497 réponses à ce sujet

[naledgeborn]

masterthief wrote...

do you really not see how the viewpoints of real people re: those issues tie into video games, though?  media itself was not just magically created by  a race of aliens that know absolutely nothing about human society.  it didn't pop up out of nowhere.

discussing a real life issue reflected in a video game is still discussing something in a video game, therefore it still belongs on a video game forum.

I do. But when RL politics are made into an issue people tend to forget that they were talking about Quarians and Elves. And the cycle starts all over again. 

I'd rather BSN be relegated to talking about alien/fantasy politics. A lot less messy. Easier for the developers to follow. A lot more benefical to BW than "fighting the power" online.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 09 octobre 2011 - 08:22 .

[Anyroad2]

rak72 wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

masterthief wrote...

Addendum, then:  There aren't any obviously or openly trans* characters outside of brothels.   There are, however, several obviously or openly trans* characters in brothels and nowhere else in the game. 

Better?

I wasnt expecting you to go back and fix what you posted. That wasnt my goal.  Its about looking for things and not looking for things.

If you're looking to get offended, you probably will be whether or not that was the goal or the offender or not. Theres noting in the scene that says its a joke on trans* or that its a joke at all. As I've said many times... the uncomfortable reaction may be there because its Bran (a jerkface) and Serendipity who is a prostitute and was brought to a high-class event by Bran.

If you're only looking for negative representation, then its pretty likely that youll find it. For instance... people complained about Wade and Herren, but I didnt find anything wrong about them. Theres no proof that theyre gay or lovers or anything other than just business partners (from what I recall). Even if they were, I didnt see any joke made about them.

Where was this about them being buisness partners?

Wade makes the equipment and Herren manages the business. Without one the other has no job. Partners.

[masterthief]

Anyroad2 wrote...

masterthief wrote...

Addendum, then:  There aren't any obviously or openly trans* characters outside of brothels.   There are, however, several obviously or openly trans* characters in brothels and nowhere else in the game. 

Better?

I wasnt expecting you to go back and fix what you posted. That wasnt my goal.  Its about looking for things and not looking for things.

If you're looking to get offended, you probably will be whether or not that was the goal or the offender or not. Theres noting in the scene that says its a joke on trans* or that its a joke at all. As I've said many times... the uncomfortable reaction may be there because its Bran (a jerkface) and Serendipity who is a prostitute and was brought to a high-class event by Bran.

If you're only looking for negative representation, then its pretty likely that youll find it. For instance... people complained about Wade and Herren, but I didnt find anything wrong about them. Theres no proof that theyre gay or lovers or anything other than just business partners (from what I recall). Even if they were, I didnt see any joke made about them.

Emphasis mine.

You are somehow the authority on what is or isn't offensive to other people, then?    Not once have I said that anyone should or shouldn't be offended--just that I am.  The whole, "well I don't see anything wrong with it, so you're just looking for a problem," viewpoint is sketchy.  Let me tell you something, it doesn't feel pleasant to feel ostracized.  No one actively looks to be or wants to be, not only considering it feels like ****, but because people are quick to jump at you and dismiss your concerns by telling you to calm down over and over.   People who deal with an issue on a regular basis in their lives tend to be more aware of an issue than people who don't, just because they have to deal with it.  I'm not going to say that you do or don't, because I don't know and it's not my business one way or another, but either way, something that one person sees as not a problem will inevitably be a problem to someone else.  No group of people is a monolith.

As I've said, I'd like to hear what a writer has to say about this.  I see it how I see it, you see it how you see it.   That doesn't change that there isn't any positive representation of trans* people in the game, while there is a load of both positive and negative cisgender characters.

[whykikyouwhy]

naledgeborn wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

So, the forums should be censored, to exclude people from expressing their concerns about the social implications of various game elements?

