Cats And wrote...

mousestalker wrote...
snippery...

I like to mock people who aren't especially articulate and can not write or speak logically. They make very easy targets for sarcasm, snarkiness, japery and irony. I generally try not to indulge in this as the contest of wits is quite lopsided and it's a blessing to have mercy on those less well equipped for such contests.

Are you saying that was a mistake on my part? 

what you said had nothing to do with what i posted.

Thank you. I feel especially blessed right now. <3

you're just full of wit. using a kissy smiley and then a heart to show your sarcasm, you're a regular George Carlin.

[ademska]

this is game feedback, @naledgeborn.

and it's much more important than recycled maps.

please, @JohnEpler, Stanley Woo, Gaider, Laidlaw, someone. acknowledge what's going on in your product. you've all worked hard to produce art, and to see it so immeasurably tainted by this sort of cissexist nastiness is heartbreaking.

Modifié par ademska, 09 octobre 2011 - 08:02 .

[Xilizhra]

So what that gives you and myself privelige in making demands of BW? I could write at 10 page post on why Jacob Taylor's loyalty mission is racist. Did I? No. Because I'm mature enough to understand that BW is a company. That isn't owned by me. And that BW will do what it wants to do. I'm pretty sure that was proven with Dragon Age 2. However if they pull something like that again I won't get on the forums and rant about. I'll address a letter to Casey Hudson himself and hopes it lands in his office in Edmonton or wherever.

There's no privilege. We're simply expressing opinions to Bioware in the hopes that they'll listen. If you feel that a black guy ruling over some kind of brainwashed harem is racist, then that's your right (I admit I'm somewhat inclined to agree with you) and I encourage you to look for other supporters on the matter, as more people will likely mean a wider reaction from Bioware.

[masterthief]

Anyroad2 wrote...

masterthief wrote...

You're missing the point.  People aren't angry because she isn't able to access technology that doesn't exist yet--should she choose to--people are angry because she is being handled like an utter joke and the PC/Tallis both are visibly uncomfortable by her mere presence (or hitting on Hawke).   In Thedas, a fictional society that has already established there is considerably less of a stigma against homosexuality/bisexuality, it's still apparently okay to be uncomfortable by a trans* sex worker doing things like speaking.    Again, SRS or lack thereof is irrelevant to the discussion at large.

There is nothing inherently bad about prostitution.  If that's what someone wants to do, then neither I or anyone else has any business judging their decision.  However, many trans* people are forced into sex work because they don't have any options other than giving cisgender folks Interesting Sex Experiences due to the discrimination they face.   Trans* folk don't exist outside of brothels whatsoever in Dragon Age II, and since that scene appears to be nothing but an unnecessary joke with a trans* character as a punchline when there is zero positive representation whatsoever in the rest of the game, then yeah, I'm angry.  

The thing is, you and others see this as a joke on trans*, but theres no evidence of that at all. Serendipity and Bran do business (this has apparently been established). Hawke and Tallis could just as easily be ucomfortable that Brann brought a prostitute to a high-class event. No one but the writers know.

There very well could be more trans* folk in DA2. If there are, theyre much less noticable than Serendipity is. Can't prove this right or wrong, its just a possibility.

Addendum, then:  There aren't any obviously or openly trans* characters outside of brothels.   There are, however, several obviously or openly trans* characters in brothels and nowhere else in the game. 

Better?

[Siansonea]

naledgeborn wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

You marches are organized, and your slogans written, by people like Xilizhra.

Someone's gonna be the brain of the operation, no? 

Sure laugh all you want. Don't have to prove anything. I traveled cross country to hear Louis Farrakhan and Betty Shabazz  speak among other promintent figures. I was there in DC in '95. What have all the countless whiners on BSN done other than post rants and complaints?

More than you might think. You might believe we have limited ourselves to expressing our views here on the BSN, but I can tell you I have personally visited Congresspeople to discuss matters that I care about, both on a state and national level. I volunteered with the campaign to elect Houston's first openly lesbian City Council member in the late 1990s. So put that in your pipe and smoke it. Just because you see what we post on the BSN doesn't mean you know everything there is to know about the extent of our individual efforts to effect social change. Don't assume.

So what that gives you and myself privelige in making demands of BW? I could write at 10 page post on why Jacob Taylor's loyalty mission is racist. Did I? No. Because I'm mature enough  to understand that BW is a company. That isn't owned by me. And that BW will do what it wants to do. I'm pretty sure that was proven with Dragon Age 2. However if they pull something like that again I won't get on the forums and rant about it. I'll address a letter to Casey Hudson himself and hopes it lands in his office in Edmonton or wherever.

I think social/political and other themes should be completely banned from BSN. Maybe that way they won't have to sift through all the spam in between actual game feedback.

