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[Mr.House]

tmp7704 wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

I always took that as meaning that only men are suitable to serve on the front lines, while women can still serve in other roles that aren't related to warfare. So spies and assassins should be open to everyone, regardless of gender.

Assassination specifically feels like very warfare-related position to me. Given it focuses primarily on killing people.

Spying, i could see. Spies can (and perhaps should) operate with very limited first-hand exposition to combat. But not assassination, especially not when it's as explicit as making it one's rank.

A skilled assassin can kill there mark without any battle.

[tmp7704]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But he didn't know Leliana's past -- as Mr. House said -- so it's not a contradiction.

The fact Leliana is a bard becomes known eventually during DAO. As such, Sten can be well aware Leliana has been an assassin in the past.

[naledgeborn]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

question: Do male Ben-Hassrath and female Ben-Hassrath have different methods of "fighting", as it were? Like would a male resort to outright attacking someone for their goal or intimidating them, while a female would use persuasion, cunning, stealth, and rogue-like arts for their goal?

I'm actually surprised that the Ben-Hassrath -- who from Sten's own words at the time sounded pretty violent by nature (though I know that's only how they sounded, not how they actually act) -- have a name that translates to something.... serene and beautiful even.

I asked Mary Kirby something yesterday about Ben-Hassrath. Apparently mages can be Ben Hassrath too. Albeit very few of them and under a lot of scrutiny.

I found this very interesting.

[TEWR]

tmp7704 wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

She's also an elf and not a Kossith, and as such is better at blending in and moving freely through the lands of the bas.

Yes, but i'm fairly sure the kossith have also male elves amongst the qunari. So logically, you'd expect these males to be utilized as assassins etc, while Felicia Day's character would be assigned a task more suitable for a female.

except she's proven that she's best suited for the role of Ben-Hassrath, and Salit trained her personally. The Ben-Hassrath are viewed by the Qunari as more.... specialists I guess in their field rather than outright soldiers. And soldiers are a male-only field.

Though I'm not sure if that's right, as Mr. Gaider has the secrets and knowledge of the Qunari.

[Mr.House]

tmp7704 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But he didn't know Leliana's past -- as Mr. House said -- so it's not a contradiction.

The fact Leliana is a bard becomes known eventually during DAO. As such, Sten can be well aware Leliana has been an assassin in the past.

What if he does his banter before he finds out she was a bard?

[Master Shiori]

tmp7704 wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

I always took that as meaning that only men are suitable to serve on the front lines, while women can still serve in other roles that aren't related to warfare. So spies and assassins should be open to everyone, regardless of gender.

Assassination specifically feels like very warfare-related position to me. Given it focuses primarily on killing people.

Spying, i could see. Spies can (and perhaps should) operate with very limited first-hand exposition to combat. But not assassination, especially not when it's as explicit as making it one's rank.

Assassination isn't necessarily tied to warfare. Sometimes it can be a tool used to remove a problem and prevent an open conflict from happening. 

[TEWR]

naledgeborn wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

question: Do male Ben-Hassrath and female Ben-Hassrath have different methods of "fighting", as it were? Like would a male resort to outright attacking someone for their goal or intimidating them, while a female would use persuasion, cunning, stealth, and rogue-like arts for their goal?

I'm actually surprised that the Ben-Hassrath -- who from Sten's own words at the time sounded pretty violent by nature (though I know that's only how they sounded, not how they actually act) -- have a name that translates to something.... serene and beautiful even.

I asked Mary Kirby something yesterday about Ben-Hassrath. Apparently mages can be Ben Hassrath too. Albeit very few of them and under a lot of scrutiny.

I found this very interesting.

That explains how Taarbas says that a Mage Hawke could be Ben-Hassrath, and I guess how he has no qualms about having conversed with a mage.

[Sylvianus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

"Women are priests.  Or merchants.  Or artisans.  Or farmers.  None of those have any place fighting."

Seems like a contradiction to me.  Particularly considering Sten wasn't talking to a soldier, but to Leliana the spy.

He also says that to Wynne. and says something similar to Morrigan. I also think he says it or something similar to the Female Warden

Yes he said that to my female warden.

cool. But he didn't know Leliana's past -- as Mr. House said -- so it's not a contradiction.

For Wynne and Morrigan, he addresses their mageness and their womanhood in different conversations, and for the Warden he probably assumed they were trying to be a soldier and not a Ben-Hassrath-esque figure.

So, yea... no contradictions.

I only confirmed your thinking. For the contradictions, I don't know, I wait to see the future explanations first. But I think it is also premature to say anything like " that's not a contradiction because he didn't know Leliana's past or she's an elf "...  Maybe to wait simply the explanations. The truth is we don't know at all, from what we have and only the writers can explain the subtleties of Qun that is not easy to understand.

