497 réponses à ce sujet

[Anyroad2]

masterthief wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

I wasnt expecting you to go back and fix what you posted. That wasnt my goal.  Its about looking for things and not looking for things.

If you're looking to get offended, you probably will be whether or not that was the goal or the offender or not. Theres noting in the scene that says its a joke on trans* or that its a joke at all. As I've said many times... the uncomfortable reaction may be there because its Bran (a jerkface) and Serendipity who is a prostitute and was brought to a high-class event by Bran.

If you're only looking for negative representation, then its pretty likely that youll find it. For instance... people complained about Wade and Herren, but I didnt find anything wrong about them. Theres no proof that theyre gay or lovers or anything other than just business partners (from what I recall). Even if they were, I didnt see any joke made about them.

Emphasis mine.

You are somehow the authority on what is or isn't offensive to other people, then?    Not once have I said that anyone should or shouldn't be offended--just that I am.  The whole, "well I don't see anything wrong with it, so you're just looking for a problem," viewpoint is sketchy.  Let me tell you something, it doesn't feel pleasant to feel ostracized.  No one actively looks to be or wants to be, not only considering it feels like ****, but because people are quick to jump at you and dismiss your concerns by telling you to calm down over and over.   People who deal with an issue on a regular basis in their lives tend to be more aware of an issue than people who don't, just because they have to deal with it.  I'm not going to say that you do or don't, because I don't know and it's not my business one way or another, but either way, something that one person sees as not a problem will inevitably be a problem to someone else.  No group of people is a monolith.

As I've said, I'd like to hear what a writer has to say about this.  I see it how I see it, you see it how you see it.   That doesn't change that there isn't any positive representation of trans* people in the game, while there is a load of both positive and negative cisgender characters.

I dont think I said anything about what people should be offended over, just that there are other posibilities then what people assume to be the stone cold truth about the scene. In fact I'm pretty sure that I stated that I feel bad that people are feeling that theyre being the butt of the joke here and that I understand the situation.

I'm trying to get people to see things how I do, because its possible that thats the way the writers intended it to be seen (just as its possible that they intended to jab at trans* folks).

Again, there could be possitive representation of trans* people. As someone posted before... Serendipity seems to be popular, very profitable at her profession, and proud of herself. Serendipity doesnt change the way she is, or does she appoligize when Hawke and Tallis react to her being at the event. It all depends on how you look at it.

Modifié par Anyroad2, 09 octobre 2011 - 08:44 .

[ddv.rsa]

I'm amazed at how sensitive Americans are. In South Africa gay women are often subject to "corrective rape", but you guys whine about a joke. People are determined to look for problems.

[slimgrin]

To the OP: not every form of creative expression is required to meet a quota. Let the creators do what they want without having to appease the widest possible audience.

[whalewhisker]

I didn't think it was that bad! But then I saw that a ton of you were really really bothered by it, so now I feel a bit bad. :/

[Firky]

Courageous post.

That video seems a little bizarre to me, because I'm generally in the "wow, Dragon Age really celebrates sexuality" camp. Maybe that scene feels better in a wider context. (I don't know, just saying.) 

And, yeah Edwin. I remember thinking that was pretty funny. Perhaps because he was Edwin; a well developed character, and something "ludicrous" happening to him vaguelly made more sense than a conversation with an elf we don't know. But I wasn't turned on to gender issues at all back then. Maybe it was offensive to people. Hopefully, we're moving in the right direction though.

MsKehoe wrote...
I have anxiety and depression which makes it hard for me to leave the house unless it is for therapy or classes. When I am at home, I'm drawing, I'm surfing the net, and I'm playing video games. Video games have been an outlet for me all my life and roleplaying games especially were helpful in letting me create an alter-ego who can be something more heroic or productive than I can ever be.

That sounds like me at 20, only replace art with music. And I'm not gay, but I had different and difficult experience that bumped up against societal norms. 15 years later, I'm having a happy life. Happy as anyone else, anyway. Please don't give up on that. It's totally possible.