So, the forums should be censored, to exclude people from expressing their concerns about the social implications of various game elements? REALLY? No one's holding a gun to your head making you read these threads, pal. You can always click the "next page" button, I don't think that's too great a sacrifice. There are threads to discuss thermal clips too, you'll find them if you keep on searching.

And if you want to write a treatise on the racial overtones of "Jacob: The Gift Of Greatness", you go right ahead. Knock yourself out. I fully support your efforts. If there's something about the game that sticks in your craw, you have a right to say something, and to discuss it with others who might feel similarly. You might even make some people think twice about something they never noticed before. That's a good thing.

[General User]

I'm confused (moreso than usual), is there an actual boycott (organized or otherwise) of the new DAII DLC being planned over this issue?

[masterthief]

General User wrote...

I'm confused (moreso than usual), is there an actual boycott (organized or otherwise) of the new DAII DLC being planned over this issue?

Not as far as I know, but if someone did organize it then I would participate.  I'm hesitant to buy it in the first place because I have better things to spend my money on than something that endorses transphobia.

But what I'm hoping more than anything is that one of the writers or so forth will see this and maybe either explain what was going on, rethink the situation, or put some serious thought into the fact that while it's awesome to acknowledge certain groups of people and push that a majority has no inherent right to game options over a minority, there's a pretty gross imbalance here. 

If that happens I'll probably change my mind on purchasing it, but that's just me.

[TastesLikeTNT]

General User wrote...

I'm confused (moreso than usual), is there an actual boycott (organized or otherwise) of the new DAII DLC being planned over this issue?

I don't think so. Not as far as I know, anyhow.

[CroGamer002]

General User wrote...

I'm confused (moreso than usual), is there an actual boycott (organized or otherwise) of the new DAII DLC being planned over this issue?

All I can say is, this is BSN.

[Sylvianus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Too emotional, too sensitive, for something anecdotal of a video game. Yes a video game, as part of an entertainment. There may be things you think of bad taste, but useless to sue a company video game for something anecdotally that lasts less than a minute and that is again anecdotal. Ignore it.

No one mentioned lawsuits, it would never work. We can, however, complain vehemently, and will do so.

This topic is proof that Bioware with its social considerations is a prisoner of its policy. Now every game content of Bioware is deemed offensive by each different group born of people. Bioware is not anymore a video game company here , but for many a political showcase of social problems that must advance the cause of one political group or another, which wants this or that, less or more.etc

Bioware is also being well supported and purchased from by that demographic, many of whom would never look at a game without such diverse and often well-done protagonists and romance choices. It's by no means a mistake to have done that; this is a chance for a valuable learning experience for Bioware.

1-  Given everything Bioware has done, I find particularly unpleasant and inappropriate to condemn the company in mind so open. You forget yourself. You forget that it is a business too. This is not the role of BioWare to play the role of political parties to advance your causes. So let's stop blaming Bioware politically, when something does not suit you.I find it absolutely scandalous and inacceptable to try to create a political storm for game content.

2 - But Bioware opened its games, and it's cool. This is not what I reproach. That to want to respond to social causes and political considerations out of the game that condemn it. Because the shifts and the consequences of considerations out of the game also mixes to the creation of their game. What can interfere. And that is not good at all.

No one focuses anymore on the gameplay, but on the political form; As long as the political formalities are respected ( but each has as well its opinion, ), no one complains, so never. Bioware can not do anything without that a content is deemed offensive. now there are too many, or not enought, why there is not strict equality here, why there is an overrepresentation there, etc etc.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 09 octobre 2011 - 08:08 .

[ademska]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Well, I haven't played Mark of the Assassin yet. But I get the impression from DA2's main game that Serendipity is very successful and popular, and that she/he takes a great deal of pride/pleasure in the job. I'd call that a reasonably positive potrayal.

Now I'm curious to see how exactly Tallis (a fellow Rogue, no less) reacts to it.

here you go. no real spoilers.

her (and sarcastic!hawke's) reaction is what makes it particularly egregious. serendipity herself is not the primary problem.

Modifié par ademska, 09 octobre 2011 - 08:10 .

[aries1001]

I have now seen the clip (link above) more than 5 times.....and yes, it can be seen as a BW is out to make a joke (wittingly or unwittingly) on the expense of the transgendered. If you go to 0:30 minute, Hawke has just said 'And everybody seem to be so upper class' thus acknowledging Serendipity as 'upper class' e.g. on the same level as Brann (and the other nobles).

Tallis's 'akward' comments could mean different things; it could ne directed at herself because she thought Serendipity was a women, untill she(he?) spoke, it could be seen as her being uncomfortable because Brann took a prostitute to such a high level social event where probably only nobles attend.
Or maybe Tallis is uncomfortable because Serendipity is an elf? And she doesn't believe elves should be prostitutes to human nobles? Or maybe she knows Serendipity from another place...?