Yes because at the end of the day it's a ****ing videogame forum. With thermal clips, and mana, and dragons, and omnitools and... Not a sociopoltical forum about captialism, and liberalism, and feminism, and fundamentalism, and communism, and...

Perhaps you misinterpretted my earlier post. I feel that players have the right to be concerned about the content of their games. Yes, we are talking about a fantasy game here, that has some reflection, however hazy, of our own world. And if there is material within a game that the players believe to be offensive and inappropriate, then by all means, they have the right to voice their concerns.

I personally would not want to play a game that is riddled with misogyny or racism (to cite only two examples of what I don't want to see in a game) - so if a gaming company that has gone to great lengths to be inclusive and conscientious about its content suddenly added something that seemed to counter that stance (and was, as with my example, misogynistic or racist), I see no reason why concerns should not be voiced.

We each come to the table, or the PC/console/etc, with our life experiences - with our beliefs and backgrounds. We all hope for a game that is positive and fun and simply delightful. And we also hope for a game that reflects ourselves in some capacity, and does so in a positive manner.

So nalegdeborn, I really don't see the issue with concerns being voiced. If you want to look at it in the larger context of how a game measures up against the issues plaguing the world, then I would think that you could at least appreciate that even the smallest step, the smallest change made, is a step forward. It may not amount to much initially, but it's progression, slow but steady.

[HK-90210]

ademska wrote...

the person who posted the video has played the dlc in its entirety, and she and several others who have also completed it have said that even with full context, the scene and the joke are completely unnecessary.

there is no reason for it to be in the game at all.

so why, then, does anyone find it worthwhile to defend it? if you're not personally offended, but you know other people are, what possible motivation could you have to tell those who were hurt by it to shut up?

Jokes are, by their very nature, completely unnesesary. I found the joke rather humourous, and I feel that I should defend it, since it made my laugh.

[rak72]

Anyroad2 wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

masterthief wrote...

Addendum, then:  There aren't any obviously or openly trans* characters outside of brothels.   There are, however, several obviously or openly trans* characters in brothels and nowhere else in the game. 

Better?

I wasnt expecting you to go back and fix what you posted. That wasnt my goal.  Its about looking for things and not looking for things.

If you're looking to get offended, you probably will be whether or not that was the goal or the offender or not. Theres noting in the scene that says its a joke on trans* or that its a joke at all. As I've said many times... the uncomfortable reaction may be there because its Bran (a jerkface) and Serendipity who is a prostitute and was brought to a high-class event by Bran.

If you're only looking for negative representation, then its pretty likely that youll find it. For instance... people complained about Wade and Herren, but I didnt find anything wrong about them. Theres no proof that theyre gay or lovers or anything other than just business partners (from what I recall). Even if they were, I didnt see any joke made about them.

Where was this about them being buisness partners?

Wade makes the equipment and Herren manages the business. Without one the other has no job. Partners.

Oh, sorry - I thought you were saying Bran & Serendipity were buisness partners. 

I need glasses

Modifié par rak72, 09 octobre 2011 - 08:24 .

[aries1001]

As for Wade and Herren (in DA:O) being business partners, there's a banter between that goes somethig like this: Herren (I think it is?) moans about how he has no time now to really finish things and embelish things like in the old days, taking forever (meaning weeks months and sometimes years!) to finish armours. Wade then says something about that he, Herren, that is, should be lucky that wade found him, Herren, that is - at least now he has roof over his head and get three meals a day. Won't stop Herren from complaining. Oh, and the devs. did confirm that Wade and Herren are gay. (I think Gaider did it n one of the threads in the DA:O forums).

As for the transgendered Serendipity, she/he? seem fine with who she is, the joke seems to be on Tallis first, and then on Hawke, as they are the ones being uncomfortable with who Serendipity is.