Also, I've seen this - "Nobody has the right not to be offended" around a bit lately, but I genuinely don't understand the sentence. Like "nobody" as in "this is a blanket statement for us all; everyone" - "has the right" as in "legitimately, and always claim to" ...... what exactly? Like, I can't rephrase it. "Everyone, should not be able to legitimately claim, to ... not be offended." Why would anyone want to or be prevented from legitimately claiming to not be offended by nothing? Like, I have white skin, therefore no-one's ever called me a word I find incredibly offensive. I'm not offended by that, because nothing happened, and I claim that right and you can't stop me being not offended? Clearly, I don't understand the concept. Huh?

Modifié par Firky, 09 octobre 2011 - 09:37 .

[Xilizhra]

ddv.rsa wrote...

I'm amazed at how sensitive Americans are. In South Africa gay women are often subject to "corrective rape", but you guys whine about a joke. People are determined to look for problems.

Well, we don't have that here. Probably the reason fewer people complain about it here is inadequate media representation.

[Seagloom]

Mary Kirby wrote...

To the OP and others offended by this scene:

I am deeply sorry. It wasn't my intent to make Serendipity the punchline of that conversation or to depict her in a negative light. But my intent as the writer doesn't matter. What I was trying to do failed, and ultimately, what came across to you was hurtful, and that does matter. And for that, I cannot apologize enough. Again, I'm very sorry.

Thank you for the apology. I must admit, I have mixed feelings about this despite your stating it was unintended. I suppose I still feel too emotionally raw over it. The apology is definitely appreciated, though. It made me feel a lot better.

[Firky]

Mary Kirby wrote...

To the OP and others offended by this scene:

I am deeply sorry. It wasn't my intent to make Serendipity the punchline of that conversation or to depict her in a negative light. But my intent as the writer doesn't matter. What I was trying to do failed, and ultimately, what came across to you was hurtful, and that does matter. And for that, I cannot apologize enough. Again, I'm very sorry.

Yikes. Also courageous.

Thank goodness lots of different people have the guts to talk about these issues, these days.

[Blastback]

slimgrin wrote...

To the OP: not every form of creative expression is required to meet a quota. Let the creators do what they want without having to appease the widest possible audience.

But if they are going to include a minority that many people treat negativly, then they should give a balanced portrayal.  And Bioware has yet to portray transsexuals as anything but punchlines.  Would it be acceptable if Bioware only included gays or blacks in simaler roles?  Again, if transexuals are going to appear, then there should be some shown as more than just jokes or prostitutes.

That said, major props to Ms. Kirby for coming foward and apologising the way she did. 

[slimgrin]

Blastback wrote...

But if they are going to include a minority that many people treat negativly, then they should give a balanced portrayal.   

No, they don't have to do anything of the sort. It's their creation and it doesn't have to conform to modern societal conventions. Kirby actually apologizing? Weak. There is no faster way to neuter artistic experssion than this nonsense.

Modifié par slimgrin, 09 octobre 2011 - 09:01 .

[Xilizhra]

slimgrin wrote...

Blastback wrote...

But if they are going to include a minority that many people treat negativly, then they should give a balanced portrayal.   

No, they don't have to do anything of the sort. It's their creation and it doesn't have to conform to modern societal conventions. Kirby actually apologizing? Weak. There is no faster way to neuter artistic experssion than this nonsense.

Oh, like one stupid joke is some incredible example of artistic expression.

[tmp7704]

slimgrin wrote...

Kirby actually apologizing? Weak. There is no faster way to neuter artistic experssion than this nonsense.

The apology is for unintended outcome which had nothing to do with actual intended artistic expression of that scene.

[slimgrin]

Xilizhra wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Blastback wrote...

But if they are going to include a minority that many people treat negativly, then they should give a balanced portrayal.   

