245 réponses à ce sujet

[SnowHeart1]

People need to keep an open mind but the reality is the gaming industry has been changing. The cost of producing current and next-gen games is staggering -- AAA titles can easily cost more than a feature film. Against economic realities like that, I do understand why studios feel a need to reach a broad audience and, to a certain extent, cater to the lowest common denominator. They need money. For those who are complaining about this, you need to realize it's a business for these folks -- not a hobby. For most, it's a business they happen to enjoy and love, but they still have to make money at it. There's nothing wrong with that.

But here's the flipside of that... Under those economic pressures, and the need to expand to a wider audience, sometimes failure comes by trying to be too much to too many. Some people are poo-pooing the DA2 reference, but it's a very real issue. Bioware was purchased by EA, and then DA2 came out -- and, while some people liked it, it has not sold as well and received more negative reviews than DAO. That's the only title we have to judge Bioware on post-merger.

There are differences. DA2 had a rushed production cycle and a different development team. Those differences shouldn't be forgotten. But to completely dismiss the reference as irrelevant? No, sorry, it's not. Why? Because the changes that came to DA2 were designed to let it appeal to a broader market, probably much like the addition of multiplayer, and it could be indicative of a new business model that is driving budget allocations and design decisions in Bioware's post-merger games.

All that said, is Bioware "in decline"? Is "co-op" going to be a terrible experience? That depends on your perspective but, no matter what, nobody has enough information to judge that at this point. We won't until we have our hands on it. I wasn't thrilled to learn about multiplayer, truth be told I'm a little less excited about getting ME3 than I was two weeks ago, but I don't know enough to judge either way. The jury is out, on all counts.

[Dreadwing 67]

tez19 wrote...

Dreadwing 67 wrote...

tez19 wrote...

Mei Mei wrote...

In your post, Tez19, you seem to be taking the addition of MP in Me3 very personal. Like it's slight against you. How and why is it personal? Yes, you are a consumer. As am I and most others on this board but when a company makes a decision based on their interpretation of research and business models, it's in no way personal. It's business plain and simple. Many forum members appear to be having the same reaction that this is Bioware letting you down.

The reality is, it's your perceptions being shifted. That you as a gamer, are like the rest of us, we have no control over what the developer or company does. We simply can give feedback but know that those decisions will be based on their business plan. My recommendation is look deeper into the issues and opinions you are expressing as it seems it's about something other than the addition of MP in ME3.

Because Bioware used to be a developer that made games they believed in and loved. They did not make games based on market research and what would bring them the most money, I am against the inclusion of multiplayer in games that are suited to singleplayer experience. I play COD and enjoy its multiplayer, it is a game that suits multiplayer well, but games like Assassins creed and Mass Effect and Dead Space that are story dirven games I am totally against multiplayer as it is not needed. No matter how addictive or good the Multiplayer aspect is, they are taking resources away from the single player campaign FACT. Whether it be time or money it is a fact.

If you have any data to back up your FACT, or if you have ever worked in a gaming studio to know this, Please share.

If you have neither first hand knowledge or data to back this up, I see no reason it's FACT.

They could include MP and not detract a bit from SP.

So multiplayer is free to make? I guess the people working on it do it for fun too and do not get paid?

Are they hiring a whole other set of people JUST to work on MP. or are they using people they are already paying to work on MP.

And no to answer your next question, these don't have to be people working only on SP. They could be done with they're tasks for the SP and can now work on MP.  There could be even more employees not with a task right now, but I do not have the knowledge and neither do you

As long as they are already paying and not hiring, they are not going lose as much money as you would like for it to be convienant for you're argument

Modifié par Dreadwing 67, 11 octobre 2011 - 03:03 .

[Sister Helen]

Meh.

[Chewgumma]

tez19 wrote...

I believe with the whole Dragon Age 2 'streamlining' we saw and the kincect and multiplayer inclusion in Mass Effect3 that it is a safe assumption to make.

How do you know that Dragon Age 2's streamlining wasn't something that bioware genuinely wanted to do since Origins? I think DAII could have been a worthy follow up if it wasn't for EA's strict deadlines forcing Bioware to cut corners everywhere.

And loads of developers are getting excited over Kinect integration, not just Bioware. And seeing as it doesn't have a paticularly large user base I can hardly see why Kinect integration is a for profit decision. True, it isn't needed in ME3. But Bioware probably wanted to experiment with the technology at some point and decided ME3 was as good a time as any.

Fact is I don't believe their mantra has changed, I think you just don't like recent decisions and want the way they make their decisions to have changed.

