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[RagingCyclone]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And yet in Awakening if you let the Messenger live he spreads the taint while helping people. Avernus also never cured the taint. He only prolonged his own life, but sacrificed countless others to do so with his research. As for the eluvian and Merrill...that for some reason doesn't seem consistent with the rest of the lore especially when factoring in Legacy.

The Messenger is a darkspawn. The mirror wasn't. And Avernus should have only had 30 years before he ended up like Larius, but he was sane...more or less. He never claimed to have cured it either, but he did manage to prolong his life and diminish its affects. I don't see how that is inconsistent with Merrill cleansing a small shard of the eluvian.

But with blood magic Avernus did not cure the taint nor end it.  He still dies from it according to him as his time is running out. And if blood magic is the supposed possible cure...then explain without being spoilery why Malcolm did what he did instead of ending the taint? Merrill's case is the exception to the rule regarding the other instances we know of. That's including the Architect and his machinations in both Awakening and The Calling.

[Herr Uhl]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Many posters seem to underestimate TheDas and over-estimate the darkspawn.

The numbers are not the problem...morale and interest are.

Same thing as Russia. They didn't beat back their attackers with superior numbers. The advantage the darkspawn have is that they've already scorched their earth.

There is also the problem with no mapping, collapsed tunnels and also the immensity of the deep roads and thus logistics. It would be a gargantuan undertaking, and unless everyone is made into wardens, many will likely get blighted even trying to get down there. And if they are made into wardens, the numbers get cut, and drastically so.

Edit:

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

remember that Merrill cleansed the shard of the Eluvian using blood magic and Avernus was able to extend his life by manipulating the taint in his blood through blood magic.

Since Merrill went 7 years without being tainted, that's proof that she did in fact cleanse the shard seeing as how elves were corrupted by the remaining parts of the Eluvian 2 years after it was destroyed.

That is one shard given her complete attention. Now apply this to a network of tunnels that spread over a whole continent. See the difference? And Avernus was a warden.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 10 octobre 2011 - 03:11 .

[dragonflight288]

But with blood magic Avernus did not cure the taint nor end it. He still dies from it according to him as his time is running out. And if blood magic is the supposed possible cure...then explain without being spoilery why Malcolm did what he did instead of ending the taint? Merrill's case is the exception to the rule regarding the other instances we know of. That's including the Architect and his machinations in both Awakening and The Calling.

Hmm. How about phsyiology. He's a living person whose entire essence was tainted by the joining. His blood cells regenerate, his immune system can only keep him alive for so long. Get rid of the taint in one cell and a million will replace it.

The mirror shard is not living. What's there is there. Get rid of the taint and nothing is re-tainting it under those circumstances.

Well...it makes a good theory at least. I have no ingame evidence to support it, but in the case of the Messenger, Avernus and the Architect, that is dealing with living people with the taint, not ancient magical items.

With the difference in what was tainted, there may be different rules or something involved.

[Herr Uhl]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Hmm. How about phsyiology. He's a living person whose entire essence was tainted by the joining. His blood cells regenerate, his immune system can only keep him alive for so long. Get rid of the taint in one cell and a million will replace it.

Saying that it is only the taint that sustains him seems like an odd statement. We have other characters that are freakishly old, without taint *points to Zathrian and the Guardian*. Avernus made deals with demons, so thus I imagine his age is more due to the same as Zathrian than due to taint.

[TEWR]

RagingCyclone wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Many posters seem to underestimate TheDas and over-estimate the darkspawn.

The numbers are not the problem...morale and interest are.

There is also one other thing people keep forgetting...the taint itself. Killing the darkspawn as an action itself does not remove the taint. The taint takes over lands, animals, objects (eluvians as an example) and so there would be no realistic way of ending the darkspawn until someone somewhere figures out how to cure the taint itself. While the games do show this (DAO is better than DA2 at showing the taint) the best source of the taint's description is in The Calling. It's the taint that created the darkspawn, and it is the taint that is the true culprit for the blights in DA. The darkspawn, archdemons, and Blights are just the manifestions of the consequences of the taint.

remember that Merrill cleansed the shard of the Eluvian using blood magic and Avernus was able to extend his life by manipulating the taint in his blood through blood magic.

Since Merrill went 7 years without being tainted, that's proof that she did in fact cleanse the shard seeing as how elves were corrupted by the remaining parts of the Eluvian 2 years after it was destroyed.

And yet in Awakening if you let the Messenger live he spreads the taint while helping people. Avernus also never cured the taint. He only prolonged his own life, but sacrificed countless others to do so with his research.  As for the eluvian and  Merrill...that for some reason doesn't seem consistent with the rest of the lore especially when factoring in Legacy.

