30 réponses à ce sujet

[matt_govett]

 Any advice? or tips?

[voidcommander9111980]

The thing is simple ...

Modifié par voidcommander9111980, 22 novembre 2009 - 11:21 .

[voidcommander9111980]

Rogue is for dual wield !!!

Warrior is for two hander sword (DPS)

or sword with shield (TANK)

Joker out

[Varenus Luckmann]

Rogue. Definately rogue. I'm not going to pretend that I have actually tried a duel-wield warrior or pull out numbers, but I simply cannot fathom anything more raepage than a dual-wield, backstabbing rogue.

[Zenthar Aseth]

Warrior. Berserk+Reaver specialization.

[WillieStyle]

Warrior if you want to tank, replacing shale or Allistair. Rogue if you want straight up dps. Both are good as dps, and the rogue can also be used to tank if you optimize it properly but the warrior is a little better at tanking while the rogue is a little better at dps.



Also depends on the playstyle you enjoy.

If you like micro-managing your main character, keeping her behind enemies and popping stealth when the turn on you, then go rogue.

If you prefer just wading into the thick of things and don't want to worry about flanking enemies or drawing aggro, then go warrior.

[therealmikeg]

Rogue gets backstab. The choice is obvious.

[Foxd1e]

Needs more cowbell

[Darkrhayne]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Warrior. Berserk+Reaver specialization.

From what I have seen, this constant damage eclipses the situational damage that backstab can do.

[Loc'n'lol]

It all comes down to the class-specific talents and the specializations you want to use. The damage output will be comparable, in the end.

[Discobird]

Darkrhayne wrote...

From what I have seen, this constant damage eclipses the situational damage that backstab can do.

Backstabs aren't really situational if you have a tank around

[Sharog]

with respec mods i tested out both builds, dw warrior with zerker/reaver puts out 20% more dmg average than a duelist/assasin rogue that does nothing but backstabbing.



this dmg is significantly in warrior's favor when the group gets surrounded, hitting 8+ target with Whirlwind for over 100+100 each is beyond crazy.



How ever rogue offers alot other useful utility.

[Discobird]

I'm pretty skeptical that a min/maxed DW warrior can beat a min/maxed DW rogue in single-target DPS.

Berserk adds a flat 8 damage per hit, no scaling. Reaver adds between 0-10 damage depending on your health (at 1% health it adds 9.9 damage). Warriors also get an extra 3.6 damage from levelups as compared to rouges. So lets say warriors get 22 points bonus damage for good measure.

Meanwhile a level 18 dagger/dagger cun build is getting about 24 extra damage from the backstab mult alone, plus 18 damage from Tainted Blood and 13 from Exploit Weakness. That's 55 bonus damage that warriors will never see.

Even if we let the warrior dual-wield Starfang somehow, I think that only adds something like 15-20 more damage/hit as compared to a warrior dual-wielding daggers, at the cost of attacking 30% slower.

As for whirlwind, I dont' know, the 40s cooldown and deceptively small radius kinda kill it for me. I'd rather use DW sweep two or three times.

Modifié par Discobird, 22 novembre 2009 - 07:06 .

[WillieStyle]

Discobird wrote...

I'm pretty skeptical that a min/maxed DW warrior can beat a min/maxed DW rogue in single-target DPS.

Berserk adds a flat 8 damage per hit, no scaling. Reaver adds between 0-10 damage depending on your health (at 1% health it adds 9.9 damage). Warriors also get an extra 3.6 damage from levelups as compared to rouges. So lets say warriors get 22 points bonus damage for good measure.

Meanwhile a level 18 dagger/dagger cun build is getting about 24 extra damage from the backstab mult alone, plus 18 damage from Tainted Blood and 13 from Exploit Weakness. That's 55 bonus damage that warriors will never see.

You overstate things somewhat.
First of all, the above is only accurate if the dual-wield warrior never crits.  This isn't the case of course.
Also, can't warriors get Tainted Blood?

Modifié par WillieStyle, 22 novembre 2009 - 07:13 .

[Discobird]

Tainted Blood is a rogue-only DLC ability. Warriors get some kind of speed boost, but I'm tentatively assuming that doesn't stack with Momentum since Haste supposedly doesn't.