[shepskisaac]

They ****ed up on DA2 and streamlined RPG elements in ME2. However, they've already proved they're expanding RPG elements in ME3 again and I'm rather positive DA2 was a HARD lesson for them. So frankly, I'm not worried.

[Teredan]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Are you kidding? The multiplayer has character customization, different races, level progression, weapons modding, and ties into the story. How is that not an RPG? All it's missing is the dialogue. Stop whining over this, you do realize this isn't Bioware's first go at multiplayer right?

-Polite

minus the races all those things have become staples in FPS. Now you don't really want to argue that Team Fortress/COD are RPGs?

[happy_daiz]

Sister Helen wrote...

Meh.

Well said. 

[Complistic]

IsaacShep wrote...

They ****ed up on DA2 and streamlined RPG elements in ME2. However, they've already proved they're expanding RPG elements in ME3 again and I'm rather positive DA2 was a HARD lesson for them. So frankly, I'm not worried.

They even delayed ME3 a few months after DA2 came out. When it comes to ME3 I think they've learned their lesson.

[shepskisaac]

Teredan wrote...

minus the races all those things have become staples in FPS. Now you don't really want to argue that Team Fortress/COD are RPGs?

So, if other genres adopt some RPG elements, do these elements automatically stop being 'proper' for RPGs?

[whywhywhywhy]

I agree with op.

[tez19]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

People need to keep an open mind but the reality is the gaming industry has been changing. The cost of producing current and next-gen games is staggering -- AAA titles can easily cost more than a feature film. Against economic realities like that, I do understand why studios feel a need to reach a broad audience and, to a certain extent, cater to the lowest common denominator. They need money. For those who are complaining about this, you need to realize it's a business for these folks -- not a hobby. For most, it's a business they happen to enjoy and love, but they still have to make money at it. There's nothing wrong with that.

But here's the flipside of that... Under those economic pressures, and the need to expand to a wider audience, sometimes failure comes by trying to be too much to too many. Some people are poo-pooing the DA2 reference, but it's a very real issue. Bioware was purchased by EA, and then DA2 came out -- and, while some people liked it, it has not sold as well and received more negative reviews than DAO. That's the only title we have to judge Bioware on post-merger.

There are differences. DA2 had a rushed production cycle and a different development team. Those differences shouldn't be forgotten. But to completely dismiss the reference as irrelevant? No, sorry, it's not. Why? Because the changes that came to DA2 were designed to let it appeal to a broader market, probably much like the addition of multiplayer, and it could be indicative of a new business model that is driving budget allocations and design decisions in Bioware's post-merger games.

All that said, is Bioware "in decline"? Is "co-op" going to be a terrible experience? That depends on your perspective but, no matter what, nobody has enough information to judge that at this point. We won't until we have our hands on it. I wasn't thrilled to learn about multiplayer, truth be told I'm a little less excited about getting ME3 than I was two weeks ago, but I don't know enough to judge either way. The jury is out, on all counts.

That is why my thread title is a question not a statement. I do believe Bioware is going the wrong way for my liking and for me that is all i care about as does everybody else. You have articulated my point better than i have i believe and like i said with the DA2 debacle and now the inclusion of these 2 features which i dislike (MP and Kinect) i believe Bioware is in decline for my tastes. I have not stated anything apart from my opinions in the OP and I am sure there are people out there who will now buy mass effect 3 BECAUSE it has MP or kinect. But will its hardcore fanbase which has been them for a long time? Time will tell.

[Teredan]

IsaacShep wrote...

Teredan wrote...

minus the races all those things have become staples in FPS. Now you don't really want to argue that Team Fortress/COD are RPGs?

So, if other genres adopt some RPG elements, do these elements automatically stop being 'proper' for RPGs?

Nope, If you have thought a little about it you would have figured out that the message which is features alone don't make an RPG the package does. Only because the MP will have all those features it won't necessarily be a RPG experience.

Modifié par Teredan, 11 octobre 2011 - 03:09 .

[shepskisaac]

I don't get Kinect complains. It's a feature that doesn't influence whether the RPG aspects will be deep or not, it's just there to get some more casual players. CD Projekt promoting Triss' ****** was also a way to get casual players to buy the game.

[Siansonea]

Hey look, another "old school" gamer is mad about multiplayer. Same sh—er, stuff, different day.

[tez19]

Siansonea II wrote...

Hey look, another "old school" gamer is mad about multiplayer. Same sh—er, stuff, different day.

I am 21, hardly old school.

[happy_daiz]

IsaacShep wrote...