[BloodyTalon]

Thought Sten was more getting at in the context of war women duo not fight.

[Mr.House]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

She's also an elf and not a Kossith, and as such is better at blending in and moving freely through the lands of the bas.

Yes, but i'm fairly sure the kossith have also male elves amongst the qunari. So logically, you'd expect these males to be utilized as assassins etc, while Felicia Day's character would be assigned a task more suitable for a female.

except she's proven that she's best suited for the role of Ben-Hassrath, and Salit trained her personally. The Ben-Hassrath are viewed by the Qunari as more.... specialists I guess in their field rather than outright soldiers. And soldiers are a male-only field.

Though I'm not sure if that's right, as Mr. Gaider has the secrets and knowledge of the Qunari.

We also don't know if Salit had any problems getting Tallis into the Ban-Hassrath. However the big thing for me is who oversees the Ben-Hassrath, the fact that it's the Arquin is a big factor for me.

[tmp7704]

Mr.House wrote...

]This would be true, if the Ben-Hassrath was watched by the Arisahok, but it's not. Ariqun oversees it.

I fail to see why it makes a difference -- tamassrans take care of administration roles in qunari society, so they oversee very much everyone, both males and females. They still recognize the men are better suited for certain roles, and perform selection accordingly.

[TEWR]

tmp7704 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But he didn't know Leliana's past -- as Mr. House said -- so it's not a contradiction.

The fact Leliana is a bard becomes known eventually during DAO. As such, Sten can be well aware Leliana has been an assassin in the past.

Sten's dialogue with Leliana on that that issue tends to trigger before Leliana's Past begins, assuming people put Sten and Leliana in their party at Lothering.

You can certainly play it so that he says it after the quest, but I don't think that's how it was intended to go. Leliana only says she's a lay sister of the Chantry, not a bard.

Question: Who were the priests in the Qun? The Tamassrans, right?

[Mr.House]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Question: Who were the priests in the Qun? The Tamassrans, right?

Yes.

[TEWR]

Sylvianus wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

"Women are priests.  Or merchants.  Or artisans.  Or farmers.  None of those have any place fighting."

Seems like a contradiction to me.  Particularly considering Sten wasn't talking to a soldier, but to Leliana the spy.

He also says that to Wynne. and says something similar to Morrigan. I also think he says it or something similar to the Female Warden

Yes he said that to my female warden.

cool. But he didn't know Leliana's past -- as Mr. House said -- so it's not a contradiction.

For Wynne and Morrigan, he addresses their mageness and their womanhood in different conversations, and for the Warden he probably assumed they were trying to be a soldier and not a Ben-Hassrath-esque figure.

So, yea... no contradictions.

I only confirmed your thinking. For the contradictions, I don't know, I wait to see the future explanations first. But I think it is also premature to say anything like " that's not a contradiction because he didn't know Leliana's past or she's an elf "...  Maybe to wait simply the explanations. The truth is we don't know at all, from what we have and only the writers can explain the subtleties of Qun that is not easy to understand.

Oh yea, I didn't mean to sound like you actually said those things. I was responding to Wulfram there and I forgot to put some spaces between the lines . Sorry about that .

[David Gaider]

Melca36 wrote...
I watched Redemption and perhaps I got the wrong impression but it made me assume Tallis is not her name but a rank...the way Sten is.  

Was I right? Or Wrong?

Not a rank per se, but certainly a description of her position within the Ben-Hassreth-- who, by the way, fall under the Ariqun. Thus a soldier within the Qunari would consider them as priests.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
When I first heard that
Tallis was Ben-Hassrath in the DLC, I figured that the Qunari did in
fact define "fight" and "do battle" differently and very oddly. Like
they apply fighting only to their soldiers, but when Ben-Hassrath fight
they don't see it as wartime fighting, so the Ben-Hassrath doesn't
become a male in the eyes of the Qunari if she's a female.

That's correct. It says more about the strict definitions that the Qunari apply to everything, I'm sure, and that applies to splitting hairs between warriors (the "real' fighters) and others who might need to fight even if that's not their purpose.

And, to be clear, Sten would have seen the Grey Wardens as an army-- thus anyone who was a Grey Warden was clearly a warrior, meant to do battle against the darkspawn.

Modifié par David Gaider, 12 octobre 2011 - 09:56 .

[nikkylee]

Mr.House wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But he didn't know Leliana's past -- as Mr. House said -- so it's not a contradiction.

The fact Leliana is a bard becomes known eventually during DAO. As such, Sten can be well aware Leliana has been an assassin in the past.

What if he does his banter before he finds out she was a bard?

Okay, but thinking that way... what if he says it after?

