497 réponses à ce sujet

[Pacifien]

I do believe the writers should have to freedom to make whatever joke they want. I also believe it is perfectly okay for someone to then say why they didn't appreciate the joke and how that joke personally affected them. And it's unfair to tell someone not to take it personally because if the joke is about transexuality and you are a transexual, how do you not take that personally?

In any case, it's up to the writer to either take that criticism to heart and realize they didn't want to make someone personally feel bad or decide politically incorrect humor is the price some people must pay. From the looks of it, Mary Kirby genuinely feels the former.

[slimgrin]

esper wrote...


You are allowed to say everything you want, but you better be prepared to apologize if you step over the line or accept the fact that you made enemies because not everyone has to accept you as funny. 

I'm not trying to be funny. I've championed a gay character from the beginning actually. But Bioware doesn't have the balls for that either.

[Seagloom]

slimgrin wrote...

Where the hell is Seagloom? Has she commented on this?

~edit~ there she is..

Yeah. I'm not interested in a protracted debate, so I will leave it at this post. We clearly disagree on this one, and this issue is too complex to hash out in a few swift forum posts. Suffice it to say I think it is very difficult for some cisgender individuals to see why even scenes as seemingly minor as this one would be a big deal. Maybe I am not being as fair to artistic expression as I normally am, but being part of one the most misunderstood, ostracized, and invisible minorities out there doesn't make me sympathetic in this regard.

I don't think it's asking a lot for BioWare to cut us a little slack in the form of balanced portrayals. I would overlook bad transphobic humor if there was another trans character treated with greater depth and care. As I wrote in my first reply to this thread, I am not without a sense of humor. But until society takes several evolutionary steps forward, I think balanced depictions are important.

[AlexXIV]

Hm I thought it looked like a mod or something. I use mods alot and a female toon suddenly speaking with a male voice isn't new to me in a game

Anyway, I understand the concern people voiced in this thread. And no, it's not about freedom of speech or who the game belongs to. Get your facts straight, freedom of speech is not about being allowed to make fun of people who have problems or about being allowed to insult people unprovoked. If you don't believe me, go back to your history class, ask your teacher, or ask your parents or anyone who actually has got a clue.

That this happened to Bioware is not really restoring faith, and it's not just the writer's fault. I mean there are more people involved in it than Mary. Well anyway, there was an apology and if it gets taken out or changed it's all ok I think. Sadly alot of people are of the opinion that if they can laugh about something, it is funny, and must be ok for everyone. Well that's the egomaniac attitude we got today. Maybe instead of learning 'how to be a patriot' at school, time would be better spend learning how to be a decent human being to begin with. Parents nowadays seem to be overburderned with teaching their kids anything anyway. Just judging from some of the answers I had to read here.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 09 octobre 2011 - 10:02 .

[ReallyRue]

I just saw that video. It's shameful, and clearly in poor taste.

Kirby's apology is something though.

[Wittand25]

Boy that scene was akward. I hope that other responses by Hawke sound better.

And while I actually do understand why the thread starter and many others are offended and I understand the problems that Trans-person generally face, I would like to suggest a different view on the scene, more in a half-full glass instead of the half-empty way.

At least a Trans-person is part of the game and in a way that looks like she can not easily missed. Which means that there is a least visibility. And that the setting seems remarkable OK with it considering the seneschal can bring a transgendered date, who does not even try to hide being transsexual, to such a posh party.

Now that does not mean that I don´tthink that it is important to point out that this is a sensible subject to some and to remind the writers that they must try their best handle it more carefully in the future.

[payroo]

PresidentCowboy wrote...

autumnyte wrote...

llandwynwyn wrote...

Did people miss her in the base game or something? She was portrayed the same way, as a popular and flirty prostitute. We knew Bran was her client then, too.

Part of the big issue, for me, had to do with Hawke's reaction. Having the game impose a transphobic response onto Sarcastic Hawke, the character I play, without any sort of warning, was a slap to the face. 

You're interpreting it as transphobic. Hawke could be all "soooooooooooooo moving swiftly on" cause Bran brought one of the Blooming Rose's prostitutes to an upper class function.

That begs the question of how they even knew she was a prostitute - as far as Tallis' character was concerned, she had no way of knowing where Serendipity came from. All Tallis reacted to (or at least, how the scene read) was the voice.

That being said, I don't see why people are trying to attack Mary Kirby for apologizing. It's not a sign of weakness to realize when you've screwed up and to acknowledge it - rather, it's a sign of strong moral character.

I'm not exactly holding my breath as to something being done about it in this DLC, but I can hope... Bioware is a great company in so many other regards - which is why this scene hurt even more than if it came from a place I didn't think was safe.

[esper]

slimgrin wrote...

esper wrote...


