46 réponses à ce sujet

[Squidmaster]

Hi everyone.  I just got DA:O for my birthday recently and got started with a mage.  My original plan was to build a wilderness (Dalish, right?) elf in a thematic druidish sort of way, using elemental and nature type spells.  Then I read one of the class guides that included mage info, and it made the creation spells look pretty bad with only a couple exceptions.  Should I trust the guide, or is it perhaps out of date with patch updates and the like?

I had also initially thought about the shapeshifter specialization, but once I read about it I turned away, as I want to cast spells a lot, at least for this runthrough.  My new plan is to go spirit healer.  Should I take a second specialization ultimately or is that purely optional?

I'd love some advice and help on getting things in line.  If I can retool but do it with an interesting theme in mind, that is great.  Given that this game is story driven, I would like to have a concept that is powerful, but beyond just taking the most powerful stuff because it is there.  I want a reason.  

Thanks!

[BlackEmperor]

The creation school, as the name implies, is not great for damage. The glyph line is fantastic for crowd control, and the healing line... heals, so there's nothing wrong with that. I haven't used much of the other stuff in that school, so I can't comment on it.

I don't know what counts as "druidish" in your mind, so hard to say. But if you're going spirit healer, you could do an entire spirit theme with stuff from the spirit school. Some great spells to be had there in the form of crushing prison, mana clash, and virulent walking bomb (you'll want glyphs, sleep, cone of cold, mass paralysis or some combination thereof to keep the latter from blowing up in your face, naturally, on either yourself or a companion mage).

Or you could specialize in the primal school, unleashing the forces of nature with blizzards and infernos. The Storm of the Century combo (Spell Might + Blizzard + Tempest) is always a classic.

Either way you can go with the Keeper spec in Awakening, which is a dalish elf mage spec and probably exactly what you're looking for to round out the theme. If none of the other specs in Origins interest you, you could also go Battle Mage in Awakening for yet more force-of-nature damage, including the ubber amazing Elemental Chaos, which is so ridiculous that I only ever used it twice.

Yes, a second spec is purely optional. A first spec is purely optional, too, in my opinion. Mages are flexible.

[TBastian]

A good Shapeshifter never remains shifted for very long, if the developers wanted Shapeshifters to rely on autoattacks you'd think they'd have already implemented that the last two times they patched the spec. Shapeshifters are closer to 2nd edition druids, who use their forms to complement their casting instead of the 3.5 or 4th edition variety (who get the Natural Spell feat, allowing them to cast while shifted) or the WoW variety.

Primal is easily the most "druidic" spell school, followed by Creation. As far as healing is concerned the only spells you really need are Heal and Group Heal (Spirit Healer). Regeneration is nice, but not terribly necessary. Druids are traditionally a nuker class with heals, so these two schools will be enough for your needs both RP and gameplay wise.
If you wanna take into account the fact that Druids also have necromantic spells (Harm, Slay Living) then you can take one or two spells from the Entropy school, like the Hexes. Druids have also traditionally been capable of casting very powerful buffs not available to other casters. Feel free to take Spell Might (and even Mana Clash) and Force Field from the Spirit school.

Modifié par TBastian, 12 octobre 2011 - 11:05 .

[Squidmaster]

Yes, my vision for a druid is more or less the elemental and natural spell caster. I enjoy tactical play, so I think I will take those glyphs. Since my initial posting, I have maxed out the frost and earth lines, so I have a shatter combo plus a few decent CC options, and I have the heal spell in creation. Next up I figure I will either take more heals or take glyphs. Probably the glyphs. I have read how great crushing prison is, but it in a line of spells that thematically don't seem to fit to my mind, at least at the moment. I can take it with Morrigan perhaps.

My current issue is knowing what guides I can or cannot trust based on age or modern thinking changes. I am also not sure how to test what version of the game I am running. I am pretty sure I am patched, but I can't see confirmation of that anywhere that I have seen.

I have a couple specific questions now that I am level 7 and have seen a few things in the game.

1. Can I get my specialization at any level or do I need to jump on it right at level 7? I only know (I think) of one that I could get at this point, and I don't necessarily want it. I also don't want to use too heavy a hand on looking things up. I am prone to do that sometimes and I am trying to just go with the flow for this play through as much as possible.

2. Are there any good guides on how to build up Morrigan? She seems to start with so many diverse things that it is honestly a little confusing. I have a sketch in my head of what I want to do I think but I wouldn't mind some opinions.  Her stats are also throwing me a bit.  She seems to have points everywhere.  Would she make a good caster who can turn into a backup tank if guys run at me from behind or whatever?