No, they don't have to do anything of the sort. It's their creation and it doesn't have to conform to modern societal conventions. Kirby actually apologizing? Weak. There is no faster way to neuter artistic experssion than this nonsense.

Oh, like one stupid joke is some incredible example of artistic expression.

It's their right, get over it. I would never demand them to conform to my conception of  'fair'.

[Xilizhra]

slimgrin wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Blastback wrote...

But if they are going to include a minority that many people treat negativly, then they should give a balanced portrayal.   

No, they don't have to do anything of the sort. It's their creation and it doesn't have to conform to modern societal conventions. Kirby actually apologizing? Weak. There is no faster way to neuter artistic experssion than this nonsense.

Oh, like one stupid joke is some incredible example of artistic expression.

It's their right, get over it. I would never demand them to conform to my conception of  'fair'.

It is indeed their right. It's our right to respond how we choose.

[Teddie Sage]

@Mary Kirby: There is still a lot of time to remove this scene from the official download. Seriously, I am offended by this scene. I've been supporting transgenders ever since I found out about my own sexuality. Many will be offended by this and I'm pretty sure the GLAAD wouldn't agree, because a branch of them are working for transgenders, I heard.

Modifié par Teddie Sage, 09 octobre 2011 - 09:09 .

[slimgrin]

Ferris95 wrote...

All fine and well for you then, other people would prefer a product that doesn't relegate their existence to shock humor.

God forbid they create their own universe, where prejiduces don't conveniently mirror our own.

Modifié par slimgrin, 09 octobre 2011 - 09:10 .

[tmp7704]

Teddie Sage wrote...

@Mary Kirby: There is still a lot of time to remove this scene from the official download.

Changes to content intended for consoles mean the content has to undergo repeated approval process which can last weeks.

[R0vena]

I personally thought it was a joke on Dr. Girlfriend's ( from The Venture Brothers) expense, actually, not anything more serious.

[tmp7704]

slimgrin wrote...

God forbid they create their own universe, where prejiduces don't conveniently mirror our own.

The issue is opposite, actually -- it's about how the characters in fictional universe do conveniently mirror prejudices of our own. (or at least get perceived as such)

[Sylvianus]

slimgrin wrote...

Blastback wrote...

But if they are going to include a minority that many people treat negativly, then they should give a balanced portrayal.   

No, they don't have to do anything of the sort. It's their creation and it doesn't have to conform to modern societal conventions. Kirby actually apologizing? Weak. There is no faster way to neuter artistic experssion than this nonsense.

Well, I think it's weak too, and how she did it does not reassure me about its ability to manage the artistic ideas that come to her the next time and other jokes without her worrying about a possible reaction of a small minority of fans outraged.. But that's her decision.

In any case,  For me this is confirmation that Bioware has problems with his management of the creation of its games. Unable to get out of this quagmire in which he started. Now for every game released, everything will be scrutinized, and each content which will be unpleasant for a group will be denounced. Every expectation, every requirement will be greater than the last, in the next game. Each limit will be extended and dictate what they can do or not. Plus they will abandon the field, the more they will be afraid. but that's their problem, and these are the only ones who can solve it. For me the discussion is over.

[ademska]

Sylvianus wrote...

Well, I think it's weak too, and how she did it does not reassure me about its ability to manage the artistic ideas that come to her the next time and other jokes without her worrying about a possible reaction of a small minority of fans outraged.. But that's her decision.

In any case,  For me this is confirmation that Bioware has problems with his management of the creation of its games. Unable to get out of this quagmire in which he started. Now for every game released, everything will be scrutinized, and each content which will be unpleasant for a group will be denounced. Every expectation, every requirement will be greater than the last, in the next game. Each limit will be extended and dictate what they can do or not. Plus they will abandon the field, the more they will be afraid. but that's their problem, and these are the only ones who can solve it. For me the discussion is over.

...you do know the snowball effect is a logical fallacy, don't you?