The Messenger is a Darkspawn though, and blood magic isn't related to him. I never mentioned him, so why was he brought up?

I never said Avernus cured the taint. I said that he extended his life. Dragonflight's theory is much the same as mine. The fact that Avernus is living means that the taint will always be with him, but non-living things can be cured of the taint and made safe again. It's going to be hard to root out the taint in a living body

And how does the Eluvian and Merrill seem to be inconsistent with the rest of the lore?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 octobre 2011 - 03:19 .

[RagingCyclone]

@ Ethereal and dragonflight---this is where I wish this thread was not in a non-spoiler section. There are some things in Legacy that go with Awakening and The Calling that would make this a very good discussion...but trying to avoid spoilers to make the point is difficult here. Such as what the the GW's know about the old gods, some of the knowledge of demons and the taint, and some other factors.
@Ethereal--the reason I brought up the Messenger was a parallel to the spread of the taint like the eluvian had for the two years. (I believe using knowledge from The Calling that blood magic was used to stop his need to heed the call, but in this I could be wrong) Nothing about blood magic per se but as an example of how the taint can be spread especially on the surface.

Modifié par RagingCyclone, 10 octobre 2011 - 03:32 .

[dragonflight288]

We can continue this discussion later in PMs or in a spoiler thread, but back on topic, the people who want to collapse the deep roads would find swift and deadly opposition from Orzammar and Kal Sharok. Kal Sharok is deep in the Deep Roads (pun initially not intended), and most Dwarves hold their history as greater things of value than ANYTHING the Surface has to offer, even if it means survival.

[Mr.House]

Let's say there is an full front assault on the Deeproads, you kill all the darkspawn and broodmothers you find, but you forget to kill one Broodmother. Yo think your done? Guess? You just wasted resources.

Modifié par Mr.House, 10 octobre 2011 - 07:43 .

[thats1evildude]

Although the discussion has moved in a somewhat different direction, I will note that humanity as a whole thought the darkspawn would never return as a threat following the Fourth Blight, as they slaughtered so many darkspawn at the Battle of Ayesleigh (and throughout the Blight) that everyone thought the species could never recover.

[Lotion Soronarr]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Many posters seem to underestimate TheDas and over-estimate the darkspawn.

The numbers are not the problem...morale and interest are.

There is also one other thing people keep forgetting...the taint itself. Killing the darkspawn as an action itself does not remove the taint. The taint takes over lands, animals, objects (eluvians as an example) and so there would be no realistic way of ending the darkspawn until someone somewhere figures out how to cure the taint itself. While the games do show this (DAO is better than DA2 at showing the taint) the best source of the taint's description is in The Calling. It's the taint that created the darkspawn, and it is the taint that is the true culprit for the blights in DA. The darkspawn, archdemons, and Blights are just the manifestions of the consequences of the taint.

People just don't become tainted like that. Usually it requires contracting it trough open wounds.

And it doens't matter if the taint remains if you kill off all the broodmothers. The Darkspawn can't reproduce normally.

[atheelogos]

Fasty1 wrote...

Sorry for posting here but i dont meet the reqs to post in the campaign forum. First off why havent all the humans in Thedas organized an army to go into the Deep Roads and wipe out all the darkspawn? Surely wouldnt this prevent the next two blights?

The Deep Roads are too large for that. I'm sure that's what they did in the last blight and if you play a Dwarf in DAO you can ask Alistair to do that, but they only have so many men. And staying down there too long and fighting darkspawn for too long will just get others infected with the blight.

[BlackEmperor]

Others mentioned interest and morale as major issues to fielding an army large enough to accomplish a definitive end to the darkspawn in the Deep Roads. I'll add a third: money. Who in Thedas has the financial resources to keep a large enough force on such a lengthy campaign?

And if it's truly an army from all of Thedas, who is going to pay how much? How do you determine which nations are contributing their fair share of soldiers and resources? The biggest obstacle to such a campaign may be the biggest obstacle you faced in Origins: politics.

[Wereparrot]

BlackEmperor wrote...


And if it's truly an army from all of Thedas, who is going to pay how much? How do you determine which nations are contributing their fair share of soldiers and resources? The biggest obstacle to such a campaign may be the biggest obstacle you faced in Origins: politics.

Yeah, but such alliances have happened in the real world, so I'm sure they could also be negotiated in Thedas aswell. If an alliance could be negotiated, and with the Wardens' aid, then a push through the Deep Roads to seek out and destroy the remaining archdemons, and kill as many darkspawn and broodmothers along the way. In theory. And I think this theory is worth testing. The best form of defence is attack.