Modifié par Squidmaster, 12 octobre 2011 - 08:28 .

[termokanden]

1. You can save your specialization points for later if you wish. There's no rush. I had to do that on my first playthrough since I hadn't unlocked them all yet.

2. Morrigan isn't a good tank. How you want to build her depends heavily on your main character's build. You might want to think about combos. In general it's good to have Force Field, glyphs, hexes, Heal, Regeneration and perhaps also Group Heal. You might want to think about giving some of those to your main character and some of them to Morrigan. I have also used her in the past to set up Storm of the Century (for example, you could cast Blizzard since you have that, and then Morrigan could cast Spell Might and Tempest).

But yeah, in the beginning her spell selection is all over the place. But when it comes to mage stats, I always put every single point into Magic. More powerful spells, more mana per potion (and you can make insane amounts of lesser mana potions for almost no money).

Modifié par termokanden, 12 octobre 2011 - 09:09 .

[Squidmaster]

Huh, so less with the 2-1 willpower deal I've read about eh? That is what I have been doing with my main character.

I have another question about parties in general. So far I have added anyone to my group who I am able to add. Is this expected or are their consequences. For instance, do camped members care about other players, or will someone in my party take issue with adding someone, then pushing that new person to the bench before even doing anything? The reason I ask is that I am concerned about Morrigan. I think I want to hold onto her as she is intriguing, but it also seems that she takes offense to just about anything. I've lost rep with her for saying hello a couple of times basically. If I add someone she doesn't like but not use that player, is she gonna flip out anyway?

Oh, and do camped players keep pace with player levels or do you need to stick to a plan to get the most from your team?

Modifié par Squidmaster, 12 octobre 2011 - 10:03 .

[BlackEmperor]

Ditto what termokanden said about building Morrigan to compliment your build. Using Glyph of Paralysis and Glyph of Repulsion to create a Paralysis Explosion is another tactic favored by people who hate the casting time of Mass Paralysis. Having Morrigan cast one of those glyphs and then you casting the other can help speed up the process. And having her set to heal is always a help when heal is on cooldown for you.

Morrigan is a bit more temperamental than most, but that might be due to your playstyle. If you're out to play the honorable and selfless type, she's not going to approve because she subscribes to a different philosophy. Every character has their hang ups. Sten won't approve of anything that involves magic. Zevran doesn't approve of anything that involves harming elves. Etc. You can always give her gifts to raise approval if you're concerned about that.

You can recruit (almost) anybody without consequence. So don't worry about it. They don't have any reactions to how often you choose them for your party or anything like that.

If I understand it correctly, whenever you level up, the game checks to see if anyone in your party is more than one level behind, and if they are, they level up as well. Therefore characters you use regularly will be slightly ahead of the game experience-wise, but really, it doesn't matter. Use whoever you want, whenever you want.

[termokanden]

Squidmaster wrote...

Huh, so less with the 2-1 willpower deal I've read about eh? That is what I have been doing with my main character.

Well there has been quite some debate about that. Some of us have found the willpower to be unnecessary, especially in the long run, but others think it's needed.

To avoid that whole discussion here, I'll just say that I've tried both approaches, and they both work just fine. 

I have another question about parties in general. So far I have added anyone to my group who I am able to add. Is this expected or are their consequences. For instance, do camped members care about other players, or will someone in my party take issue with adding someone, then pushing that new person to the bench before even doing anything? The reason I ask is that I am concerned about Morrigan. I think I want to hold onto her as she is intriguing, but it also seems that she takes offense to just about anything. I've lost rep with her for saying hello a couple of times basically. If I add someone she doesn't like but not use that player, is she gonna flip out anyway?

It IS possible to lose a character by accepting another character. I won't spoil how it can happen, but it will be extremely obvious when and if it does. You can't say you weren't warned if it did. In general though, party members might object to someone joining your party sometimes and you lose approval. Once. No big deal.

You can also lose characters through certain actions, but again you will be warned plenty about this.

Simply letting some characters sit in camp while you are out adventuring is not a problem at all. So in general, don't worry too much about it. Try to figure out what they all like to hear and what kind of gifts they want. If you have that covered, you don't need to worry about someone disagreeing with a few decisions.

Last but not least: Morrigan at first seems tough to deal with. But you just have to understand her mindset. She respects personal strength and doesn't want you helping strangers at every turn. They have to deal with it for themselves. She hates the Circle and the idea that mages have to be controlled. If you want her approval, agree with her about these things and help her when she asks for your help. And Morrigan can actually leave if you say no! Most importantly of all: Morrigan likes shiny things as gifts.