Let' say the warrior crits 25% of the time (is that realistic?) and has a 2.0 crit damage multiplier. That's still only adding about 10 expected damage a hit for the starfang/starfang warrior (more like 6 for a dagger/dagger warrior). Still not close to closing the gap.

[GilgameshXD]

It's probably unfair to give the warrior 9.9 damage boost from blood frenzy as well, you're not exactly at 1% all the time.

[Taritu]

Not sure which one is higher dps, but both are more than viable. I've gone all the way through the game with a dw warrior, and she was a threshing machine. Could easily solo ogre lieutenants.

[Sharog]

Discobird wrote...

I'm pretty skeptical that a min/maxed DW warrior can beat a min/maxed DW rogue in single-target DPS.

Berserk adds a flat 8 damage per hit, no scaling. Reaver adds between 0-10 damage depending on your health (at 1% health it adds 9.9 damage). Warriors also get an extra 3.6 damage from levelups as compared to rouges. So lets say warriors get 22 points bonus damage for good measure.

Meanwhile a level 18 dagger/dagger cun build is getting about 24 extra damage from the backstab mult alone, plus 18 damage from Tainted Blood and 13 from Exploit Weakness. That's 55 bonus damage that warriors will never see.

Even if we let the warrior dual-wield Starfang somehow, I think that only adds something like 15-20 more damage/hit as compared to a warrior dual-wielding daggers, at the cost of attacking 30% slower.

As for whirlwind, I dont' know, the 40s cooldown and deceptively small radius kinda kill it for me. I'd rather use DW sweep two or three times.

Just in theory warrior has tainted blood ability as well, it doesnt add much to att speed, but it does add to DMG + CRIT , i dont see how that comes in to the play, also the warrior dmg u are calculating are not taking their Crit chance in to consideration, with buffs one can easily hit 40% crit rate. (just by estimate even if the multiplier is only 1.5, 40% crit rate increase dmg on average by 20% while most likely u gonna duelwield verhielle and starfang + warden armor etc for more crit multiplier) a backstab rogue on the other hand benefit nothing from crits chance.  And in a practical sense, a rogue tend to have paralyzing runes on mainhand, it is just unpractical to assume any tank is able to hold all the mobs at any given moment. and due to backstab never use offhand runes,  and dw warrior use them, that also should be taken in to consideration.

Although in the end it all comes down to practise, my testing is simple, i fight against a dungeon of mobs playing to the best of my ability using either the dw war or bs rogue, and then compare to the dmg done using the same party, and let the script handle the rest of the party and play only the war or rogue in question. it is easy to test this urself. 

I believe a large amount of dmg from war comes to the fact that most of the mob packs contains tons of mobs with health lower than 300 (this is lvl 20 ish). and they just die from whirlwind + duel hand sweep instantly, which gives warrior a large amount of burst dmg in the start of any given fight.


PS: a war tend to have tons more att rating compare to a cunning rogue.


PSS: im still skeptical about backstabbing only use MH wpn, the dmg variation is way too big from hits to hits, i tend to think only the rune proc is bugged but the actuall backstab still use both MH and OH wpn in a rotating fashion. although more testing is required.

Modifié par Sharog, 22 novembre 2009 - 07:38 .

[WillieStyle]

Discobird wrote...

Tainted Blood is a rogue-only DLC ability. Warriors get some kind of speed boost, but I'm tentatively assuming that doesn't stack with Momentum since Haste supposedly doesn't.

Let' say the warrior crits 25% of the time (is that realistic?) and has a 2.0 crit damage multiplier. That's still only adding about 10 expected damage a hit for the starfang/starfang warrior (more like 6 for a dagger/dagger warrior). Still not close to closing the gap.

Oh I wasn't arguing that the warrior was ahead, just hat you overstated the difference somewhat.
If only dual-striking wasn't bugged; that would make things interesting.

Modifié par WillieStyle, 22 novembre 2009 - 07:37 .

[WillieStyle]

We should also consider, that one of the biggest factors to dps is time-on-target. Not having to strafe around to get into a flanking position is a big advantage. Particularly against mobs that die quickly. Furthermore, vanishing.. um I mean combat stealth resets your swing timer I believe. This also reduces dps.



