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[whykikyouwhy]

Gender could just be something applied to a divine being without it actually being something that defines, or is an aspect of, that entity. Elgar'nan may have been attributed a "male" persona, but may not in fact be male as we understand it. Godly types are so tricky that way...just as bodies are so limiting.

[mousestalker]

High Dragon are all female. The drakes are the boy dragons. Since the Old Gods are all draconic, it seems logical that they are all either female or transgendered.

[maxernst]

mousestalker wrote...

High Dragon are all female. The drakes are the boy dragons. Since the Old Gods are all draconic, it seems logical that they are all either female or transgendered.

For what it's worth, Brother Genitivi refers to the Old Gods as male in the codex on the First Blight

"They found what they sought: Dumat, first among the Old Gods, once known
as the Dragon of Silence before the Maker imprisoned him and all his
brethren beneath the earth for the first sin: usurping the Maker's place
in mankind's heart.
"

[whykikyouwhy]

I think the inclination to refer to the Old Gods as male may be a perspective thing either based on male roles in Thedan society, or the use of male pronouns for the Maker. So, in the average (non-elf) Thedan's mind, god = maker = father = male. Or Brother Genitivi is just biased.

The divine beings of the DA-verse could shift genders based on what form they utilize, for all we know. They may be male in one incarnation, female when in high dragon mode, etc. Or they don't have any gender at all, but humans have a pesky need to categorize to make something familiar.

[FaeQueenCory]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I think the inclination to refer to the Old Gods as male may be a perspective thing either based on male roles in Thedan society, or the use of male pronouns for the Maker. So, in the average (non-elf) Thedan's mind, god = maker = father = male. Or Brother Genitivi is just biased.

The divine beings of the DA-verse could shift genders based on what form they utilize, for all we know. They may be male in one incarnation, female when in high dragon mode, etc. Or they don't have any gender at all, but humans have a pesky need to categorize to make something familiar.

It's most likely that bolded part. Many real-world gods are called "he" because it's simpler for humans that way. Especially in the heteronormative, male-oriented society that gripped this world. The best case of this if in YHWH, It should be refered to as an "it" because limiting It to one gender belittles Its monotheistic divinity. (if it's a "he", it's not a "she" -and vice versa- it limits a being who is supposed to be above such definitions and is supposed to be beyond human limits... making the common maleYHWH image an idol, for it is not representative of the whole, so it is not the full divine)

[whykikyouwhy]

@FaeQueenCory - Well said (and most eloquently at that)! I think it all hearkens to the mortal need to make the divine tangible in some way. Which is probably why the Greek/Roman pantheon was made up of beings that were particularly human in their moods, whims, motivations, lusts, etc. The god that reflects the human might be easier to accept by that human -the being still inspires awe and wonder, but has become something that the human brain can comprehend, on a small level.

Though, that being said, I anticipate some personal disappointment should Flemeth (possible god and being of mystery) appear in the next game in a male body/form. Selfish and base of me, I know.

[Gervaise]

Small random thought with regard to the gender thing. The legends always speak of Flemeth and her daughters, so was she able to influence the sex of her children (assuming they were her own) or did she also have sons, in which case what happened to them? I gather Morrigan's child is male, so clearly she was not able to influence the sex - was it male because the old god was male or simply it was just the case of chance? Clearly your target doesn't have to be the same sex to body hop - Corypheus can jump to either - so has Flemeth always been female in appearance or have their been occasions when she became male? Obviously she would need to be female to give birth to children but if the child merely needed to be his/her offspring for a successful take over, then who knows how many different guises he/she has adopted over the years.

[maxernst]

FaeQueenCory wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I think the inclination to refer to the Old Gods as male may be a perspective thing either based on male roles in Thedan society, or the use of male pronouns for the Maker. So, in the average (non-elf) Thedan's mind, god = maker = father = male. Or Brother Genitivi is just biased.

The divine beings of the DA-verse could shift genders based on what form they utilize, for all we know. They may be male in one incarnation, female when in high dragon mode, etc. Or they don't have any gender at all, but humans have a pesky need to categorize to make something familiar.

It's most likely that bolded part. Many real-world gods are called "he" because it's simpler for humans that way. Especially in the heteronormative, male-oriented society that gripped this world. The best case of this if in YHWH, It should be refered to as an "it" because limiting It to one gender belittles Its monotheistic divinity. (if it's a "he", it's not a "she" -and vice versa- it limits a being who is supposed to be above such definitions and is supposed to be beyond human limits... making the common maleYHWH image an idol, for it is not representative of the whole, so it is not the full divine)

Well, it's true that "he" is the gender used in English for non-specific gender.  However, Thedas is not that male-dominated, particularly in the religious sphere.  The Maker is most likely viewed as male in part because he took a bride (Andraste) not a husband, rather than because of gender roles.  As far as the old gods in polytheistic pantheons  the gender of Gods is rarely non-specific.  I have a really hard time viewing Aprodite and Ares, Thor and Freya, Ra and Isis, etc. as genderless or androgynous.  The Old Gods are a very different kettle of fish from a being like YHWH.  They have bodies and live in the world, and may very well have genitalia. 