Oh, and do camped players keep pace with player levels or do you need to stick to a plan to get the most from your team?

As BlackEmperor said, they do scale with the player so there isn't anything to worry about there. Doesn't matter at all if they are one level behind. Matters more that you're using the characters that you want to use.

Modifié par termokanden, 12 octobre 2011 - 11:35 .

[Squidmaster]

Very interesting. Thanks a ton. I am trying to formulate a character for my guy, and in the early stages I admit it is a little bit in flux. The trouble is that I can find no information about the family I allegedly come from as an elf mage. I went in with the mindset that I would be one of the wild elves, but I haven't yet worked out how much I remember about it, or exactly how that plays out. I do figure that it means I don't believe in the Maker, but the game makes it a little hard to tell if that is an "accurate" portrayal or not at this juncture.

I am trying to join organizations that either seem neutral in concept or fit the billing of my guy who respects authority, but doesn't necessarily respect *these* authorities. Do the organizations work against one another, so that you are not intended to join them all?

[BlackEmperor]

By organizations, do you mean the Mages Collective, Blackstone Irregulars, etc? Because you're not actually joining them, you're just running errands for them. If they are working with/against one another, that's not readily made apparent in the game. Keep in mind that these organizations also have some quests with more than one possible solution, so you can choose to do finish ones that you might object to in a different way. You can do board quests like these for whoever. There aren't any real restrictions on it, and there are rarely party reactions to which ones you do for whom--either positive or negative.

There's no hard and fast way to determine whether a mage might believe in the Maker. Wynne is a complete counterpoint to Morrigan in this regard, so anywhere on either end of the spectrum could fit. My first character was a mage, and I was pretty agnostic about the Maker at the outset. But Lelianna lead me down a different path.

Keep in mind that you may believe in the Maker but still resent the Chantry's rigid oversight of mages. The two are not one in the same--as much as the Chantry would like you to think they are.

[Squidmaster]

Yes, those are the types of organizations I meant.  The reason I ask is that I just happen to feel like this character is ok with helping out non-sanctioned mages.  If I had played a Templar or a different mage personality, maybe I wouldn't, and it would seem wrong to try to help them at all.  I didn't know if there was possibly a counterpoint organization where if you didn't help the renegade mages, you *could* help the priests, or whatever.  You get the idea.

Right. I am basically trying to play as an elf first and mage second. I figure I can have an understanding for the oppressed, and value friendships over rules if they come into conflict. That might mean I can't hang out with Morrigan for long I suppose. I don't want to just pander to what she wants to hear... at least not till I play a rogue.

How do the two styles of stat-built mages play differently? Do you have to rely very heavily on magic potions if you go straight into magic?

Modifié par Squidmaster, 13 octobre 2011 - 12:38 .

[TBastian]

Willpower is nice for mages who mostly cast support/disable spells, it's not like they need each and every spellpower point and healing/disabling/support spells don't scale well with spellpower (the fact that they don't doesn't mean that neglecting your magic stat is wise though). This works for well for parties who carry plenty of DPS.
While there are plenty of mana/stamina regen equipment (game bug, stamina/mana are the same stat in DA:O) you might want to equip your mage with +defense or +evasion items instead. It depends on your party composition - if you're bringing a tanker or another support character for example then you won't need a lot of defense, unless you're the main DPS.

Modifié par TBastian, 13 octobre 2011 - 04:37 .

[termokanden]

Squidmaster wrote...

How do the two styles of stat-built mages play differently? Do you have to rely very heavily on magic potions if you go straight into magic?

Nope. The thing is, you gain mana as you level up and willpower only gives a fixed amount of mana per point. Your spells don't become more expensive. So you will need less and less willpower as you level up, whereas magic is always equally useful. You can always use more damage, right?

I carry around lots of lesser potions because they are so easy to make and are almost free. But I actually don't normally use them. If you DO use a potion, keep in mind that magic actually increases the amount of mana you gain from potions. So if you are in a long fight, the max magic mage and the high willpower mage will both run out of mana, but while the max magic mage will run out of mana faster AT FIRST, he/she will gain more mana per potion throughout the fight.

Modifié par termokanden, 13 octobre 2011 - 06:55 .

[BlackEmperor]

The other obvious point to make is that with more magic you're doing more damage per spell. More willpower allows you to cast more spells, but then you have to cast more spells anyway to do the equivalent damage that you would do if you had a higher magic score.

