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[TEWR]

If you want proof of the danger of abominations look at Connor. Look at what he was able to do and how long it took for outside help to arrive. Without the Warden the village falls, without the Warden Connor would have kept raising corpses and sending them out to conquer the lands. Now think, Connor was a mage just coming into his power, poorly trained, and that's what he was capable of. Now if you had a fully or even half trained mage in a remote village how much damage could they do before anyone even finds out they're there should the worst happen

Thing is, Connor attracted a demon due more to his access to the halls of power and not his being a mage, though that did factor into it.

It wasn't really being a mage that caught the demon's eye. It was the fact that Connor was a person who could be used for the Desire Demon's purposes.

Granted, he was still a dangerous abomination, but there's also the fact that Redcliffe sent many of its knights away in search of the Urn. Had they not been sent away, things might have been different.

....I wonder why KC Harrith and his Templars didn't help out. Seems like they should've, assuming they were actually in Redcliffe during the time of the attacks. And considering the Mages' Collective had been keeping in contact with him, I think he was.

[TheJediSaint]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

We know nothing about the rate of abominations in Rivain. It might be higher, it might be lower, we don't know. We don't even know the Seers actively seek out spirits to let themselves be possessed. All we know is that tehy allow for themselves to become possessed.

Somehow people get an aweful lot of information out of this, and are quick to declare Rivain for "magetopia", but that is largly unsubstantially supported, and actually downright dimwitted..

That's been pretty much my point the whole time.  There's nothing wrong with beliving that the Chantry's treament of Mages is wrong, but trying to justify that belief using the limited information available about Seers is little more than cherry picking.  Hopefully we will learn more about rivain at a later date so we can better understand what exactly a Rivani Seer actually is.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 10 octobre 2011 - 07:20 .

[billy the squid]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If you want proof of the danger of abominations look at Connor. Look at what he was able to do and how long it took for outside help to arrive. Without the Warden the village falls, without the Warden Connor would have kept raising corpses and sending them out to conquer the lands. Now think, Connor was a mage just coming into his power, poorly trained, and that's what he was capable of. Now if you had a fully or even half trained mage in a remote village how much damage could they do before anyone even finds out they're there should the worst happen

Thing is, Connor attracted a demon due more to his access to the halls of power and not his being a mage, though that did factor into it.

It wasn't really being a mage that caught the demon's eye. It was the fact that Connor was a person who could be used for the Desire Demon's purposes.

The desire demon in the Circle Tower, also says that she experiences what it is to be mortal. I think that gaining access to the mortal world with all of its tangible delights is as much an attraction to demons or why would unrestrained mages be so feared for the potential abomination which can result. They are rarely in a situation of political power or dominance, so it implies it that the demon simply wants access to the mortal realm. Although I agree that Connor being ill trained had little to do with the level of damage the demon inflicted. That has more to do with the demon's power, Connor's lack of training simply made him an easy target.

Yet, I don't think Connor was in a place of political power, after all with his father incapacitated his mother would take control until he is of age, or perhaps Ser Perth would become the boy's guardian ad litem.

Modifié par billy the squid, 10 octobre 2011 - 07:25 .

[TEWR]

billy the squid wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If you want proof of the danger of abominations look at Connor. Look at what he was able to do and how long it took for outside help to arrive. Without the Warden the village falls, without the Warden Connor would have kept raising corpses and sending them out to conquer the lands. Now think, Connor was a mage just coming into his power, poorly trained, and that's what he was capable of. Now if you had a fully or even half trained mage in a remote village how much damage could they do before anyone even finds out they're there should the worst happen

Thing is, Connor attracted a demon due more to his access to the halls of power and not his being a mage, though that did factor into it.

It wasn't really being a mage that caught the demon's eye. It was the fact that Connor was a person who could be used for the Desire Demon's purposes.

The desire demon in the Circle Tower, also says that she experiences what it is to be mortal. I think that gaining access to the mortal world with all of its tangible delights is as much an attraction to demons or why would unrestrained mages be so feared for the potential abomination which can result. They are rarely in a situation of political power or dominance, so it implies it that the demon simply wants access to the mortal realm. Although I agree that Connor being ill trained had little to do with the level of damage the demon inflicted. That has more to do with the demon's power, Connor's lack of training simply made him an easy target.

