257 réponses à ce sujet

[TheJediSaint]

Pretty sure that if Vaughn (the bad guy from the city elf origin) wanted to host a rape-party with human girls, it would not be to hard for him. I mean, have you seen the basement in the Arl of Denerim's mansion?

[Xilizhra]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Pretty sure that if Vaughn (the bad guy from the city elf origin) wanted to host a rape-party with human girls, it would not be to hard for him. I mean, have you seen the basement in the Arl of Denerim's mansion?

He'd get a lot more people angry at him, probably.

[AlexXIV]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Irrelevant. Had there not been intolerable abuses committed by the templars along with all of this (possibly interspersed with admonitions to be grateful for this very reason), there would never have been a rebellion.

You mean the abuses the average folk on Thedas suffers at the hands of Guards, Chevaliers, Nobles and such? Those abuses?

If I were going to be abused, I'd rather do it in a nice place.

Lol, careful what you wish for. My point is that they are stupid. Because mages are dangerous and the templars and chantry play with fire. Yes, they let them practise magic, let them become stronger. And then they try to herd them around. What is wrong with that picture? If you think magic is too powerful to use, don't use it. It is simply a matter of double standarts. On one side they 'have to protect the people from magic' on the other side they use magic to protect the people from other threats. For example homeless elves etc. The chantry are basically like the mages. Just that the templars/seekers etc. are not mages, they use magic by ... basically enslaving ... mages. Yes, they have high standart of living, but still slaves. As far as I know in ancient rome there were also slaves who were treated better than some of the free citizens. But they still were slaves.

Thing is if they were serious about keeping the 'magic threat' low they would have more precautions and would not let mages become as powerful. I mean if you arrest someone for murder, you don't give him books how to murder more efficiently. Or do you? So why do mages train mages in order to become more powerful? To serve the chantry in their exalted marches. Not the mages are the Chantry's problem, they are their own problem. They cause all the bad things that come to them themselves. And that's basically the rundown of the DA story. The Chantry has, in my eyes, become just another tevinter empire. Maybe not as evil, but evil enough to be stopped.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 09 octobre 2011 - 11:26 .

[Dave of Canada]

The best part of being nobility is never having to say your sorry.

[TheJediSaint]

What if they were Orlesians?

[AlexXIV]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How many people in Ferelden have to deal with the constant possibility of rape?

The elves, the poor, servants, farmers, casteless, ect.

Well the fact that other people are also treated bad or worse is a bad excuse for treating people badly. Then we can throw all morale and ethics overboard and just say life is a **** and so are we.

[Xilizhra]

TheJediSaint wrote...

What if they were Orlesians?

That's more plausible.

But while I would honestly love to support any number of potential revolutions happening on Thedas, only the mage one is actually happening now and only the mage one is something that I can give my in-game support to.

[Dave of Canada]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well the fact that other people are also treated bad or worse is a bad excuse for treating people badly. Then we can throw all morale and ethics overboard and just say life is a **** and so are we.

No, the fact that people are being treated badly across the scale establishes what kind of world Thedas is. The morals and ethics of freedom and equality which you apply to their world don't exist.

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well the fact that other people are also treated bad or worse is a bad excuse for treating people badly. Then we can throw all morale and ethics overboard and just say life is a **** and so are we.

No, the fact that people are being treated badly across the scale establishes what kind of world Thedas is. The morals and ethics of freedom and equality which you apply to their world don't exist.

They exist in me and in Anders. And since the dialogue options to support that freedom exist, that's enough to establish that those habits of thought exist on Thedas.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'd love for once to see an apostate go abomination and raze a quarter of a city because he/she was tempted by a deal of having her sick child/husband/friend being cured.

Or, more to the point, any sort of reason besides 'help I'm being oppressed.'

There's a common misconception that the reason people would make deals with demons is freedom. This is the same symptom-versus-disease confusion which leads people to believe that the suicidal want to die... which is by and large grossly wrong, because the majority of suicidal people don't want to die, they want their suffering suffering to end and can't see any other way to do so.

The reason mages will turn to demons is stress, not a lack of freedom. While the lack of freedom can be a source of stress for people (the nature and severity depending on the Circle), it is far from the only source of stress there is... and ending the Circle system doesn't remove stress in general from the mages, only abolishing a specific source.

A fantasy many people in the past have had is the idea that if there were no Circle, there would be no mage problem. The idea goes that because the Circle is the current reason for Mage desperation, removing the circle will remove the source for mage desperation. No desperation no abomination, and everyone lives happily ever after.

