257 réponses à ce sujet

[vp1940]

I'm downright baffled that anyone sided with the mages. I wonder how many of the players who did, were either a warrior or rogue. I could understand the dilemma of siding against your own kind, as the cgi movies seem to indicate Hawke was conceptualized to be a canon mage. But nowhere in the game outside of Bethany (who's impact is lessened by being taken away early, if you have her at all) is there a mage who did not flat out deserve to die. Considering the fact, I found Meredith to be completely sympathetic until Bioware sloppily wrote her into a madwoman for no reason.

[Ryzaki]

Seriously my mage Hawke wanted to punch someone in the face everytime they said she was turning aganist her "kind". Uh no. Her kind is not mages. Her kind is her family which included Carver's hard head, her mom and Gamlen. That's it. That was her kind. Not idiot bloodmage #999.

[DKJaigen]

vp1940 wrote...

I'm downright baffled that anyone sided with the mages. I wonder how many of the players who did, were either a warrior or rogue. I could understand the dilemma of siding against your own kind, as the cgi movies seem to indicate Hawke was conceptualized to be a canon mage. But nowhere in the game outside of Bethany (who's impact is lessened by being taken away early, if you have her at all) is there a mage who did not flat out deserve to die. Considering the fact, I found Meredith to be completely sympathetic until Bioware sloppily wrote her into a madwoman for no reason.

People are simply  pragmatist and those who are not are the ones usually support the templars. Thats why i cannot support the templars. For i cannot stand the thought to condemn an entire group to death for the actions of one. And the second part its quite obvious that the current system doesnt work and the full blame lies with the templars and the chantry. And third the current system is not their to protect the common people but is actually their to keep the chantry in power

[Xewaka]

vp1940 wrote...
I'm downright baffled that anyone sided with the mages. I wonder how many of the players who did, were either a warrior or rogue. I could understand the dilemma of siding against your own kind, as the cgi movies seem to indicate Hawke was conceptualized to be a canon mage.

He might be a bloodmage in the CGI trailer, but the plot (such as it is) makes even less sense if Hawke's a mage.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Because if an abomination is let loose in the village of MiddleOfFrigginNowhere, it could take the Templars months to respond to the threat, in which time the abomination could have decimated the entire countryside.

[jamesp81]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Because if an abomination is let loose in the village of MiddleOfFrigginNowhere, it could take the Templars months to respond to the threat, in which time the abomination could have decimated the entire countryside.

Why doesn't that happen as a matter of routine in Rivain then?

[DPSSOC]

Dalira Montanti wrote...
Mages should be free, keep the Templars by all means but the tower should not be used as a prizion, why not let the mages stay with there families but still have an education at the tower at the same time

 
Two reasons; first if we accept the premise that demons prey on emotional durress allowing mages to remain with their families while they're being trained increases the likelihood of them becoming an abomination.  Family interactions are loaded with emotional and mental stress, not to mention the hatred and fear they'd face from the vast majority of Thedas.

Second, a half trained mage is far more dangerous than an untrained mage.  Remember in the Magi Origin that one apprentice who was trying to control fire?  Remember how that turned out?  A mage is going to want to practice their powers and if you don't have them somewhere they can be constantly supervised (or at least have experienced mages on hand in the event of an accident) you open the door for things to go very, very wrong.

Dalira Montanti wrote...
if mages were treated fairly in this manor there be less need to use bloodmagic

Yes because there's absolutely no blood magic used outside the terrible, evil Circle, nope not a single blood mage to be found.  I mean it's not like there's an entire nation run by mages with an entire power structure built around it.  Nope it's just the poor Circle mages using it to fight the evil Templars.

jamesp81 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Because if an abomination is let loose in the village of MiddleOfFrigginNowhere, it could take the Templars months to respond to the threat, in which time the abomination could have decimated the entire countryside.

Why doesn't that happen as a matter of routine in Rivain then?

Because mages being part of the culture is a long standing tradition.  Anywhere that has a Circle however does not have this tradition, doesn't have the societal safeguards established over thousands of years to deal with mages who go out of control.

The majority of Thedas relies on the Templars to put down abominations, but the Templars can't be everywhere so they use the Circles to keep most mages in one spot.  If you allow mages to leave the Circle while training and one does go abomination in the village of MiddleOfFrigginNowhere there's nobody, absolutely nobody, who can deal with the problem unless by some miracle of chance a group of Templars are passing by or there happens to be an experienced mage in the same village.