Yet, I don't think Connor was in a place of political power, after all with his father incapacitated his mother would take control until he is of age, or perhaps Ser Perth would become the boy's guardian ad litem.

I don't think the demon knew that, or if she did she probably would have orchestrated something to allow for Connor to become the new Arl.

A barely trained mage child that could become an Arl stressed by his father's lapse into a coma is not only an easy target, but also a lucky one for a demon.

[TheJediSaint]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Thing is, Connor attracted a demon due more to his access to the halls of power and not his being a mage, though that did factor into it.

It wasn't really being a mage that caught the demon's eye. It was the fact that Connor was a person who could be used for the Desire Demon's purposes.

Granted, he was still a dangerous abomination, but there's also the fact that Redcliffe sent many of its knights away in search of the Urn. Had they not been sent away, things might have been different.

....I wonder why KC Harrith and his Templars didn't help out. Seems like they should've, assuming they were actually in Redcliffe during the time of the attacks. And considering the Mages' Collective had been keeping in contact with him, I think he was.

I think part of the issue with Connor was that his emotional distress acted like a beacon, attracting demons from the Fade.  Connor may very well have also been an innately powerful mage, hence why his posseession caused so much trouble.

[dragonflight288]

I think it was a combination of being a mage, the son of a powerful arl, and the possibility of the Desire Demon gaining the power of the arldom with so many cut off from Connor. And if Ser Harrith was in Redcliff, he and his templars were likely fighting zombies and undead until the Warden got there.

Ser Perth and his highly trained knights couldn't break down the gates into the castle, they needed the Warden to sneak in and open it up from the inside.

[TEWR]

TheJediSaint wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

We know nothing about the rate of abominations in Rivain. It might be higher, it might be lower, we don't know. We don't even know the Seers actively seek out spirits to let themselves be possessed. All we know is that tehy allow for themselves to become possessed.

Somehow people get an aweful lot of information out of this, and are quick to declare Rivain for "magetopia", but that is largly unsubstantially supported, and actually downright dimwitted..

That's been pretty much my point the whole time.  There's nothing wrong with beliving that the Chantry's treament of Mages is wrong, but trying to justify that belief using the limited information available about Seers is little more than cherry picking.  Hopefully we will learn more about rivain at a later date so we can better understand what exactly a Rivani Seer actually is.

I think it points to them knowing arcane arts that most of Thedas doesn't know or has cast aside. The DAII collector's edition guide says that they converse with spirits and, as Emp said, allow themselves to be possessed.

Now, if they are conversing with spirits like Justice, Faith, and Valor then that's something seeing as how Justice and a few codexes IIRC said that benign spirits rarely if ever deign to interact with mortals.

It's obviously not going to be a magetopia because Abominations will inevitably happen, but I think it is safe to say that they do have less Abominations. The Chantry doesn't have a presence in Rivain according to the wiki, which means no Templars. The only Templar-like groups we know of (and yes I know those three words are the key words) are in the Qunari sections of Rivain, but the others believe in the Natural Order.

But we've also been told that Abominations can level cities in the blink of an eye (something gameplay contradicts instead of reflects). I think if they truly had more Abominations than anywhere else, Rivain wouldn't exist anymore.

So they either have the same amount of Abominations or they have less.

[Gervaise]

Whilst some elements of the population are attached to their Seers, the influence of the Qunari would surely have decimated mage numbers during their control of the area and linger on in some quarters. The Qunari are even more paranoid than Meredith about mages and possession - you only have to mention you are a mage and they attack - so I imagine the Rivanni Seers were hunted down vigourously. Nor do we know if the Seers live in the community or apart from it and people just visit them when they want information, or even if they are kept confined in some way.

[TEWR]

Gervaise wrote...

Whilst some elements of the population are attached to their Seers, the influence of the Qunari would surely have decimated mage numbers during their control of the area and linger on in some quarters. The Qunari are even more paranoid than Meredith about mages and possession - you only have to mention you are a mage and they attack - so I imagine the Rivanni Seers were hunted down vigourously. Nor do we know if the Seers live in the community or apart from it and people just visit them when they want information, or even if they are kept confined in some way.