What people don't consider, however, is what comes after the abolishing of the Circle... and about all the other sources of stress that the Circle does keep the mages from. Ending the circle isn't going to change the public sentiment against mages. Those mages you are re-entering into society are going to face all the common stresses of the common people as well: poverty, legal subservience and the accepted abuses that are a part of that, famine, crime. The emotional rollar coasters we accept as natural, but which are prime tender for abominations: love, loss, passion.

The real group to look at for the likely actions of a Free Mage state that isn't Tevinter isn't the Circle mages themselves, it's the commoners we ignore as they sit in the squalor, inequity, and poverty that won't change simply by freeing the magi.

Don't ask how many mages will strike deals with demons if the Circle is absolved. Instead, ask how many of the non-magi would strike deals with demons if they could.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well the fact that other people are also treated bad or worse is a bad excuse for treating people badly. Then we can throw all morale and ethics overboard and just say life is a **** and so are we.

No, the fact that people are being treated badly across the scale establishes what kind of world Thedas is. The morals and ethics of freedom and equality which you apply to their world don't exist.

They exist in me and in Anders. And since the dialogue options to support that freedom exist, that's enough to establish that those habits of thought exist on Thedas.

They exist in you. Anders doesn't share your politics.

Thedas is not a liberal-democratic society with western views of rule of law, civil rights, or even the ideals of the European Enlightenment.

[TheJediSaint]

Xilizhra wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

What if they were Orlesians?

That's more plausible.

But while I would honestly love to support any number of potential revolutions happening on Thedas, only the mage one is actually happening now and only the mage one is something that I can give my in-game support to.

A peasent, revolting or not, is still just a peasant.  A revolting mage is potientially a walking weapon of mass destruction.  

[AlexXIV]

Dave of Canada wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well the fact that other people are also treated bad or worse is a bad excuse for treating people badly. Then we can throw all morale and ethics overboard and just say life is a **** and so are we.

No, the fact that people are being treated badly across the scale establishes what kind of world Thedas is. The morals and ethics of freedom and equality which you apply to their world don't exist.

Well look into the bible about what Jesus and other prophets or whatever say about morale and ethics and compare it to what the church made of it. Looks to me that morale and ethics exist way before they are established in society. Means it is quite possible that you can think that it is wrong, even if it is established all across Thedas. I think it is open to the player to have his or her own take on what is right or wrong. You can go with the establishment or be a sort of revolutionist. If I remember correctly, Duncan also had his resentments about mages and how they are treated.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 09 octobre 2011 - 11:32 .

[mredders91]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

What if they were Orlesians?

That's more plausible.

But while I would honestly love to support any number of potential revolutions happening on Thedas, only the mage one is actually happening now and only the mage one is something that I can give my in-game support to.

A peasent, revolting or not, is still just a peasant.  A revolting mage is potientially a walking weapon of mass destruction.  

revolts are still destructive doesnt matter who doing it people will still get hurt na dthe qun is looking more and more appealing

[TheJediSaint]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The reason mages will turn to demons is stress, not a lack of freedom. While the lack of freedom can be a source of stress for people (the nature and severity depending on the Circle), it is far from the only source of stress there is... and ending the Circle system doesn't remove stress in general from the mages, only abolishing a specific source.

So in other words, instead of locking up mages in Circles, we should instead lock them up in spas where they get free massages and access to an open bar?

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Irrelevant. Had there not been intolerable abuses committed by the templars along with all of this (possibly interspersed with admonitions to be grateful for this very reason), there would never have been a rebellion.

You mean the abuses the average folk on Thedas suffers at the hands of Guards, Chevaliers, Nobles and such? Those abuses?

If I were going to be abused, I'd rather do it in a nice place.

Lol, careful what you wish for. My point is that they are stupid. Because mages are dangerous and the templars and chantry play with fire. Yes, they let them practise magic, let them become stronger. And then they try to herd them around. What is wrong with that picture? If you think magic is too powerful to use, don't use it. It is simply a matter of double standarts. On one side they 'have to protect the people from magic' on the other side they use magic to protect the people from other threats. For example homeless elves etc. The chantry are basically like the mages. Just that the templars/seekers etc. are not mages, they use magic by ... basically enslaving ... mages. Yes, they have high standart of living, but still slaves. As far as I know in ancient rome there were also slaves who were treated better than some of the free citizens. But they still were slaves.