I usually craft a dozen potent lyrium potions once I get the recipe for it. With a high magic score, I almost never need more than 1 per fight, and I never go through all of them. I do usually put some points in Willpower, but not more than 5-10 points, tops. Just for giggles.

In Awakening there's also a skill line to increase mana/stamina, which, once maxed, provides another 100 bonus mana for mages. But even then you really don't need it (unless you're doing something ridiculous like having an Arcane Warrior who runs elemental chaos constantly).

[TBastian]

Actually the way spell damage/healing/DC works is they are taken from your spellpower times some %. For example, the Heal spell heals (100 + your spellpower) x .4. So if you had 10 more points in magic your Heal would mend an extra 4 more points of damage. Now consider that 10 willpower is equivalent to 50 mana, and the Heal only costs 20 mana. In the end, if your mage is only there to throw disables like Mass Paralysis or Cone of Cold while throwing Heals (like most Wynne builds)  then you really don't need very high Magic.
Magic is particularly useful only to nuker mages, some hybrids (like the druid you're making) and Shapeshifters, since by spamming damaging spells they get better returns for Magic (the extra 4+ points of damage per spell is going to stack - like after casting 5 damage spells they'll have done an extra 20 more points of damage, and if they keeps casting that number will increase further).  Shapeshifters rely on having very high spellpower to boost their forms' special abilities, so they also need a very high magic score. While one can argue that we can make a similar case for healing, the thing is there are no poultices that increase the damage enemy monsters take from damaging spells. We only have healing poultices, and they outnumber Lyrium potions by far.
Note that spells like Mass Paralysis are not particularly spellpower dependent, and spells like Haste and some of Glyphs ignore spellpower altogether.

Modifié par TBastian, 13 octobre 2011 - 10:46 .

[BlackEmperor]

It's true that some spells aren't affected by your spellpower--for all spells that aren't affected by spellpower, or are only moderately affected by spellpower, Willpower is of course a better bet than Magic. But Heal, Mass Paralysis, Haste, and the Glyphs... none of these do damage, and that's what I'm getting at. And it's hard to look at this from a purely hypothetical point of view. I have no doubt that it's indeed economical to cast two heals as opposed to one marginally stronger heal and have the Willpower to do so. On the other hand, Heal has a cooldown, and if 4 extra points of healing keeps you alive long enough to kill the monster but the less powerful heal doesn't, who cares? You're dead.

Not that it would realistically come down to that close of a margin, but my point is that *in general* it's better to do more with each spell.

[TBastian]

My point is, realistically, your party determines whether you need willpower or not. There is nothing hypothetical about this, I know many people who use mages (Wynne, in particular) as disablers/healbots. AFAIK active damage-focused mages are, in fact, a rarity. Just because a mage can cast Blizzard and Cone of Cold does not make him a nuker, and you're just going to shatter those monsters anyway. This is why I believe only mages who actually do plan on DPSing should focus on increasing their magic stat (this is the point of my previous post).

The game is beatable even without Heal, in large part because of poultices. Then there is good character building (raising defense instead of armor, etc) and combos like Taunt and Force Field. I believe Heal is one of the strongest spells out there, but a necessity? Maybe, for some party types. From my experience the Taunt + Force Field combo guarantees a no deaths run more than Heal, but my parties are of the type that have AoE-support character like Champions, Bards and summoners like Rangers so everyone contributes to everyone else's survivability, and we have lots of fodder. So my parties don't particularly need Heal, but it's powerful enough that we always have it anyway.

Modifié par TBastian, 14 octobre 2011 - 04:58 .

[tyrannosaur56]

just to let you know, you are playing a alienage elve rather than a dalish one. in almost all conversation, it points you towards alienage rather than dalish. this is more stark as you do the nature of the beast quest.
i normally do the 2magic:1 willpower ratio. my favourite spec is usually bloodmage and arcane warrior.
if you are more of a crowd control and healbot sort of mage, that ratio might be reversed as you need more will to go long fight. my wynne always run out of mana very fast...
mana regen equipment might not be so early acquired, so unless you are using pot often, higher will will be a good choice. i run arcane warrior with about 30 will and it do just fine.
death syphon might be your best friend if your willpower is low and you kill fast enough to regain some mana each time you kill 1 enemy.

[BlackEmperor]

TBastian wrote...