Thank you, Mr. Gaider, for clarifying. I don't think it was a giant leap to jump to the conclusion that I did, though. I don't have the codex memorized, so what I remember is Sten saying "You cannot be a woman and a Grey Warden. Women are priests, merchants, etc..." and the Arishok saying, "I won't fight a woman." I would assume (based on friends who mentioned the same conversations and who spend less time on the forums/codex than I do) that most people don't just figure out right away that Oh, warrior is one thing. Assassin is TOTALLY different. 

Doesn't change my dislike of Tallis, but I'll retract my criticism on that aspect. (Unless she's the only female Qunari we ever see fighting.)

Modifié par nikkylee, 12 octobre 2011 - 09:54 .

[tmp7704]

Mr.House wrote...

A skilled assassin can kill there mark without any battle.

Sometimes. At other times when their mark is also skilled, occasionally exceeding the skill of the assassin, there will be a battle. And so it makes little sense to assign to such task a person you don't believe is suited for battling, when you can just as well assign someone you believe can handle battling so far better no female can match that.

Maybe this whole thing would become more clear if we were given some insight into what's so special about being warriors specifically that's apparently considered so special and making it an activity completely set apart from fighting. Since without it does look pretty contrived.

[naledgeborn]

If the Tallis rank literally means assassin then I'd think that women are much better suited for the "role" than men. And assassins can keep peace as well as end wars so they aren't necessarily "soldiers".

Modifié par naledgeborn, 12 octobre 2011 - 09:57 .

[TEWR]

tmp7704 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

A skilled assassin can kill there mark without any battle.

Sometimes. At other times when their mark is also skilled, occasionally exceeding the skill of the assassin, there will be a battle. And so it makes little sense to assign to such task a person you don't believe is suited for battling, when you can just as well assign someone you believe can handle battling so far better no female can match that.

Maybe this whole thing would become more clear if we were given some insight into what's so special about being warriors specifically that's apparently considered so special and making it an activity completely set apart from fighting. Since without it does look pretty contrived.

Assassinations require more than just fighting. It requires stealth, cunning, wit, flirting, etc. Men cannot always assassinate a mark. Do you think a male could assassinate a mark that was only interested in females and was too much for him to handle? No. But a female could easily work her way into the male's quarters and kill him there.

[tmp7704]

naledgeborn wrote...

If the Tallis rank literally means assassin then I'd think that women are much better suited for the "role" than men. And assassins can keep peace as well as end wars so they aren't necessarily "soldiers".

In this case shouldn't Sten be doing a "why are you an assassin" speech at Zevran...

[TEWR]

while we're on the subject of female Qunari and Tal-Vashoth, when the hell are we going to see a female Kossith?

[naledgeborn]

tmp7704 wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

If the Tallis rank literally means assassin then I'd think that women are much better suited for the "role" than men. And assassins can keep peace as well as end wars so they aren't necessarily "soldiers".

In this case shouldn't Sten be doing a "why are you an assassin" speech at Zevran...

Because Zevran failed and wasn't acting as an assassin anymore. His "role" changed to bodyguard.

[Wulfram]

Mr.House wrote...
Does Sten know her whole past? No. It's not a contradiction.

Leliana's past, which he may know at that point, is merely a bonus. 

He lists the roles of women under the Qun, and says that none of them have any place fighting.  Really, if we're not allowed to draw the conclusion that Qunari women don't fight from that I don't know what we're supposed to think?

Does Leliana dislike shoes?  Does Anders love the Circle?  Is Isabela a virgin?

Modifié par Wulfram, 12 octobre 2011 - 10:02 .

[David Gaider]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
question: Do male Ben-Hassrath and female Ben-Hassrath have different methods of "fighting", as it were? Like would a male resort to outright attacking someone for their goal or intimidating them, while a female would use persuasion, cunning, stealth, and rogue-like arts for their goal?

No-- like with the other roles in Qunari society, you're defined by it rather than defined by your gender. You're gender can limit which role you can assume

The oddity, honestly, is that male Qunari can join the Ben-Hassrath, considering that they fall under the priesthood... not that a female Qunari can fight when called on to do so.

I'm actually surprised that the Ben-Hassrath -- who from Sten's own words at the time sounded pretty violent by nature (though I know that's only how they sounded, not how they actually act) -- have a name that translates to something.... serene and beautiful even.

The Qunari don't consider the Ben-Hassrath violent by nature. They consider them a necessary part of maintaining unity... which they consider to be a strength. If anything, they're leaders. How close Tallis is to the Ben-Hassrath hierarchy, however, is something you'll have to figure out for yourselves.

[tmp7704]

naledgeborn wrote...

Because Zevran failed and wasn't acting as an assassin anymore. His "role" changed to bodyguard.

He has been an assassin for long years just the same, and you also get to meet plenty of still active, male assassins during DAO. And Sten doesn't as much as raise an eyebrow, although he's got plenty comments about other things arranged differently than his own brethren do.