That's about as much a double-standard as governments being hypocritical for banning everyone from having assault rifles while they themselves have militiaries. It's also about as unintelligent.

There is no requirement of two arbitrary and fanciful extremes, of total banning or total freedom.

Thing is if they were serious about keeping the 'magic threat' low they would have more precautions and would not let mages become as powerful. I mean if you arrest someone for murder, you don't give him books how to murder more efficiently. Or do you? So why do mages train mages in order to become more powerful? To serve the chantry in their exalted marches. Not the mages are the Chantry's problem, they are their own problem. They cause all the bad things that come to them themselves. And that's basically the rundown of the DA story. The Chantry has, in my eyes, become just another tevinter empire. Maybe not as evil, but evil enough to be stopped.

People who aren't trained in magic are also people who are less able to control it. Potency/potential for danger doesn't diminish with a lack of extensive education (as Connor shows), but the ability for self-control does increase with practice.

Magic in Thedas isn't like a muscle which aptrophies and will never grow if you don't exercise it. It's always there: the training is to help you control it, which makes it safer for everyone.

[TEWR]

What do you think would have been a better way to construct the mage-templar conflict in order to make the final decision more "gray"?

Oh dear.... where do I begin?

This is something that I have wanted to talk about for a long time now. I'll try to jot down everything bouncing in my head, but more than likely I'll end up forgetting some things. Bear in mind this is all going to be very long and as always in my opinion. Here goes:

Okay, first off the mages and the Templars should've been the central focus of the whole game. There should've been a prologue detailing the Hawke family's less-than-ideal life in Lothering and how they avoided the Templars. 
 
Blah blah blah, Ostagar and flight from Lothering, blah blah blah, let's go to Kirkwall! Both siblings should've survived in my opinion to strengthen the conflict itself.

Okay, after choosing who you're working for there should've been a nice plot showcasing that first year, with maybe a few things regarding Mages and Templars worked in. But that's just something I would've liked to see since I want to romance Athenril. A lot.


But jump to where Act 1 begins. The Mages and the Templars should've been more prominent in this first Act. There should've been many instances of what normal mages face from demons (like have Hawke have a quest tree in the Fade.). This would establish early on how much demons truly plague the mage in question. Mage Hawkes would be able to be completely aware of the Fade because their mages, and Warrior/Rogue Hawkes and Carver could be aware because they have mage blood running through their veins. Anders and Merrill could also talk about similar experiences.

So now that we know how much they are plagued by demons in a general sense (it may vary between mages), we can move on to the actual Mages and Templars themselves.

Act 1 -- and subsequent acts, but I'll get to that later -- should've had the Mages and Templars be the main focus. Not just the conflict between the two, but Hawke's avoidance of the Templars, people noticing the magic the Hawke family has, the Qunari mages, etc. The Deep Roads Expedition should've been tied more closely to this. They made it too much of the main focus of Act 1. It should've been the background plot and not the actual plot of the first Act.

There should've been more quests dealing with Mages and Templars showing the good and bad of both sides in ways that make sense. Like for instance Decimus. I'll use him and the Act of Mercy arc itself as my sole example. He attacks the player no matter what, despite Grace telling him flat-out that Hawke and company -- who may have mages with them -- aren't discernably agents of the Chantry. Why? Because of plot stupidity and linearity. No, just no.

What should've happened is this. Decimus and Grace should've first told Hawke and company to cease moving towards them. Hawke and company would then stop and be questioned by Decimus and Grace. When asked where their allegiances lie, Hawke can respond in two ways:

A) I'm here to free you.
I'm here to hand you over to the Templars.

Situation A would have him and Grace ask Hawke to kill Thrask, but we wouldn't actually have to do this. Have Kerras still do everything he did currently, but give him some more dialogue to establish why he feels they do need to be punished. Perhaps he knows that Decimus may have started the fire. Maybe he's had bad experiences with magic that made him turn into who he is. But Kerras can still be killed then and there.

So Decimus and company go free. They get captured 3 years later, but Decimus doesn't blame Hawke. Rather, he blames the Chantry Loyalists that were hidden in his own group. 3 years after Act II, they're a part of Thrask's rebellion and ask you to join them. The player can then either side with them or against them. The former would have Hawke stage a false scene of battle with the group that would allow for the rebellion to run away (and none of that "spying for Orsino" crap happens). The latter would have Decimus and Grace fight Hawke. Again, it would all happen for believable reasons. No random "We fight now!!".