Qunari don't waste resources. Mages that submit to the Qun would be leashed with the rest. They probably only kill the mages if they're:

A) Bas
Tal'Vashoth
C) holding a very long conversation with them.

But they don't just kill a mage after finding out someone's a mage. That would be wasteful. I'm sure they operate under the logic of "If you submit to the Qun, you're not possessed. If you don't, you are either a dangerous abomination or a mage who will eventually become one"

[EmperorSahlertz]

A demon isn't attracted to a non-mage. Conner attracted the demon because he was a powerful mage, or at least had the potential for power. Not neccesarily magical power, but worldly power. A demon isn't attracted to a non-mage unless the demon is already within the physical realm.

[TheCreeper]

My issue with siding the Templars is that until the ending, siding wih them would mean be massive hypocrtic since I am either an apostate or have been helping hide an apostate my entire life.

I could side with them at the end were it not for the fact that Meredith was clearly a bit power mad and she was condemning every mage in the circle (which in some playthroughs meant MY SISTER) for the actions of a Mage who was totally outside the circle. Whats worse is the implication she might have sent for it earlier meaning she was going to use what was suppose to be a last resort to route out a few blood mages, both of which are like killing the entire alienage to get a few thieves (or the case of anders, an elf who wasn't even in the alienage) It's hard to side with templars when their leader is using insane troll logic at the end.

[BubbleDncr]

TheCreeper wrote...

My issue with siding the Templars is that until the ending, siding wih them would mean be massive hypocrtic since I am either an apostate or have been helping hide an apostate my entire life.

I could side with them at the end were it not for the fact that Meredith was clearly a bit power mad and she was condemning every mage in the circle (which in some playthroughs meant MY SISTER) for the actions of a Mage who was totally outside the circle. Whats worse is the implication she might have sent for it earlier meaning she was going to use what was suppose to be a last resort to route out a few blood mages, both of which are like killing the entire alienage to get a few thieves (or the case of anders, an elf who wasn't even in the alienage) It's hard to side with templars when their leader is using insane troll logic at the end.

This is pretty much my feelings. My first playthrough was as a mage...thus, an apostate mage. So Bioware pretty much forces any mage player to believe that being in the circle is terrible - otherwise they would give you the option to join the circle and thus..end the game. 

In regards to Bethany, they still make you not want Bethany to go to the Circle - when the templars come for her, all your dialogue choices are different tones of daying "you can't do this to bethany!" I got around this in my evil mage hating playthrough by letting her die in the deep roads (tho Hawke was still way too sad over her death), but in my "good person who's a firm believer in the chantry's teaching," I really had to stretch logic to come up with reasons why I wouldn't have told Bethany to go to the Circle. 

When exactly did the devs say that they wanted most people to side with the Templars? I must have missed that. But if that is the case, they couldn't have expected anyone who played as a mage to do so, since that's hypocrtical to the entire game. And they should have given warrior and rogue players the ability to express their templar support in Act 1 - at the very least by letting you support the templars taking her away, but I would even go so far as to give you the option to turn her in if you wanted to. It wouldn't have changed that much, really. 

They also shouldn't have made Meridth so nutso at the end. I mean, my evil mage hating character had no problem killing all the mages for what Anders did, but my devout, andraste-loving warrior would still have a hard time believeing that's what's right - murdering innocents for one man's actions. 

[DPSSOC]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If you want proof of the danger of abominations look at Connor. Look at what he was able to do and how long it took for outside help to arrive. Without the Warden the village falls, without the Warden Connor would have kept raising corpses and sending them out to conquer the lands. Now think, Connor was a mage just coming into his power, poorly trained, and that's what he was capable of. Now if you had a fully or even half trained mage in a remote village how much damage could they do before anyone even finds out they're there should the worst happen

Thing is, Connor attracted a demon due more to his access to the halls of power and not his being a mage, though that did factor into it.