You are allowed to say everything you want, but you better be prepared to apologize if you step over the line or accept the fact that you made enemies because not everyone has to accept you as funny. 

I'm not trying to be funny. I've championed a gay character from the beginning actually. But Bioware doesn't have the balls for that either.

I was not trying to say that you specifically was trying to be funny actually. That was just because people were talking about the holy free speech of art and so fort and this is about a joke.

If say you make a joke and it and unintentionally hurt someone, a decent person at least tried to apologizes. Of course if you purposely tried to hurt someone with the joke you are just a jerk.

My point was that you can say whatever you want, but if you are a decent sort of person and know that you have crossed the line, you apologize.

[Agamo45]

:ph34r:Edit: Once again, if you don't like the subject matter, find another thread:ph34r:

Modifié par casamar, 09 octobre 2011 - 09:58 .

[esper]

Ferris95 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

esper wrote...


You are allowed to say everything you want, but you better be prepared to apologize if you step over the line or accept the fact that you made enemies because not everyone has to accept you as funny. 

I'm not trying to be funny. I've championed a gay character from the beginning actually. But Bioware doesn't have the balls for that either.

I think that bit was directed at Bioware actually.

It was directed at the artist - so bioware, yes.

[Xilizhra]

Agamo45 wrote...

Trannies are unholy freaks of nature, they don't belong in the game. The disorder has probably been cured by that point in the future.

Um, Dragon Age isn't the future.

[Blastback]

My mod senses are tingling.

[AlexXIV]

Xilizhra wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

Trannies are unholy freaks of nature, they don't belong in the game. The disorder has probably been cured by that point in the future.

Um, Dragon Age isn't the future.

Don't feed it ...

[slimgrin]

Seagloom wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Where the hell is Seagloom? Has she commented on this?

~edit~ there she is..

Yeah. I'm not interested in a protracted debate, so I will leave it at this post. We clearly disagree on this one, and this issue is too complex to hash out in a few swift forum posts. Suffice it to say I think it is very difficult for some cisgender individuals to see why even scenes as seemingly minor as this one would be a big deal. Maybe I am not being as fair to artistic expression as I normally am, but being part of one the most misunderstood, ostracized, and invisible minorities out there doesn't make me sympathetic in this regard.

I don't think it's asking a lot for BioWare to cut us a little slack in the form of balanced portrayals. I would overlook bad transphobic humor if there was another trans character treated with greater depth and care. As I wrote in my first reply to this thread, I am not without a sense of humor. But until society takes several evolutionary steps forward, I think balanced depictions are important.

I understand why you hold that opinion, but I don't agree in the least.

[mauledbyswans]

autumnyte wrote...

Part of the big issue, for me, had to do with Hawke's reaction. Having the game impose a transphobic response onto Sarcastic Hawke, the character I play, without any sort of warning, was a slap to the face. 

Personally, I would have so much less of problem with this if not for Hawke's reaction. I would have liked that we got to see more of Serendipity, and Tallis being cissexist/transphobic I can accept as an unfavourable part of her character (an unnecessary thing to add to the game, but... yeah), but that to be Hawke's reaction too? No.

[Xilizhra]

Ferris95 wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

Magic cured it then, whatever.

My head hurts from the sheer stupidity of what you are spewing. Every word that you type makes me feel slightly less intelligent for having read, for the sake of all the BSN just stop.

To each one's own, I suppose. I generally just laugh.

[Sylvianus]

If bioware apologizes, they should remove it in my opinion. They must be consistent.

[ademska]

slimgrin wrote...

I understand why you hold that opinion, but I don't agree in the least.

this is fine. no one is asking you (or anyone else) to agree or feel offended by the scene.

all we ask as a matter of decency is for people to not advocate silencing those of us who were hurt.

[MsKehoe]

 woo, i went to take a nap and then came back to this. i wish i can say i'm surprised by some of the ignorant comments i'm seeing, but i'm not and i'm just not going to pay attention to those. i would like to say thank you to those who stepped in to explain things more eloquently than i can.

@Mary Kirby. Thank you for taking the time to read my post and listen. I do truly enjoy these games and I wouldn't be on here if I didn't. I just hope this doesn't come up again in the future.

[Anyroad2]

payroo wrote...

That begs the question of how they even knew she was a prostitute - as far as Tallis' character was concerned, she had no way of knowing where Serendipity came from. All Tallis reacted to (or at least, how the scene read) was the voice.

Or Tallis' reaction may be because Serendipity is hitting on Hawke, even though shes standing right next to Bran who we think brought Serendipity to the event in the first place.

Also, whats wrong with Tallis' reaction to Serendipitys voice anyway? I'm willing to bet that a lot of people would feel uncomfortable or weird hearing someone like Dr. Girlfriend for the first time. Meaning a woman who has a deep, manly voice for whatever reason.