The game is beatable even without Heal, in large part because of poultices. Then there is good character building (raising defense instead of armor, etc) and combos like Taunt and Force Field. I believe Heal is one of the strongest spells out there, but a necessity? Maybe, for some party types. From my experience the Taunt + Force Field combo guarantees a no deaths run more than Heal, but my parties are of the type that have AoE-support character like Champions, Bards and summoners like Rangers so everyone contributes to everyone else's survivability, and we have lots of fodder. So my parties don't particularly need Heal, but it's powerful enough that we always have it anyway.

True enough. I'm not a fan of the Taunt/Force Field combo simply because it makes things too easy. And you're right of course, you don't need Heal. With a well-built party, you don't even need a mage period. I think we're of the same mind, actually--magic is most important for a dps mage. Others can get by with less.

[Squidmaster]

Huh, why would they let you do the tattooing and stuff if you're automatically an alienage elf?

I love the info you guys are providing me about the reasons for the stat allocation being what it is. I love having that full detail.

My party currently consists of Alistair, Leliana, and Morrigan. I like the combo for the moment at least, with 3 ranged and one shield tank. Is that a good combo? My one current beef is that it can take a while to kill stuff. My druid build is more about control than damage, and Morrigan is all over with skills so she is not yet focused. Leliana can probably hold her own ultimately but I have had her taking more critical party talents for opening chests and the like at this stage.

So far these, Sten and Wynn (currently in my party in the mage tower out of necessity) are my only choices. When I open up more options, what would you recommend in terms of role allocation? Can a non shield warrior tank ok if built properly? Is it better to have just one mage but 2 warriors or rogues, etc?

Modifié par Squidmaster, 16 octobre 2011 - 12:04 .

[BlackEmperor]

Squidmaster wrote...

Huh, why would they let you do the tattooing and stuff if you're automatically an alienage elf?

Anyone can have tattoos. Facial tattoos are an important part of Dalish culture, but it doesn't mean you can't have a tattoo on your face if you want one.

So far these, Sten and Wynn (currently in my party in the mage tower out of necessity) are my only choices. When I open up more options, what would you recommend in terms of role allocation? Can a non shield warrior tank ok if built properly? Is it better to have just one mage but 2 warriors or rogues, etc?

Yes, a non-shield warrior can tank. I wouldn't recommend it at the lower levels. Two-handers, like cunning rogues, take some time to develop before they really come into their own. Having a good control mage and/or healer will make the tank's job easier.

Is it "better"? I don't know how to objectively answer that question. This game is flexible enough that you can do most anything. You can do a party of nothing but warriors. Or mostly rogues. Or mostly mages. Or any combination thereof. If you're sitting back and blasting people with aoe damage spells, then adding more melee characters to your party is probably not in your best interest. The combination of Alistair, Leliana, and Morrigan can work for anyone--warrior, rogue, or mage. If you end up recruiting a character that you find more interesting, switch somebody out.

[tyrannosaur56]

alister is best for defender role in tactics, leliana is best for scrapper role. morrigan will depend on how you develope her. either as a damager/delibitator or healer. she is more suited for damager or delibitator role tho.
as for the warden, since you are a shapeshifter, you can add as a off tank in shifted form(bear) and also be a backup healer is you took the spirit healer spec. 1 thing about shapeshifter is you might need to divert some stats into strength to make some form more efficient. having high willpower also means your swarm form is more effective. the con is you will not be efficient in damaging spells, so your spells will be more to support spells and healing spells.
another option is you forgo willpower for higher magic and strength, thus render swarn form to more vulnerable state. but you can cast more damaging spells and equip mana regen equipment. the tactic is spam your spell, shift to bear form and wait for mana to regen as you off tank and shift back to human form for heal or more spell spamming.
notable equipment will be the juggernaut armour, ring of ages, lifegiver, chasind great maul(3 slot for hale rune), andruil blessing and spellward.
these equipment will help you in shifted form.
wynne is best for a healer role if you have not taken spirit healer specs or morrigan is not task to healer role. a healer is always a good thing.
2 mage is just a insurance if your main healer fallen, the other can add as backup. tho not necessary a must. you can add in another rogue or warrior if you want.

[Squidmaster]

I don't really plan to go Shapeshifter with my main character after reading about it, especially since Morrigan already is one. One thing that surprised me was the cast time for going into the forms. If it wasn't for that I could see building a character to use both spells and the forms.

Here's a new one - how do you learn who wants what gifts?  I know there are guides, but it would be nice to be able to find out naturally.  So far, I haven't had any indicators in conversations, however.

Modifié par Squidmaster, 16 octobre 2011 - 10:56 .