Modifié par maxernst, 16 novembre 2011 - 10:22 .

[maxernst]

Gervaise wrote...

Small random thought with regard to the gender thing. The legends always speak of Flemeth and her daughters, so was she able to influence the sex of her children (assuming they were her own) or did she also have sons, in which case what happened to them? I gather Morrigan's child is male, so clearly she was not able to influence the sex - was it male because the old god was male or simply it was just the case of chance? Clearly your target doesn't have to be the same sex to body hop - Corypheus can jump to either - so has Flemeth always been female in appearance or have their been occasions when she became male? Obviously she would need to be female to give birth to children but if the child merely needed to be his/her offspring for a successful take over, then who knows how many different guises he/she has adopted over the years.

The whole Flemeth and her daughters thing was what made me assume that Morrigan's child would be female when I was writing my fanfic.  In the case of Flemeth, as a shapechanger, I would guess that she could choose a male form if she wanted to.  I'm not actually convinced Flemeth jumps bodies, however.  In Witch Hunt, Morrigan says she was wrong in thinking of Flemeth as an abomination, so she may have misunderstood Flemeth's plans entirely.

[Todd23]

Sorry I don't have time to read your posts, so, sorry if someone already said this. Flemeth assumed her identity as Flemeth to explain her knowledge of things long past, not dieing, great power, and dragon form. She's immortal, and from separate testaments from Morrigan ageing but not an abomination. Flemeth taught Morrigan how to do the DR. According to a question my Orlesian warden asked Morrigan in WH, Flemeth has more to do with the blights then you would believe. The only thing she admits to being able to be defeated by is a blight (which is made up of an army and a tainted Old God). And we only see her defeated by the warden (someone who can beat a tainted old god). Finally, she's somehow involved in the big mage conflict (mages who mostly don't believe the chantry freeing themslves and gaining power by dark means). You do the math.

[freche]

After playing through Legacy, I'm starting to think she might be and old magister.
Siding with Larius in the end of Legacy it seems (for me) most likely that the magister you fought managed to possess Larius.

Flemeth knows how to possess people, she also knows other magic that has either not been known to most humans (ever) or lost since Ancient Tevinter.
Morrigan, says she is not truly human, but still not an abomination. (Larius says in Legacy that the Magister is more then human more then darkspawn).

If she is connected to the darkspawn that could explain why she don't want to fight the blights since it would destroy her if the old god try to possess the body she already possess.

[whykikyouwhy]

Without going into selfish reasons for not wanting Flemeth to be a magister, it just doesn't synch up for me. She seems too detached from human concerns & matters. She doesn't seem interested in the acquisition of power, which was a quality we *could* attribute to the original invading (as in rotten twinkie city invasion) magisters based on the context of Corypheus's dialogue upon awakening. Her main goal, that we have only some clues regarding, seems to be preservation of her own existence.

So too, she has some precognitive powers of a sort - she sees the paths ahead and has guided people accordingly (Maric, the Warden, Hawke, etc). It's not entirely inplausible for a magister to have such power, but it does seem somewhat extraordinary.

And finally, her dialogue with Merrill denotes, imo, a certain respect toward the elves. If the magisters destroyed Arlathan, it would seem there would be some hostility there, yet Flemeth remarks that "the People bend their knee too quickly" (poor paraphrasing) - this to me is something from an outside party/observor, from someone outside of that conflict.

That's the vibe I get at least. She strikes me as too "other" to be a magister...at least, to fit the mold of what we know about/of magisters.

[freche]

Well we know nothing about her desire for acquisition of power, she seems to be one of the most powerful being currently alive on Theadas, so that might dampen the desire for even more power.
Also Morrigan (I think she is honest in WH, she has nothing obvious to gain by lying there since she will disappear anyway) says we should be beware of Flemeth which hints on that Flemeth has something planned, this something might result in her getting more power.

The destruction of Arlathan was (according to the wiki) almost 600 years before the invasion of the Golden City so there is a chance (if she would be a magister) that she is not born yet.
Also over the course of 1300 years one might change their view about a thing or two
Her respect might be developed from their survival and struggle against oppression for so long.

This is ofc only speculations since I don't have any real facts (feels like I have read too little DA lore).

Modifié par freche, 09 décembre 2011 - 03:11 .

