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[Mr.House]

Wulfram wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
Does Sten know her whole past? No. It's not a contradiction.

Leliana's past, which he may know at that point, is merely a bonus. 

He lists the roles of women under the Qun, and says that none of them have any place fighting.  Really, if we're not allowed to draw the conclusion that Qunari women don't fight from that I don't know what we're supposed to think?

Does Leliana dislike shoes?  Does Anders love the Circle?  Is Isabela a virgin?

Qunari women can not be warriors. Tallis is not a warrior in there eyes. Gaider has just said this. Are you just covering your eyes and poking at other things so you can be right?

[David Gaider]

nikkylee wrote...
Thank you, Mr. Gaider, for clarifying. I don't think it was a giant leap to jump to the conclusion that I did, though. I don't have the codex memorized, so what I remember is Sten saying "You cannot be a woman and a Grey Warden. Women are priests, merchants, etc..." and the Arishok saying, "I won't fight a woman." I would assume (based on friends who mentioned the same conversations and who spend less time on the forums/codex than I do) that most people don't just figure out right away that Oh, warrior is one thing. Assassin is TOTALLY different.

I don't begrudge you the interpretation-- I would just hope that, when we reveal new information on things we haven't discussed much previously-- you take it as new information and not a contradiction because it doesn't match your interpretation... or assume that it was done just so Felicia Day could be an ass-kicking Qunari.

[tmp7704]

David Gaider wrote...

The Qunari don't consider the Ben-Hassrath violent by nature.

But isn't then rather odd the job of assassin is included in this particular subset of the qunari society, rather than assigning it to violence oriented group? What reasoning do they use for that?

[Melca36]

David Gaider wrote...

Melca36 wrote...
I watched Redemption and perhaps I got the wrong impression but it made me assume Tallis is not her name but a rank...the way Sten is.  

Was I right? Or Wrong?

Not a rank per se, but certainly a description of her position within the Ben-Hassreth-- who, by the way, fall under the Ariqun. Thus a soldier within the Qunari would consider them as priests.

Very interesting. :happy:  Thanks for the explanation.

This also explains why I really enjoyed Tallis alot too. I hope we get to see more of that aspect of the Qunari.  People need to get out of the Qunari are Muslims stereotype because it goes much deeper and broader than that.

[naledgeborn]

tmp7704 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

The Qunari don't consider the Ben-Hassrath violent by nature.

But isn't then rather odd the job of assassin is included in this particular subset of the qunari society, rather than assigning it to violence oriented group? What reasoning do they use for that?

I can't speak for Mr. Gaider but like I said before assassination is more about preventing war. Peace keeping is something that I'd attribute to priests/esses.

[Wulfram]

Mr.House wrote...

Qunari women can not be warriors. Tallis is not a warrior in there eyes. Gaider has just said this. Are you just covering your eyes and poking at other things so you can be right?

Sten didn't say they couldn't be warriors, he said they didn't fight.  From what Mr Gaider said, I guess what Sten got wrong was saying that priests have no place fighting.

But there was a real contradiction, with no "jumping to a conclusion" required.

[Anyroad2]

"Mark of the Assasin Feedback" turned into a debate about Qunari roles and Sten. >_>

Shouldn't this have its own thread?
Its certainly interesting enough to, I think. : )

Modifié par Anyroad2, 12 octobre 2011 - 10:16 .

[thats1evildude]

David Gaider wrote...
Not a rank per se, but certainly a description of her position within the Ben-Hassreth-- who, by the way, fall under the Ariqun. Thus a soldier within the Qunari would consider them as priests.

Incidentally, the first assassins were members of a religious order.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 12 octobre 2011 - 10:21 .

[DahliaLynn]

I wonder if they took the name "Ben Hassrath" from another language. For example, when written in Hebrew, it would mean "Son of the Server" Where Ben means son, 'Ha' means 'of', and ssrath, when interpreted as a root word, means "serve". Just a thought and probably off by miles

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 12 octobre 2011 - 10:21 .

[TEWR]

David Gaider wrote...

That's correct. It says more about the strict definitions that the Qunari apply to everything, I'm sure, and that applies to splitting hairs between warriors (the "real' fighters) and others who might need to fight even if that's not their purpose.

And, to be clear, Sten would have seen the Grey Wardens as an army-- thus anyone who was a Grey Warden was clearly a warrior, meant to do battle against the darkspawn.

So would it be correct to say that while Tallis is extremely skilled for being an assassin and whatnot, the primary duty of the Ben-Hassrath doesn't really deal with combat?

....I'm so confuzled. Then again, that's pretty much how everyone in Thedas feels when dealing with the Qunari, so it's only natural.

Maybe I'm thinking too much.

David Gaider wrote...

The Qunari don't consider the Ben-Hassrath violent by nature. They consider them a necessary part of maintaining unity... which they consider to be a strength. If anything, they're leaders. How close Tallis is to the Ben-Hassrath hierarchy, however, is something you'll have to figure out for yourselves.

I guess she's either really high-up (or was, since Redemption makes me think she was demoted after MotA) or will be high up at the end of Redemption.