As for the player choosing Hawke's sarcastic option, does it really come to player as a surprise that Hawke will say all things sarcastic if such an option is chosen?

As for if it needed to be Serendipity, yes I believe it did. Maybe Serendipity plays a larger part in Mask of the Assasin than we know up front?

[naledgeborn]

Siansonea II wrote...

So, the forums should be censored, to exclude people from expressing their concerns about the social implications of various game elements?

Yes because at the end of the day it's a ****ing videogame forum. With thermal clips, and mana, and dragons, and omnitools and... Not a sociopoltical forum about captialism, and liberalism, and feminism, and fundamentalism, and communism, and...

Modifié par naledgeborn, 09 octobre 2011 - 08:13 .

[masterthief]

naledgeborn wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

So, the forums should be censored, to exclude people from expressing their concerns about the social implications of various game elements?

Yes because at the end of the day it's a ****ing videogame forum. With thermal clips, and mana, and dragons, and omnitools and... Not a sociopoltical forum about captialism, and liberalism, and feminism, and fundamentalism, and communism, and...

do you really not see how the viewpoints of real people re: those issues tie into video games, though?  media itself was not just magically created by  a race of aliens that know absolutely nothing about human society.  it didn't pop up out of nowhere.

discussing a real life issue reflected in a video game is still discussing something in a video game, therefore it still belongs on a video game forum.

[Anyroad2]

masterthief wrote...

Addendum, then:  There aren't any obviously or openly trans* characters outside of brothels.   There are, however, several obviously or openly trans* characters in brothels and nowhere else in the game. 

Better?

I wasnt expecting you to go back and fix what you posted. That wasnt my goal.  Its about looking for things and not looking for things.

If you're looking to get offended, you probably will be whether or not that was the goal or the offender or not. Theres noting in the scene that says its a joke on trans* or that its a joke at all. As I've said many times... the uncomfortable reaction may be there because its Bran (a jerkface) and Serendipity who is a prostitute and was brought to a high-class event by Bran. Or heck, it may even be because Serendipity is hitting on Hawke while with Bran. We certainly dont know.

If you're only looking for negative representation, then its pretty likely that youll find it. For instance... people complained about Wade and Herren, but I didnt find anything wrong about them. Theres no proof that theyre gay or lovers or anything other than just business partners (from what I recall). Even if they were, I didnt see any joke made about them.

Modifié par Anyroad2, 09 octobre 2011 - 08:18 .

[HK-90210]

OK, I can see why some might take offense to the clip in question, but from my point of view, that is a positive portrayal of a transgender person.

Serendipity seems to be perfectly at ease with who she is, and what she identifies herself as. She has come to terms with herself, and doesn't give a **** that Hawke and Tallis are a bit weirded out. Why is this bad? In my opinion, it's a healthier condition than being insecure and self-rightious about it. That would jusk make her unlikable as a character. Hardly a positive portrayal.

There's no denying that Serendipity is being used as the butt of a joke. And I get that that can be a bit offensive. But how many times is Isabella's promiscuity used for comic effect? Or Varric's shortness? Granted, both of those characters are featured fully, and given plenty of opprotunity to show other sides of their characters, unlike Serendipity. But regardless, just being part of a joke is not necesarily a bad thing.

I support transgender pride, Serendipity-style.

[rak72]

Anyroad2 wrote...

masterthief wrote...

Addendum, then:  There aren't any obviously or openly trans* characters outside of brothels.   There are, however, several obviously or openly trans* characters in brothels and nowhere else in the game. 

Better?

I wasnt expecting you to go back and fix what you posted. That wasnt my goal.  Its about looking for things and not looking for things.

If you're looking to get offended, you probably will be whether or not that was the goal or the offender or not. Theres noting in the scene that says its a joke on trans* or that its a joke at all. As I've said many times... the uncomfortable reaction may be there because its Bran (a jerkface) and Serendipity who is a prostitute and was brought to a high-class event by Bran.

If you're only looking for negative representation, then its pretty likely that youll find it. For instance... people complained about Wade and Herren, but I didnt find anything wrong about them. Theres no proof that theyre gay or lovers or anything other than just business partners (from what I recall). Even if they were, I didnt see any joke made about them.

Where was this about them being buisness partners?

[ademska]

we're on a new page, so i'll say it again:

some of you don't see the joke as particularly heinous. this is fine.

some of us do. the person who posted the video has played the dlc in its entirety, and she and several others who have also completed it have said that even with full context, the scene and the joke are completely unnecessary.

there is no reason for it to be in the game at all.

so why, then, does anyone find it worthwhile to defend it? if you're not personally offended, but you know other people are, what possible motivation could you have to tell those who were hurt by it to shut up?