[masterthief]

naledgeborn wrote...

masterthief wrote...

do you really not see how the viewpoints of real people re: those issues tie into video games, though?  media itself was not just magically created by  a race of aliens that know absolutely nothing about human society.  it didn't pop up out of nowhere.

discussing a real life issue reflected in a video game is still discussing something in a video game, therefore it still belongs on a video game forum.

I do. But when RL politics are made into an issue people tend to forget that they were talking about Quarians and Elves. And the cycle starts all over again. 

I'd rather BSN be relegated to talking about alien/fantasy politics. A lot less messy. Easier for the developers to follow. A lot more benefical to BW than "fighting the power" online.

The thing is though, the staff at Bioware has intentionally modeled a fair amount of alien/fantasy politics/races/struggles/etc off of real world politics/races/struggles/etc.   Personally, I think this is awesome.  But it's also bound to stir up discussion about the real world parallels and implications of a game being played by real people.

You're also operating under the assumption that people who have something negative to say about this don't do anything but discuss issues online, or on BSN.    There's no point in trying to prove or discuss anything otherwise, considering I could also say I was a magic unicorn with the power of flight that likes to drop imaginary deuces on politicians, and outside of the fact that's a deliberately exaggerated example, no one could prove/disprove anything.

[Mary Kirby]

To the OP and others offended by this scene:

I am deeply sorry. It wasn't my intent to make Serendipity the punchline of that conversation or to depict her in a negative light. But my intent as the writer doesn't matter. What I was trying to do failed, and ultimately, what came across to you was hurtful, and that does matter. And for that, I cannot apologize enough. Again, I'm very sorry.

[tmp7704]

Hmm i was under impression Serendipity was drag queen kind of performer rather than actual trans person. If just because i can't quite imagine Mr.Gaider would approve of such mockery of any sexual identity.

re: Wade & Herren, they were confirmed as gay couple by Mr.Gaider in one of forum threads, i believe.

[Siansonea]

naledgeborn wrote...

masterthief wrote...

do you really not see how the viewpoints of real people re: those issues tie into video games, though?  media itself was not just magically created by  a race of aliens that know absolutely nothing about human society.  it didn't pop up out of nowhere.

discussing a real life issue reflected in a video game is still discussing something in a video game, therefore it still belongs on a video game forum.

I do. But when RL politics are made into an issue people tend to forget that they were talking about Quarians and Elves. And the cycle starts all over again. 

I'd rather BSN be relegated to talking about alien/fantasy politics. A lot less messy. Easier for the developers to follow. A lot more benefical to BW than "fighting the power" online.

And yet here YOU are, fighting alongside everyone on the other side for your right to...talk about thermal clips without having to click the "next page" button...

Like it or not, some things in the real world intrude on our fantasy game. And if it doesn't affect you—other than to force you to click the "next page" button—why complain about it?

[naledgeborn]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

So, the forums should be censored, to exclude people from expressing their concerns about the social implications of various game elements?

Yes because at the end of the day it's a ****ing videogame forum. With thermal clips, and mana, and dragons, and omnitools and... Not a sociopoltical forum about captialism, and liberalism, and feminism, and fundamentalism, and communism, and...

Perhaps you misinterpretted my earlier post. I feel that players have the right to be concerned about the content of their games. Yes, we are talking about a fantasy game here, that has some reflection, however hazy, of our own world. And if there is material within a game that the players believe to be offensive and inappropriate, then by all means, they have the right to voice their concerns.

I personally would not want to play a game that is riddled with misogyny or racism (to cite only two examples of what I don't want to see in a game) - so if a gaming company that has gone to great lengths to be inclusive and conscientious about its content suddenly added something that seemed to counter that stance (and was, as with my example, misogynistic or racist), I see no reason why concerns should not be voiced.

We each come to the table, or the PC/console/etc, with our life experiences - with our beliefs and backgrounds. We all hope for a game that is positive and fun and simply delightful. And we also hope for a game that reflects ourselves in some capacity, and does so in a positive manner.