[Dave of Canada]

jamesp81 wrote...

Why doesn't that happen as a matter of routine in Rivain then?

Except it does and people treat it as a natural disaster rather than punishing mages, something which not everybody might agree with.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 10 octobre 2011 - 01:14 .

[Heimdall]

I can accept siding with the Templars more often. My Hawke didn't because of Bethany and believing the Circle system is broken, but I can see the argument.

[TheJediSaint]

Lord Aesir wrote...

I can accept siding with the Templars more often. My Hawke didn't because of Bethany and believing the Circle system is broken, but I can see the argument.

^ More or less my logic, as well.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well no, they will probably keep the Circle hierarchy. Maybe a council of sorts led by the eldest or most powerful. I think as long as mages don't lord over non-mages again like in the TE there will not be problems with non mages. The problem in the TE was that mages used non mages as slaves and fuel for their rituals. In a country of just mages they would only have low numbers and mages would still have to clean their rooms themselves. Stuff like that. I would make it a rule that mages may not have non mages servants, not even paid ones. That would keep mage problems in mage hands at any time without non mages being victims of any kind.

Why would they restrain themselves to that? If they're free, they can have peasants and servants clean their rooms while they do, well, magic.

If only mages serve mages, then every mage but the top are still the servants. That gives pressure to rise to the top... and the easiest ways to do that involve blood magic and demons.

And they should be forbidden to summon any demons of course.

Why? That's just Chantry propoganda. All the enlightened mages (and many of the ones actually, you know, pushing for independence) know that demons are tools for power and progress.

[jamesp81]

Dave of Canada wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Why doesn't that happen as a matter of routine in Rivain then?

Except it does and people treat it as a natural disaster rather than punishing mages, something which not everybody might agree with.

Provide proof, or it's BS

Modifié par jamesp81, 10 octobre 2011 - 02:37 .

[Gervaise]

If the writers really wanted people to make a balanced choice, they should not have presented the situation in the Gallows as Templars abusing their power over mages in so sadistic a way (without apparently any comeback from those in command when this is revealled to them), they should have shown more examples of dedicated templars doing their job and being supported by their chief - think how Emerich was treated. They should not have placed a sibling in the Circle by force (it was Carvers choice to join the Templars). First and foremost, though, they should not have used the bomb plot to instigate the RoA. Naturally, most people would object to an RoA being called as a result of the actions of one apostate mage.

Now if they had had Meredith explaining that her desire to search the tower was because it had recently been shown (in Best Served Cold) that not only were Templars conspiring against her but they had been doing so in conjuction with blood mages from within the Cirlce, that would seem more reasonable. If on searching the Tower, evidence had been turned up, in particular the link between Orsino and Quentin, her anxiety would also be more reasonable, and if, when cornered about his involvement, Orsino had then turned into the Harvester, there might have been more justification for Meredith calling the RoA.. You could still object on the grounds that not all mages in the Circle are guilty and therefore side against the Templars but there would be more reason why you could justify siding with Meredith, particularly if she offered to spare your sibling if you did so.

As the plot currently stand, one insane apostate mage bombs the Chantry, one insane Knight Commander orders a RoA against the Circle mages, who had nothing to do with the plot (this is something you know for certain) and if you are not a mage yourself, this will involve you in seeking to kill your own sister, who Meredith has admitted to you (or not depending on your dialogue choices) she knows is an exemplary mage. What did the writers expect you to do?

[Dean_the_Young]

jamesp81 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Why doesn't that happen as a matter of routine in Rivain then?

Except it does and people treat it as a natural disaster rather than punishing mages, something which not everybody might agree with.

Provide proof, or it's BS

Which part?

That abominations occur in Rivain? No, that's actually one of the few things we do know about Rivain.

That even non-Circle systems have hostile abominations? Even the Dalish concede that: an abomination is just seen as acceptable cost of such a system.

That abominations are potential natural disasters? We have more than enough accounts and examples from the cases we do know of.

That not everyone considers tolerating hostileabominations an acceptable cost? That's why the Circle system still exists.


Now, perhaps you'd provide proof to the claim that hostile abominations don't occur in Rivain?