Situation B would have him attack Hawke, saying that he will not see his friends and family turned into Tranquil slaves by Templar dogs. Grace would try to stop him, but he would persist saying that he does this out of love and would gladly bear the consequences of killing people with his blood magic. Grace and the rest then get turned over, angry at Hawke for what he has done. Grace would be mixed in her feelings. On one hand Hawke killed her lover. On the other, Hawke was only trying to do what he felt was right. So a mix of anger and understanding fighting against one another.

3 years later, she's angry at Hawke for what he's done and wishes that he would die and that anyone he loves suffers horrible fates, so that he might know what she's going through. She sees herself as dead without Decimus and wants Hawke to know how that feels.

3 years after Act II, she's now a part of the rebellion. She offers Hawke one last chance to side with them when he shows up. Hawke can then either accept (which would lead to the false battle scenario sans Decimus) or he can refuse. Refusing leads Grace to fight Hawke, for reasons both personal and Meredith-related.

At least now I can kill you for the good of the cause and not feel guilty about letting my feelings override my senses. Meredith will fall, and you will fall. You took away Decimus, and I lived with that. I lived with that for six long and painful years where I cried night and day. I've lived with this poison that is anger filled in my heart. Champion or no, this rebellion will happen because Meredith must be removed from power, and all the people that do her bidding and abuse their power against people like us. Like me.

or something like that which would establish her as more of a tragic character. Thrask and the rest would then be arrested by Cullen and company when they arrive.

Though I'm wondering if what I'm saying doesn't sound as good as I think it does. I want the characters to not pigeonhole the player into siding with one faction and make the player feel like one action is no more right than the other. I'm typing a lot here, and I'll go in more depth if people would like me to or I'll even say "What poster A said is what I had in mind, but not what I typed" should that happen.

Now, I would've liked for Meredith and Orsino to be characterized from the start. The codex entry for the Staff of Violation has Orsino as first enchanter in 9:26 Dragon, while Meredith became Knight Commander around 9:21 (see her codex entry).

The player only knows this through codexes that happen so late in the game they may go unnoticed. This is a mistake.

Ideally, Hawke would be apprehended after Enemies Among Us and Act of Mercy and brought before Orsino and Meredith for either being a Mage or shielding mages, or both. Depending on the player's actions in those two quests, one of the head honchos would talk to Hawke in private and say that they can leave the Gallows if they serve as their aid in the city.

Orsino would ask Hawke to help his charges be safe from Meredith's heavy-handed yet understandable tactics, while Meredith would ask Hawke to send the mages back to the Gallows before they become a threat to themselves and the public and she will punish those that need to be punished (like murderous mages be made Tranquil or some such). Again, I want the player to know that neither side is more right than the other from the beginning. However, you could go the other route if you wanted (pro-Templar people suddenly go pro-mage)

If I haven't said that there should be more Mage and templar related quests in the first Act yet, I'm doing so now. After each, the player would be required to check in with both people. They would then talk about their lives, their duties, etc. Orsino would say that among the mages, he was gifted with having an eidetic memory and this is partially why he's done so well. Meredith would talk about her background with her mage sibling and admit that while she's suffered trauma, she is doing her best to not let it interfere with her professional duties (though at times it does become hard because she sees her sister's face in places).

This however wouldn't be all they talk about.

Let me talk about Act II and Act III in separate posts. I feel that this is enough though to get my point across for Act I, though I have also talked about Tarohne in other threads where I'd like her to be either sane in Act 1 and not look like a clown.


hmmm.... I think I'll gather all of these together and make a blog posting when I'm done. By the time I finish the second one I expect more pages will have left this one in the dust.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 octobre 2011 - 11:40 .

[mredders91]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The reason mages will turn to demons is stress, not a lack of freedom. While the lack of freedom can be a source of stress for people (the nature and severity depending on the Circle), it is far from the only source of stress there is... and ending the Circle system doesn't remove stress in general from the mages, only abolishing a specific source.

So in other words, instead of locking up mages in Circles, we should instead lock them up in spas where they get free massages and access to an open bar?

yes mages have powers that other dont and they can be dangerous when used but that does need to treat them like slaves you help them, teach them to understand and control there power, you take away anyones feemdom and they will responed in kind yo can protect the world with fear only with understanding

[Dean_the_Young]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The reason mages will turn to demons is stress, not a lack of freedom. While the lack of freedom can be a source of stress for people (the nature and severity depending on the Circle), it is far from the only source of stress there is... and ending the Circle system doesn't remove stress in general from the mages, only abolishing a specific source.