So nalegdeborn, I really don't see the issue with concerns being voiced. If you want to look at it in the larger context of how a game measures up against the issues plaguing the world, then I would think that you could at least appreciate that even the smallest step, the smallest change made, is a step forward. It may not amount to much initially, but it's progression, slow but steady.

Well then at the very least they could make a sub forum about this sort of stuff. I admit I might even be tempted to write a topic or two about my previous example. But I thnk the water should be seperated from the oil.

Gaming stuff should go in one section. And how said gaming offends or accuratley (mis)represents a group in another. And everybody has a different threshold of offense. Hell there can be another trans* poster laughing at how sensitive the original poster came across. These sort of topics actually detract from making better future gaming experiences IMO.

[Siansonea]

Mary Kirby wrote...

To the OP and others offended by this scene:

I am deeply sorry. It wasn't my intent to make Serendipity the punchline of that conversation or to depict her in a negative light. But my intent as the writer doesn't matter. What I was trying to do failed, and ultimately, what came across to you was hurtful, and that does matter. And for that, I cannot apologize enough. Again, I'm very sorry.

I think your intent as the writer does matter. Maybe if you gave us some context, your thoughts when you were writing the scene, it might cast the whole thing in a new light.

[Xilizhra]

Mary Kirby wrote...

To the OP and others offended by this scene:

I am deeply sorry. It wasn't my intent to make Serendipity the punchline of that conversation or to depict her in a negative light. But my intent as the writer doesn't matter. What I was trying to do failed, and ultimately, what came across to you was hurtful, and that does matter. And for that, I cannot apologize enough. Again, I'm very sorry.

Well, that worked out well enough. Thank you.

I'll concede that the issue is a tricky one, I believe you when you say you didn't mean anything, and I commend you for bothering to include anyone transgendered at all, presentation issues aside. Now then, we can all move on and do better next time.

I think your intent as the writer does matter. Maybe if you gave us some context, your thoughts when you were writing the scene, it might cast the whole thing in a new light.

Also that.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 09 octobre 2011 - 08:32 .

[Sylvianus]

ademska wrote...
so why, then, does anyone find it worthwhile to defend it? if you're not personally offended, but you know other people are, what possible motivation could you have to tell those who were hurt by it to shut up?

Actually, The real problem is the trivialization of such cases. After everyone coming from different political groups, ethnic, or religious, will find that there is something wrong and it's offensive. Some reject the socialization of a video game forum, and social considerations are attempting to meddle in the development of a video game, direct line, conduct, rules and limits, whatever the political line. Creativity must overcome that. Maybe it's in bad taste for many, offensive to some, but there will always be in video games.

They are not there to think about what kind of thing in particular, but to produce the best possible offer the best entertainment, playing a bit in all areas for entertaining.

The main fear is that Bioware does not dare do anything later, as sandwiched between considerations out of the game and political lines that have nothing to do with the creation of the game.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 09 octobre 2011 - 08:34 .

[mousestalker]

Mary Kirby wrote...

To the OP and others offended by this scene:

I am deeply sorry. It wasn't my intent to make Serendipity the punchline of that conversation or to depict her in a negative light. But my intent as the writer doesn't matter. What I was trying to do failed, and ultimately, what came across to you was hurtful, and that does matter. And for that, I cannot apologize enough. Again, I'm very sorry.

That was very gracious.

[masterthief]

Mary Kirby wrote...

To the OP and others offended by this scene:

I am deeply sorry. It wasn't my intent to make Serendipity the punchline of that conversation or to depict her in a negative light. But my intent as the writer doesn't matter. What I was trying to do failed, and ultimately, what came across to you was hurtful, and that does matter. And for that, I cannot apologize enough. Again, I'm very sorry.

Thank you so, so much for this.

[naledgeborn]

Siansonea II wrote...

Like it or not, some things in the real world intrude on our fantasy game. And if it doesn't affect you—other than to force you to click the "next page" button—why complain about it?

naledgeborn wrote...