It wasn't really being a mage that caught the demon's eye. It was the fact that Connor was a person who could be used for the Desire Demon's purposes.

Granted, he was still a dangerous abomination, but there's also the fact that Redcliffe sent many of its knights away in search of the Urn. Had they not been sent away, things might have been different.

All true, but I brought him up simply to illustrate what a weak (Connor was just showing signs of magic), poorly trained mage is capable of if (I can't stress that word enough) they became possessed.  Connor was able to raise hordes of undead night after night.  Imagine what could have happened if Connor had been a fully trained mage at the height of his power. 

[Urazz]

DPSSOC wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If you want proof of the danger of abominations look at Connor. Look at what he was able to do and how long it took for outside help to arrive. Without the Warden the village falls, without the Warden Connor would have kept raising corpses and sending them out to conquer the lands. Now think, Connor was a mage just coming into his power, poorly trained, and that's what he was capable of. Now if you had a fully or even half trained mage in a remote village how much damage could they do before anyone even finds out they're there should the worst happen

Thing is, Connor attracted a demon due more to his access to the halls of power and not his being a mage, though that did factor into it.

It wasn't really being a mage that caught the demon's eye. It was the fact that Connor was a person who could be used for the Desire Demon's purposes.

Granted, he was still a dangerous abomination, but there's also the fact that Redcliffe sent many of its knights away in search of the Urn. Had they not been sent away, things might have been different.

All true, but I brought him up simply to illustrate what a weak (Connor was just showing signs of magic), poorly trained mage is capable of if (I can't stress that word enough) they became possessed.  Connor was able to raise hordes of undead night after night.  Imagine what could have happened if Connor had been a fully trained mage at the height of his power. 

I don't think it would change much as the demon probably has full access to the mage's power regardless of if the mage is trained and fully realized his/her potential.  The abomination would still get a big power increase though as it would have it's power on top of the mage's power, fully realized or not.  That's the way I see it at least.

Anyways, the only time I could really side with the templars was on my playthrough when my warrior Hawke lost Bethany in the deep roads and got distrustful of most mages after Leandra died.  Other than that, I always ended up siding with the mages in the end because of Meredith and her reasons for calling for the right of annulment was wrong.

Modifié par Urazz, 11 octobre 2011 - 04:05 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

DPSSOC wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If you want proof of the danger of abominations look at Connor. Look at what he was able to do and how long it took for outside help to arrive. Without the Warden the village falls, without the Warden Connor would have kept raising corpses and sending them out to conquer the lands. Now think, Connor was a mage just coming into his power, poorly trained, and that's what he was capable of. Now if you had a fully or even half trained mage in a remote village how much damage could they do before anyone even finds out they're there should the worst happen

Thing is, Connor attracted a demon due more to his access to the halls of power and not his being a mage, though that did factor into it.

It wasn't really being a mage that caught the demon's eye. It was the fact that Connor was a person who could be used for the Desire Demon's purposes.

Granted, he was still a dangerous abomination, but there's also the fact that Redcliffe sent many of its knights away in search of the Urn. Had they not been sent away, things might have been different.

All true, but I brought him up simply to illustrate what a weak (Connor was just showing signs of magic), poorly trained mage is capable of if (I can't stress that word enough) they became possessed.  Connor was able to raise hordes of undead night after night.  Imagine what could have happened if Connor had been a fully trained mage at the height of his power. 

You could turn around the Connor situation by making the argument that Isolde wouldn't have had a reason to hide Connor if he wasn't to be completely disinherited, stripped from his family, and taken to a place where helmeted mooks guarded him with anything from suspicion to thinly-veiled hatred, or if the stigmatization of magic was not actively promoted by the local religion. That doesn't mean there wasn't anything dangerous about Connor, but Isolde's position, while disastrous in its consequences, wasn't entirely without merit. A caring mother wouldn't want their child imprisoned. 

[Urzon]

With all the talk about Conner showing us how much of a threat abominations are, why hasn't Kirkwall been overrun and it's population killed again?

Kirkwall is a big city, and it has many hiding places. It has been show that abominations can hide just about anywhere in the city. If the Desire demon in Conner could kill most of the people in castle; it then used that to make a zombie horde to nearly wipeout Redcliff, why hasn't that happened in Kirkwall yet?