So in other words, instead of locking up mages in Circles, we should instead lock them up in spas where they get free massages and access to an open bar?

And servants and sex sex slaves 'recruited' from the populace. Can't have those demons of lust being attractive, after all.

We'll need to keep each mage in a separate spa, so that no two mages get interested in the same little boy or girl. Have to avoid jealousy.

A big supply of recreational drugs will also be necessary. Templars will be the body guards to keep undesirables and bandits away.

[nightscrawl]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

... what could they have done to make the choice at the end better in this regard?

... I also don't think the final decision was constructed very well if they wanted to make it a hard one.

... but I also believe that the templars serve an important purpose and whenever the game forced me to choose an unfairly one-sided dialogue option one way or another I'd usually pick the pro-templar one.

And while I suspect there is a section of players who do side with the mages by default out of dislike of the Chantry or what not, if somebody like me who might otherwise support the Chantry or templars still sides with the mages then I don't think that alone can account for it.

Personally I could maybe see siding with the templars based on the belief that it will cause much less chaos and destruction to the city, but that still felt like an unlikely scenario to me and it isn't even really siding with Meredith on principle, just the hope of minimizing collateral deaths.

What do you think would have been a better way to construct the mage-templar conflict in order to make the final decision more "gray"?

I think the biggest mistake they made in the final Big Choice was in making it basically about the Rite of Annulment. You may in fact think that the templar order is necessary, may like some individual templars, or have worked yourself in supporting them by doing quests like Bounty Hunter. But in the end, it all comes down to the Rite of Annulment and whether you believe in punishing everyone for the actions of a few. Even if fully half of all mages in Kirkwall were involved with demons, it's not reason enough for killing the other half that are not. I bet I'm not alone in that.

I play a mage more often than any other class, but even I am not so deluded in thinking that mages are only peace-loving people who just want to be left alone to research their craft and raise families. There are mages who seek power and riches and glory, like there are non-mages who seek those things. There are mages who are cruel, like Danarius; there are mages that are insane, like Quentin; there are mages that are cunning, like Severan (The Stolen Throne); and there are mages who want to rule the world, like Uldred and Tarohne. There are just as many examples of non-mages who are all of those things as well. Mages are only different in that they have magic, which gives them an edge.

Those things are why I help the templars do certain things, even as a mage. Anders even accused me once of hating my own kind on a rival playthrough. But I will NOT stand by while one person decides that a bunch of unproven mages should die, simply for the crime(s) of another. As Sebastian says: why are we debating the Rite of Annulment when the one responsible is standing right here? The Rite is a really extreme reaction, one that throws the entire city into chaos, no matter who you side with.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
But that's just something I would've liked to see since I want to romance Athenril. A lot.

...

hmmm.... I think I'll gather all of these together and make a blog posting when I'm done. By the time I finish the second one I expect more pages will have left this one in the dust.

She is certainly the hottest female elf in the entire game, that's for sure. Hotter than Tallis even. I'll look forward to reading your blog post!

Modifié par nightscrawl, 09 octobre 2011 - 11:48 .

[Dean_the_Young]

mredders91 wrote...

yes mages have powers that other dont and they can be dangerous when used but that does need to treat them like slaves you help them, teach them to understand and control there power, you take away anyones feemdom and they will responed in kind yo can protect the world with fear only with understanding

Sometimes the first thing to understand is that coexistence and freedom can be impossible. Quarantines are not simply the excuse for needless oppression.

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The reason mages will turn to demons is stress, not a lack of freedom. While the lack of freedom can be a source of stress for people (the nature and severity depending on the Circle), it is far from the only source of stress there is... and ending the Circle system doesn't remove stress in general from the mages, only abolishing a specific source.

So in other words, instead of locking up mages in Circles, we should instead lock them up in spas where they get free massages and access to an open bar?

And servants and sex sex slaves 'recruited' from the populace. Can't have those demons of lust being attractive, after all.

We'll need to keep each mage in a separate spa, so that no two mages get interested in the same little boy or girl. Have to avoid jealousy.

A big supply of recreational drugs will also be necessary. Templars will be the body guards to keep undesirables and bandits away.

You know, this does sound like it'd be much more efficient at dealing with demons. I wonder what the other people of Thedas would think of this proposal...