These sort of topics actually detract from making better future gaming experiences IMO.

[Siansonea]

naledgeborn wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Like it or not, some things in the real world intrude on our fantasy game. And if it doesn't affect you—other than to force you to click the "next page" button—why complain about it?

naledgeborn wrote...

These sort of topics actually detract from making better future gaming experiences IMO.

Yeah, well, that's just your opinion, man.

[aries1001]

@ Mary Kirby:

What did you and the writing team want to convey with having Serendipity at the party with Bran.
What was the intent when writing this scene?

As for racism and misogyne in games (or movies). Do you not watch John Wayne movies or Mad Men (a tv-show)? Do you not play Mass Effect....or the Witcher....or Dragon Age....the Dalish elves are clearly a bit (or a lot) racist towards humans as humans are racist towards elves, both city elves and Dalish elves. And by racist, I mean speaking ill of them, using racial slurs and discriminating against them.
Since this is no-spoiler forum I just tell you that when my character met the Dalish in DA2, they weren't to happy....

[ademska]

Mary Kirby wrote...

To the OP and others offended by this scene:

I am deeply sorry. It wasn't my intent to make Serendipity the punchline of that conversation or to depict her in a negative light. But my intent as the writer doesn't matter. What I was trying to do failed, and ultimately, what came across to you was hurtful, and that does matter. And for that, I cannot apologize enough. Again, I'm very sorry.

i can't speak for the OP, but thank you so, so much for your sincere apology, and for your understanding and consideration of others' feelings

[naledgeborn]

But seriously there needs to be sub-forum for this sort of stuff. The controversial topics are usually at the top of a page with a little fire icon next to it. So when the next ingenious bastard fan-boy/girl spends time posting a brilliant mechanic idea it easily gets overlooked.

[FaeQueenCory]

Mary Kirby wrote...

To the OP and others offended by this scene:

I am deeply sorry. It wasn't my intent to make Serendipity the punchline of that conversation or to depict her in a negative light. But my intent as the writer doesn't matter. What I was trying to do failed, and ultimately, what came across to you was hurtful, and that does matter. And for that, I cannot apologize enough. Again, I'm very sorry.

This is very kind of you, Ms. Kirby.
I'm just curious though, was your intent to emulate "Trumpet" from Pricilla Queen of the Desert? Because, to me, that's what it reminded me of and felt like.

Though I can definitely see how people could be offended... Very easily...

[TastesLikeTNT]

Mary Kirby wrote...

To the OP and others offended by this scene:

I am deeply sorry. It wasn't my intent to make Serendipity the punchline of that conversation or to depict her in a negative light. But my intent as the writer doesn't matter. What I was trying to do failed, and ultimately, what came across to you was hurtful, and that does matter. And for that, I cannot apologize enough. Again, I'm very sorry.

That was very nice of you, Mary  And brave. This is a tricky issue to navigate, to be sure.

Modifié par TastesLikeTNT, 09 octobre 2011 - 09:15 .

[Sylvianus]

aries1001 wrote...

As for racism and misogyne in games (or movies). Do you not watch John Wayne movies or Mad Men (a tv-show)? Do you not play Mass Effect....or the Witcher....or Dragon Age....the Dalish elves are clearly a bit (or a lot) racist towards humans as humans are racist towards elves, both city elves and Dalish elves. And by racist, I mean speaking ill of them, using racial slurs and discriminating against them.
Since this is no-spoiler forum I just tell you that when my character met the Dalish in DA2, they weren't to happy....

Personally,I hate racism in real life, but if they withdraw the racism theme ( dalish, humans, etc ) in their games because of this kind of considerations out of game, this is especially ridiculous and their games will be without substance.

A game without promotions conflicting feelings is a game that may not raise real issues and go deeper into its world and to diversify its universe.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 09 octobre 2011 - 08:40 .