All it would take is one covert abomination in Darktown. With all the lore saying that one could take out a town easily; all it would have to do is run threw Darktown killing everyone in sight, and then procede to animate all the corpses (and maybe start pulling more demons threw the Veil). With it's going horde, it could then kill off the rest of Darktown, and it could then move to the streets of Lowtown and start killing and animating there.

While (i assume) Meredith's templars are some of the best trained in Thedas, a zombie horde is a zombie horde. With Kirkwall being so densely populated, they size of the horde would be constantly growing as it moved along. The Templars and the City Guard would be hard pressed to be able to stop it at a certain point.

So, i ask again. With all the abominations running around, why isn't Kirkwall a fiery zombie hellscape again?

[Herr Uhl]

Urzon wrote...

With all the abominations running around, why isn't Kirkwall a fiery zombie hellscape again?

Templars my boy. Templars.

Edit: They have an unusually large supply as it is the main base of operations for the east.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 11 octobre 2011 - 05:17 .

[Urzon]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Urzon wrote...

With all the abominations running around, why isn't Kirkwall a fiery zombie hellscape again?

Templars my boy. Templars.

Edit: They have an unusually large supply as it is the main base of operations for the east.

Unless they are going against a mage, a templar is just a man/women with thick armor and a sword. They might have numbers to begin with, but the demon(s) raising all the zombies; they have the whole population of Kirkwall they can kill and convert.

Modifié par Urzon, 11 octobre 2011 - 10:00 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Against any magical foe, be they a mage or a demon, the Templars have an advantage. That is not to say that abominations are the most dire threat a Templar can face, but that is what they are trained for.

[Quething]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Against any magical foe, be they a mage or a demon, the Templars have an advantage. That is not to say that abominations are the most dire threat a Templar can face, but that is what they are trained for.

Against mages, sure.

Demons are a different matter. (For example, they're immune to Silence. Annoyingly <_<)

[slyborg]

I enjoyed DA2 but hated having two decisions that didn't seem right. Either one wasn't. All the mages shouldn't be made tranquil for what one did, nor should they have complete and total reign on their freedom and powers.

I'd like to see some sort of outside group watch the Chantry/Templars. Sort of like a checks and balance system. The Chantry/Templars watch the Mages, but who watches the Templars to prevent injustice since the Chantry isn't doing such a bang up job? Something like an elder council of mages who have proved resistant to demons or something like the sort of group I've written in FF's.

[OBakaSama]

Reading the OP it seems the problem/topic for focus was that BioWare wanted players to side with the Templars more rather than the mages (as it seems the feedback data suggested); then the post proceeded to discuss the relevance of Meredith's character in relation this particular choice with the odd mention of Orsino. As a complete neutral who knew nothing about mages or Templars that discussion would make sense, but the context of the story, the background of the story, a large part of that decision has been somewhat taken away.

BubbleDncr wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

My issue with siding the Templars is that until the ending, siding wih them would mean be massive hypocrtic since I am either an apostate or have been helping hide an apostate my entire life.

I could side with them at the end were it not for the fact that Meredith was clearly a bit power mad and she was condemning every mage in the circle (which in some playthroughs meant MY SISTER) for the actions of a Mage who was totally outside the circle. Whats worse is the implication she might have sent for it earlier meaning she was going to use what was suppose to be a last resort to route out a few blood mages, both of which are like killing the entire alienage to get a few thieves (or the case of anders, an elf who wasn't even in the alienage) It's hard to side with templars when their leader is using insane troll logic at the end.

This is pretty much my feelings. My first playthrough was as a mage...thus, an apostate mage. So Bioware pretty much forces any mage player to believe that being in the circle is terrible - otherwise they would give you the option to join the circle and thus..end the game. 

In regards to Bethany, they still make you not want Bethany to go to the Circle - when the templars come for her, all your dialogue choices are different tones of daying "you can't do this to bethany!" I got around this in my evil mage hating playthrough by letting her die in the deep roads (tho Hawke was still way too sad over her death), but in my "good person who's a firm believer in the chantry's teaching," I really had to stretch logic to come up with reasons why I wouldn't have told Bethany to go to the Circle. 