From my WoW days as a comat rogue, I know that even reducing time-on-target by a second or two can reduce dps significantly. This is especially true in short fights with plenty of target switching which describes about 90% of all combat in DA:O.

[Discobird]

I'm not doubting your personal experiences, but it's hard to draw any conclusions from it without knowing your builds and to some extent your party makeup (cunning rogues in particular benefit a lot from +attack rating buffs from party members).



I thought warriors get Blood Thirst and Blood Fury, not Tainted Blood? Even if they used Tainted Blood they would only get half the benefit as the rogue due to much lower cunning.



Crits only multiply your weapon's base damage + attribute bonus. They don't multiply anything else (so no double damage Reaver bonus, for example). For a DW warrior with 80 str and Starfang, his expected base damage + attribute bonus is going to be about 40. So even with a 40% crit rate and a 2.0 crit damage multiplier, he's only getting an extra 16 expected damage per hit due to crits. Still a pretty big gap with the rogue. (22 + 16) * 0.7 (for the slower attack speed compared to dagger/dagger) < 55.



Why would a rogue use paralysis runes? You can't depend on them to save you if your tank loses aggro (they don't proc reliably enough). That's what Combat Stealth is for. DW rogues should stack elemental runes in their mainhand. Also, the fact that backstabs don' use offhand runes is plus for rogues since their backstabs always use the mainhand rune instead (even when the offhand is attacking). Thus they can put defensive runes in their offhand weapon for "free" without sacrificing mainhand damage.

[Discobird]

WillieStyle wrote...

We should also consider, that one of the biggest factors to dps is time-on-target. Not having to strafe around to get into a flanking position is a big advantage.

Yeah this is true, albeit pretty much impossible to quantify  In practice I think this would be the biggest factor in the warrior/rogue matchup.  Good point to bring up.

Furthermore, vanishing.. um I mean combat stealth resets your swing timer I believe. This also reduces dps.

Actually it doesn't--you can stealth while swinging and it's as if nothing happened, your swing doesn't get interrupted or reset.  Pretty handy since it still kills aggro even if you were only stealthed for a split second.

[Sharog]

what i ment is a similar ability to tainted blood, in this case it is called blood thirst. i believe it is very similar to tainted blood for rogue in term of dmg increase. hence should nullify that particular benefit.

The reason one would use paralyzing runes is at any given moment fighting an enemy archer or caster they are likely to not have higher agro towards ur tank than ur rogue which is trying to backstab them, due to the slow attack speed on ur tank it is unpractical to wait for him to engage an enemy ranged unit first since u could already have killed it by then.

My party setup is simple, 1 Champion war, 1 Bard archer, 1 mage + PC which can be specced in to war or rogue, the buffs are rally, song of courage and telekinetic wpn. this is pretty much the best buffs u can get at any given point.

due to how fast mobs die in DAO, it really shrink rogues dmg by a large amount due to the travel distance to get in to a flanking position. not to mention against ranged units it is even impossible to backstab unless u get in to stealth first. which slows down ur movement speed even more. and against melee unit, area effect attacks favors warriors by a large amount.


PS: In a group environment, a DW warrior can be put in to auto-script and still melt face, while a rogue in auto-script is worse than an archer pre dex fix.

Modifié par Sharog, 22 novembre 2009 - 07:52 .

[WillieStyle]

Actually it doesn't--you can stealth while swinging and it's as if nothing happened, your swing doesn't get interrupted or reset. Pretty handy since it still kills aggro even if you were only stealthed for a split second.

You know you're right. Just tested it right now. Stealthed to drop aggro and crit the enemy before he had time to turn to face my tank.

what i ment is a similar ability to tainted blood, in this case it is called blood thirst. i believe it is very similar to tainted blood for rogue in term of dmg increase.

What does blood thirst do?

My party setup is simple, 1 Champion war, 1 Bard archer, 1 mage + PC which can be specced in to war or rogue, the buffs are rally, song of courage and telekinetic wpn. this is pretty much the best buffs u can get at any given point.

Why not drop the bard and pick up another mage. Seems to me flaming/freezing weapons would do more than song of courage unless you need the +hit which I doubt you do.