[jamesp81]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Why doesn't that happen as a matter of routine in Rivain then?

Except it does and people treat it as a natural disaster rather than punishing mages, something which not everybody might agree with.

Provide proof, or it's BS

Which part?

That abominations occur in Rivain? No, that's actually one of the few things we do know about Rivain.

That even non-Circle systems have hostile abominations? Even the Dalish concede that: an abomination is just seen as acceptable cost of such a system.

That abominations are potential natural disasters? We have more than enough accounts and examples from the cases we do know of.

That not everyone considers tolerating hostileabominations an acceptable cost? That's why the Circle system still exists.


Now, perhaps you'd provide proof to the claim that hostile abominations don't occur in Rivain?

He stated that if an abomination got loose in the middle of nowhere, it could decimate the countryside before a templar showed up.  I demand proof of this, since this very thing apparently happens in Rivain and, yet, the entire country isn't a smoking crater.

Until I see some proof that Rivain is a land of terror, overrun by abominations, his statement is false and is based on personal opinion that is contradicted by known in-game lore.

Rivaini hedge mages are a daring lot, I'll give you that.  They seek to merge with spirits (not demons) as a way to help their communities.  I get the idea that they're going for the sort of merging that Wynne had with Faith, as opposed to situations like Uldred merging with a pride demon, or Anders merging with and corrupting Justice into Vengeance.

Furthermore, the fact that Rivain doesn't turn into a swirling hell of demon possessed mages tells us something.  Either abominations are not nearly so common as the templars would have you believe, or they are not as dangerous as they'd have you believe.  If both were true, there'd likely be nothing left of Rivain.  Yet, not once in all of Isabela's stories, do we hear tales of the constant threat of attack by abominations.  In fact, she seems to dismiss them as a serious threat due to their rarity, although I don't know if that opinion was formed by her time in Ferelden or during her earlier years in Rivain, so that particular bit of conversation from her might not mean anything in the grand scheme.

As for which part to prove, he needs to provide proof for all parts of it.  As for hostile abominations in Rivain, they do occur at times.  This is not particularly informative, however, as they appear to occur at times pretty much everywhere.

Modifié par jamesp81, 10 octobre 2011 - 03:45 .

[TheJediSaint]

Errm, considering that Wynne is the only example in-game of a possession that does not go horribly wrong, I'm going to err on the assumption that abominations are in fact dangerous. The fact is that we don't know enough about the nature of the magic practiced by the Rivani seers to make any useful judgements.

[jamesp81]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Errm, considering that Wynne is the only example in-game of a possession that does not go horribly wrong, I'm going to err on the assumption that abominations are in fact dangerous. The fact is that we don't know enough about the nature of the magic practiced by the Rivani seers to make any useful judgements.

We know the following:

1. Rivaini seers seek to merge with spirits on purpose
2. Rivain is not a smoking wasteland from constant abomination attacks

Not exactly rocket surgery here.  Either abominations are not as common as the templars say, or they're not as dangerous as the templars say.  Or, on the gripping hand, the Circle system actually increases the incidence of abominations.

[TheJediSaint]

jamesp81 wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Errm, considering that Wynne is the only example in-game of a possession that does not go horribly wrong, I'm going to err on the assumption that abominations are in fact dangerous. The fact is that we don't know enough about the nature of the magic practiced by the Rivani seers to make any useful judgements.

We know the following:

1. Rivaini seers seek to merge with spirits on purpose
2. Rivain is not a smoking wasteland from constant abomination attacks

Not exactly rocket surgery here.  Either abominations are not as common as the templars say, or they're not as dangerous as the templars say.  Or, on the gripping hand, the Circle system actually increases the incidence of abominations.

Oversimpfications oversimpify,  For all we know, Abominations could be more common than they are in Chantry lands.  My point is that we do not know.  There is quite simply too little information to make useful conclusions.

[jamesp81]

TheJediSaint wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Errm, considering that Wynne is the only example in-game of a possession that does not go horribly wrong, I'm going to err on the assumption that abominations are in fact dangerous. The fact is that we don't know enough about the nature of the magic practiced by the Rivani seers to make any useful judgements.

We know the following:

1. Rivaini seers seek to merge with spirits on purpose
2. Rivain is not a smoking wasteland from constant abomination attacks

Not exactly rocket surgery here.  Either abominations are not as common as the templars say, or they're not as dangerous as the templars say.  Or, on the gripping hand, the Circle system actually increases the incidence of abominations.