When exactly did the devs say that they wanted most people to side with the Templars? I must have missed that. But if that is the case, they couldn't have expected anyone who played as a mage to do so, since that's hypocrtical to the entire game. And they should have given warrior and rogue players the ability to express their templar support in Act 1 - at the very least by letting you support the templars taking her away, but I would even go so far as to give you the option to turn her in if you wanted to. It wouldn't have changed that much, really. 

They also shouldn't have made Meridth so nutso at the end. I mean, my evil mage hating character had no problem killing all the mages for what Anders did, but my devout, andraste-loving warrior would still have a hard time believeing that's what's right - murdering innocents for one man's actions. 

I feel that in making the Hawke's as a family who has magic be the protagonists of the story skewers the choice. In order to side with the Templars one has to do some rather imaginative role playing in order to make it work. Hawke themself is either a mage or the elder sibling of a mage, who has spent their life hiding from the Chantry in order to protect either themself or Bethany. Even Carver who for the most part dislikes his elder sibling abandons whatever role he takes up to stand by them during the final battles (though I think there is an option to refuse the help offered); the story actually paints the siblings as being close in this regard despite the apparent dislike they may have shown for each other during the earlier parts of the game.

The whole story set up, the context, seems to make Hawke a mage sympathizer due to their upbringing. Even if Hawke does dislike mages for whatever reason one might wish to roleplay there is still the family bond that is there as a fallback to side with the mages. Siding with the Templars is stretching thing a bit it would seem.

Having stated that, it was fun playing as a mage Hawke siding with the Templars at the final battle and becoming viscount though.

[Urzon]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Against any magical foe, be they a mage or a demon, the Templars have an advantage. That is not to say that abominations are the most dire threat a Templar can face, but that is what they are trained for.

Templars are only trained to combat mages, since all their abilities seem to work at disrupting their connection to the Fade (thus preventing them for casting spells). There is no possible way for a templar to get trained to combat demons and abominations. The best they could do it in theory, because i doubt the Chantry would allow a mage to summon a demon for practice.

I'm not even sure if demons even need a connection to the Fade to cast spells. I would think they would work the same as Justice does, in that they carry around a piece of it with them (since spirits/demons are a part of the Fade). The same would go with abominations, or the abominations would use blood magic to power their spells. Since blood magic is the "physical" school of magic relying soley on blood for casting, it isn't tied to the Fade either. So templar abilities couldn't work on them either.

Plus, zombies aren't a magical foe. They are just animated dead, or corpses with a demon inside of them. All they want to do is ripe you apart, and maybe devour your body if there is a Hunger Demon involved. No magical casting or effects what so ever.

Modifié par Urzon, 11 octobre 2011 - 10:23 .

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

The templars, quite frankly, needed no help whatsoever with Bioware having botched the mage presentation so badly. I'm rather proud of the fact that so many still chose to join the mages.

I wasn't moved by making virtually every mage antagonist insane and stupid, because it dissolved any genuine argument about the dichotomy between mages and templars. I think some others felt the same way about how Gaider and the other writers handled the narrative, which they have continued in Legacy with Anders pro-Chantry comments at the end of the DLC, that make no sense given what he says when Hawke hands him the Tevinter amulet in Act II.

As for the final choice, Meredith's desire to commit genocide against an entire population of mages who were innocent of Anders' actions didn't make sense to me.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That's kind of my point. I found siding with the mages to be the much more obvious choice, and it shouldn't have been. The argument of whether mages should be free or if the Circle system works didn't even really come into play for me because the situtation didn't seem to really be about either question. Krikwall wasn't adhereing to the system properly in the first place.

If the intent was the create a difficult or morally gray choice at the end of the game I'd say the templars were botched even worse than the mages were. You run into a lot of crazy mages and a lot of crazy templars. But at the final decision point, those crazy mages are dead and a crazy templar is asking for your help. Instead, people sided with what they are lead to believe is a sane mage.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 11 octobre 2011 - 04:24 .