I don't get Kinect complains. It's a feature that doesn't influence whether the RPG aspects will be deep or not, it's just there to get some more casual players. CD Projekt promoting Triss' ****** was also a way to get casual players to buy the game.

This Kinect thing is just voice, right? Not the whole "get up and look stupid" business?

[shepskisaac]

happy_daiz wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

I don't get Kinect complains. It's a feature that doesn't influence whether the RPG aspects will be deep or not, it's just there to get some more casual players. CD Projekt promoting Triss' ****** was also a way to get casual players to buy the game.

This Kinect thing is just voice, right? Not the whole "get up and look stupid" business?

Yes, voice commands only.

[Blastback]

Savber100 wrote...

Lets see the facts over the past 2 1/2 yrs.

One mediocre game. (Dragon Age 2)

One supposedly bad game that has not even been released. (Mass Effect 3)

vs

Dragon Age: Origins
Mass Effect 2

I think I'm still confident of Bioware's ability despite their move to a broader audience.

Also why do people keep saying that the addition of MP equal bad singleplayer? Have none of you guys played Uncharted 2 or Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood? Did Dead Space 2 really sucked in SP?

Honestly, we're getting more value for our money...

And why do people keep assuming that no MP equals better SP? EA would NEVER had given Bioware the extra cash if they weren't making MP so that kinda makes the point that SP will be worse because of MP kinda moot.

Haha, Bethesda? You gotta be kidding!

CDPR is the current king right now. But who knows? Maybe after 11 or so games and a decade later, they would change too.

You left out a few of their other games.  Like Baldur's Gate 2 and KotOR.

I'm looking foward to ME3.  I'm more uncertain of the Dragon Age franchise, since I wanted it to be a continuation of the idea of a "spiritual successor" to Baldur's Gate, and they seem to want to move a diffrent direction, but I think Mass Effect is going to do fine.

[DaringMoosejaw]

tez19 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Hey look, another "old school" gamer is mad about multiplayer. Same sh—er, stuff, different day.

I am 21, hardly old school.

You're right, because all the guys complaining about casuals ruining the game industry are in their mid-thirties?

[Teredan]

Siansonea II wrote...

Hey look, another "old school" gamer is mad about multiplayer. Same sh—er, stuff, different day.

Hey look, another worthless commentator that doesn't know the definition of sceptic.

Tell you what, we have absolutely every right to be sceptic because you know, even if MP is great do I really wnat it in my game trilogy that has been for 2 parts a Singleplayer experience?

I mean HDTV are great so are refrigerators do I want both of same combined? I don't know since I'm a sceptic I'll think probably no.

[tez19]

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

tez19 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Hey look, another "old school" gamer is mad about multiplayer. Same sh—er, stuff, different day.

I am 21, hardly old school.

You're right, because all the guys complaining about casuals ruining the game industry are in their mid-thirties?

I have no idea and also have no interest. But i would be surprised if a 21yr old was considered old school in anything?

[MarauderESP]

tez19 wrote...

Dreadwing 67 wrote...

tez19 wrote...

Mei Mei wrote...

In your post, Tez19, you seem to be taking the addition of MP in Me3 very personal. Like it's slight against you. How and why is it personal? Yes, you are a consumer. As am I and most others on this board but when a company makes a decision based on their interpretation of research and business models, it's in no way personal. It's business plain and simple. Many forum members appear to be having the same reaction that this is Bioware letting you down.

The reality is, it's your perceptions being shifted. That you as a gamer, are like the rest of us, we have no control over what the developer or company does. We simply can give feedback but know that those decisions will be based on their business plan. My recommendation is look deeper into the issues and opinions you are expressing as it seems it's about something other than the addition of MP in ME3.

Because Bioware used to be a developer that made games they believed in and loved. They did not make games based on market research and what would bring them the most money, I am against the inclusion of multiplayer in games that are suited to singleplayer experience. I play COD and enjoy its multiplayer, it is a game that suits multiplayer well, but games like Assassins creed and Mass Effect and Dead Space that are story dirven games I am totally against multiplayer as it is not needed. No matter how addictive or good the Multiplayer aspect is, they are taking resources away from the single player campaign FACT. Whether it be time or money it is a fact.

If you have any data to back up your FACT, or if you have ever worked in a gaming studio to know this, Please share.

If you have neither first hand knowledge or data to back this up, I see no reason it's FACT.

They could include MP and not detract a bit from SP.

So multiplayer is free to make? I guess the people working on it do it for fun too and do not get paid?

hahahaha i was waiting to see if someone will say i , but don't worry they would use another excuse to tell u that ur wrong