Oversimpfications oversimpify,  For all we know, Abominations could be more common than they are in Chantry lands.  My point is that we do not know.  There is quite simply too little information to make useful conclusions.

If there were, Rivain would be a swirling hell of monsters constantly preying on the weak.  You'd think that would get mentioned.

"Oversimplifications oversimplify" is an extremely weak argument use by someone who doesn't have one.

It is known that Rivaini mages seek to become abominations, and that the circle is either very weak or non-existent in Rivain.  Now, tell me, why is the country not wrecked?

[TheJediSaint]

jamesp81 wrote...

If there were, Rivain would be a swirling hell of monsters constantly preying on the weak.  You'd think that would get mentioned.

"Oversimplifications oversimplify" is an extremely weak argument use by someone who doesn't have one.

It is known that Rivaini mages seek to become abominations, and that the circle is either very weak or non-existent in Rivain.  Now, tell me, why is the country not wrecked?

Conclusions based on overly limited informaiton are extremely weak, I'm simply pointing that out.  

Until we know more about Rivani seers, your arguments are just noise.

[jamesp81]

TheJediSaint wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

If there were, Rivain would be a swirling hell of monsters constantly preying on the weak.  You'd think that would get mentioned.

"Oversimplifications oversimplify" is an extremely weak argument use by someone who doesn't have one.

It is known that Rivaini mages seek to become abominations, and that the circle is either very weak or non-existent in Rivain.  Now, tell me, why is the country not wrecked?

Conclusions based on overly limited informaiton are extremely weak, I'm simply pointing that out.  

Until we know more about Rivani seers, your arguments are just noise.

You have yet again avoided the information that is right in front of us.  I cannot make you address it, so think whatever you want about the situation.

Modifié par jamesp81, 10 octobre 2011 - 04:56 .

[DPSSOC]

jamesp81 wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...
Errm, considering that Wynne is the only example in-game of a possession that does not go horribly wrong, I'm going to err on the assumption that abominations are in fact dangerous. The fact is that we don't know enough about the nature of the magic practiced by the Rivani seers to make any useful judgements.

We know the following:

1. Rivaini seers seek to merge with spirits on purpose
2. Rivain is not a smoking wasteland from constant abomination attacks

Not exactly rocket surgery here.  Either abominations are not as common as the templars say, or they're not as dangerous as the templars say.  Or, on the gripping hand, the Circle system actually increases the incidence of abominations.

Or, crazy thought, the Rivaini know what they're doing.  Making gunpowder is exceptionally dangerous, get the proportions wrong or get a spark too close and it can literally blow up in your face.  Someone who doesn't know what they're doing is more likely to have an accident than someone who does.  Rivaini seers probably don't just merge with the first Fade spirit that comes along, chances are good they can identify, draw, and/or communicate with spirits.  Mages elsewhere don't have this benefit and getting rid of the Circle won't change that.

Also as I pointed out in a previous post seers and hedge mages are a long standing part of Rivaini culture.  The practice has been going on for thousands of years so they probably have methods of containment should the worst occur (just like the Dalish).

If you want proof of the danger of abominations look at Connor.  Look at what he was able to do and how long it took for outside help to arrive.  Without the Warden the village falls, without the Warden Connor would have kept raising corpses and sending them out to conquer the lands.  Now think, Connor was a mage just coming into his power, poorly trained, and that's what he was capable of.  Now if you had a fully or even half trained mage in a remote village how much damage could they do before anyone even finds out they're there should the worst happen.

[EmperorSahlertz]

We know nothing about the rate of abominations in Rivain. It might be higher, it might be lower, we don't know. We don't even know the Seers actively seek out spirits to let themselves be possessed. All we know is that tehy allow for themselves to become possessed.

Somehow people get an aweful lot of information out of this, and are quick to declare Rivain for "magetopia", but that is largly unsubstantially supported, and actually downright dimwitted..

[Jaulen]

What gets me, and makes it hard for me to ever side with the templar, is in Act 3, before Anders does anything to the Chantry, the Templars have ALREADY sent for the right of annullment.

It's mentioned in the Chantry and in the Gallows courtyard that Meredith has sent for the right of annullment....