[naledgeborn]

Doesn't matter really. Sandal said when "he rises the skies will part and magic will come back". Every is a mage. No need for Templars anymore. Problem solved.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Irrelevant. Had there not been intolerable abuses committed by the templars along with all of this (possibly interspersed with admonitions to be grateful for this very reason), there would never have been a rebellion.

You mean the abuses the average folk on Thedas suffers at the hands of Guards, Chevaliers, Nobles and such? Those abuses?

If I were going to be abused, I'd rather do it in a nice place.

Lol, careful what you wish for. My point is that they are stupid. Because mages are dangerous and the templars and chantry play with fire. Yes, they let them practise magic, let them become stronger. And then they try to herd them around. What is wrong with that picture? If you think magic is too powerful to use, don't use it. It is simply a matter of double standarts. On one side they 'have to protect the people from magic' on the other side they use magic to protect the people from other threats. For example homeless elves etc. The chantry are basically like the mages. Just that the templars/seekers etc. are not mages, they use magic by ... basically enslaving ... mages. Yes, they have high standart of living, but still slaves. As far as I know in ancient rome there were also slaves who were treated better than some of the free citizens. But they still were slaves.

That's about as much a double-standard as governments being hypocritical for banning everyone from having assault rifles while they themselves have militiaries. It's also about as unintelligent.

There is no requirement of two arbitrary and fanciful extremes, of total banning or total freedom.

Thing is if they were serious about keeping the 'magic threat' low they would have more precautions and would not let mages become as powerful. I mean if you arrest someone for murder, you don't give him books how to murder more efficiently. Or do you? So why do mages train mages in order to become more powerful? To serve the chantry in their exalted marches. Not the mages are the Chantry's problem, they are their own problem. They cause all the bad things that come to them themselves. And that's basically the rundown of the DA story. The Chantry has, in my eyes, become just another tevinter empire. Maybe not as evil, but evil enough to be stopped.

People who aren't trained in magic are also people who are less able to control it. Potency/potential for danger doesn't diminish with a lack of extensive education (as Connor shows), but the ability for self-control does increase with practice.

Magic in Thedas isn't like a muscle which aptrophies and will never grow if you don't exercise it. It's always there: the training is to help you control it, which makes it safer for everyone.

You can compare guns to swords, but not to magic. Magic is more like nuclear weapons. And yes, saying that they are bad and at the same time using them is harmful. We are lucky enough to not have had a 3rd world war happening or we wouldn't have this conversation, but this doesn't make nukes harmless.

Connor had training. Not sure what he was capable of without training, but he had a bloodmage teach him before he was taken over by a demon. Also I am not against training to control their power. But they are getting more powerful, they even have blood magic books lying around. We had it in the Circle of Ferelden and in Kirkwall both. Not to mention that the towers in which the Circles dwell are obviously ancient tevinter strongholds in which the veil that separates demons from the mortal world is especially thin.

My problem is that their attitude is that 'magic should serve men, not rule them'. Magic does not serve. It's like with demons and spirits. You can befriend a spirit and it may help you. But if you force a demon into servitude, it will come biting you into your butt. I don't really think the Chantry knows what they are doing, using magic like that.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 09 octobre 2011 - 11:48 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The reason mages will turn to demons is stress, not a lack of freedom. While the lack of freedom can be a source of stress for people (the nature and severity depending on the Circle), it is far from the only source of stress there is... and ending the Circle system doesn't remove stress in general from the mages, only abolishing a specific source.

So in other words, instead of locking up mages in Circles, we should instead lock them up in spas where they get free massages and access to an open bar?

And servants and sex sex slaves 'recruited' from the populace. Can't have those demons of lust being attractive, after all.

We'll need to keep each mage in a separate spa, so that no two mages get interested in the same little boy or girl. Have to avoid jealousy.

A big supply of recreational drugs will also be necessary. Templars will be the body guards to keep undesirables and bandits away.

You know, this does sound like it'd be much more efficient at dealing with demons. I wonder what the other people of Thedas would think of this proposal...

(A) That giving the mages unrestricted leisures and privelages in the name of appeasing the allure of demons is effectively the equivalent of the position of the Teventer Magisters,

( It's incredibly unequal and discriminatory towards the super-majority of the population, who will not only have to pay for and supply the bodies to entertain the whims of these mages.

© The subordination of others freedoms to serve the mages leisures and whims is simply changing the position of domination and subordination in the favor of the minority.