[whykikyouwhy]

I need to go back and check some youtube videos and such, but other than seeing her transform into a highdragon (and back again), do we ever see her cast as a mage would? IIRC, she indirectly refers to herself as an apostate/mage when first encountering Hawke, yet I can't remember any time when she has actually done any standard casting. It could be that her magic is far older than we know.

As far as power goes, I meant more in the context of what drove the magisters into the City. Unless she has already attained the power of the gods, she doesn't seem to be outwardly pursuing that - at least she has not commented on that like Corypheus (of course, he had just woken up and was cranky).

I think she's setting the stage for whatever may fall in line with Sandal's prophecy.

[jlb524]

I'm pretty sure we've only seen Flemeth shapeshift and she just kind of wills herself into her dragon form without any spellcasting movements.

[Rawgrim]

Maybe Flemmeth is one of the mages that tried to usurp the Creator?

[Maria Caliban]

mousestalker wrote...

Do you have a theory of what her story is, or would you rather never know?

I have a theory: She a woman who joined with a demon and keeps herself alive by possessing her daughters.

You know, what DA:O told us.

[Todd23]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I need to go back and check some youtube videos and such, but other than seeing her transform into a highdragon (and back again), do we ever see her cast as a mage would? IIRC, she indirectly refers to herself as an apostate/mage when first encountering Hawke, yet I can't remember any time when she has actually done any standard casting. It could be that her magic is far older than we know.

As far as power goes, I meant more in the context of what drove the magisters into the City. Unless she has already attained the power of the gods, she doesn't seem to be outwardly pursuing that - at least she has not commented on that like Corypheus (of course, he had just woken up and was cranky).

I think she's setting the stage for whatever may fall in line with Sandal's prophecy.

Corection, she doesn't turn into a high dragon it's something clearly different.  So yes, she's an old god.  But Sandal's prophecy was about The Maker returning and removing the veil, and allowing all people to have magic.

[whykikyouwhy]

Todd23 wrote...
But Sandal's prophecy was about The Maker returning and removing the veil, and allowing all people to have magic.

I don't know that Sandal's prophecy is specifically about the Maker. His words are vague:

"One day the magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part, and the skies will open wide....When he rises, everyone will see."

While he does refer to a "he," that could be anyone or anything. It seems likely that it could be the Maker but perhaps only because we have no other almighty, all-powerful, magical "he" that is so prevalent in Thedan life and lore.

But Sandal could just as soon be talking about something less benevolent (if we want to call the Maker benevolent, for the sake of this theory), and that it's arrival will shake things up enough to shift things back to how they were - which is another hazy matter. A world where magic flowed freely? A world of the Maker's First Children? A city that is golden again? A realm where cows and chickens roam without fear?

Could be anything.

[TEWR]

doesn't that prophecy only happen in imports that had the DR performed? I remember someone saying that on here, so it has to refer to the OGB.

[TEWR]

mousestalker wrote...

Do you have a theory of what her story is, or would you rather never know?

I have a couple. A tad convoluted, but it would explain some things.

I too subscribe to the theory that she is Fen'harel (or some other Dalish God. She might even be Mythal!). It would explain her connection to the Dalish people, especially when she says "One of the People. Do you know who I am, beyond that title?".

The only people who ever call the Dalish "The People" are the Dalish themselves, so if she were to be connected to the Dalish Pantheon it would make sense.

But I also subscribe to the theory that she is the Dumat -- or Razikale -- Old God Baby, who is in turn Andraste the bride of the Maker.

She seems privy to the way -- or maybe ways? -- to make an OGB. How could she know that? The answer that makes the most sense -- but I won't say is the only one -- is that she is an OGB herself. 

Or she's the Maker.

And anytime I say OGB, for some reason my mind jumps to the Family Guy song "Prom Night Dumpster Baby". Don't know why. It's horrible -- in the sense that it just makes you go "Aww man...." -- but it's so awesome too.

[whykikyouwhy]

You forgot the theory that she may be the Goddess of Fromage. (Which would fit in line with your Andraste theory - holy cheese wheels and all)

[RainbowPenguin]

I believe Flemeth to be a neutral power that will never fade away. She is immortal by the means of taking over the bodies of her daughters. I wonder if she ever had male children and what happened to them. Did she take them over as well or did she cast them off?
I also am wondering about Morrigan's baby, is it a boy or a girl? We don't know this yet, but on the off chance it's a boy... do you think he is one of the guys with the yellow eyes from the teaser trailer?

[Maria Caliban]

mousestalker wrote...

High Dragon are all female. The drakes are the boy dragons. Since the Old Gods are all draconic, it seems logical that they are all either female or transgendered.

The Old Gods are men.