...or she'll become Tal-Vashoth.

[tmp7704]

naledgeborn wrote...

I can't speak for Mr. Gaider but like I said before assassination is more about preventing war.

That's too "1984" for me, sorry.

Whatever the goals, assassination in its very nature embodies the concept of violence. And really then, if we start using this reasoning, then why isn't the purpose of a soldier also "keeping peace" (through murdering the opposition, but that's considered small detail) and as such a task suitable for priesthood?

[David Gaider]

tmp7704 wrote...
But isn't then rather odd the job of assassin is included in this particular subset of the qunari society, rather than assigning it to violence oriented group? What reasoning do they use for that?

To the Qunari, the purpose is everything. What we would call an assassin is someone who's sent out to kill people... the killing is the purpose. A Ben-Hassrath might be an assassin, but the killing would only be incidental to their purpose. The Ben-Hassrath exist to defend the faith, nothing more.

At any rate, this isn't the thread to get into a discussion about the Qunari. The quest and story forum is best for that. I just wanted to clear up the idea that this was a contradiction.

Modifié par David Gaider, 12 octobre 2011 - 10:22 .

[nikkylee]

David Gaider wrote...
... or assume that it was done just so Felicia Day could be an ass-kicking Qunari.

I did go in a little defensive with the Tallis thing, I'll admit. Grasping at Mary Sue straws, maybe. Like I mentioned in my original review, I got burned by Bella Swan.  

I don't know Felicia Day beyond her Buffy persona, so hearing the DLC was based off of a character she created I assumed she created this aspect as well, just to be extra special. Self-inserts tend to do that. 

Anyway, overall I did like the DLC at least as much as I liked DA2 (12 Hawkes later, I pretty much like it a lot), and I really appreciate that everyone at Bioware generally tries to answer what they are able to. 

[TEWR]

David Gaider wrote...

nikkylee wrote...
Thank you, Mr. Gaider, for clarifying. I don't think it was a giant leap to jump to the conclusion that I did, though. I don't have the codex memorized, so what I remember is Sten saying "You cannot be a woman and a Grey Warden. Women are priests, merchants, etc..." and the Arishok saying, "I won't fight a woman." I would assume (based on friends who mentioned the same conversations and who spend less time on the forums/codex than I do) that most people don't just figure out right away that Oh, warrior is one thing. Assassin is TOTALLY different.

I don't begrudge you the interpretation-- I would just hope that, when we reveal new information on things we haven't discussed much previously-- you take it as new information and not a contradiction because it doesn't match your interpretation... or assume that it was done just so Felicia Day could be an ass-kicking Qunari.

She is pretty badass. Oh and pretty.



Random side note for the posters here: For some reason, when Felicia Day was promoting Redemption's first episode, she acted a lot like Merrill and that made me like her even more.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 octobre 2011 - 10:26 .

[TEWR]

David Gaider wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...
But isn't then rather odd the job of assassin is included in this particular subset of the qunari society, rather than assigning it to violence oriented group? What reasoning do they use for that?

To the Qunari, the purpose is everything. What we would call an assassin is someone who's sent out to kill people... the killing is the purpose. A Ben-Hassrath might be an assassin, but the killing would only be incidental to their purpose. The Ben-Hassrath exist to defend the faith, nothing more.

At any rate, this isn't the thread to get into a discussion about the Qunari. The quest and story forum is best for that. I just wanted to clear up the idea that this was a contradiction.

One dev comment set loose a ferocious maelstrom of posts by other people that moved the topic away from the original issue

[David Gaider]

nikkylee wrote...
I don't know Felicia Day beyond her Buffy persona, so hearing the DLC was based off of a character she created I assumed she created this aspect as well, just to be extra special. Self-inserts tend to do that.

Granted. When the idea was first floated, we sent Felicia several basic concepts of characters we thought could work, and which would add something to the world-- a female, elven Ben-Hassrath was one of them. She liked that and developed Tallis from that point.

Anyway, overall I did like the DLC at least as much as I liked DA2 (12 Hawkes later, I pretty much like it a lot), and I really appreciate that everyone at Bioware generally tries to answer what they are able to.

I don't see every post, but I'll answer when I can. Glad you liked the DLC.

[tmp7704]

David Gaider wrote...

To the Qunari, the purpose is everything. What we would call an assassin is someone who's sent out to kill people... the killing is the purpose. A Ben-Hassrath might be an assassin, but the killing would only be incidental to their purpose. The Ben-Hassrath exist to defend the faith, nothing more.

I'm confused then. If the purpose of the Ben-Hassrath is to defend the faith, why would they create/include in their body a job explicitly named "assassin", i.e. a position which, as you say yourself, has the purpose of killing people?

I mean, it's difficult to argue that perhaps to the qunari it's considered something different when the job is actually given a name that's supposed to be equivalent of the "assassin"... if that makes sense. It's hard to explain ;/

Modifié par tmp7704, 12 octobre 2011 - 10:29 .

[Bestyj669]

First thoughts ...

After 6 hours of intensive downloading I've got to ask this ... Would you consider using carrier pigeon service instead of PSN? At least for the euro zone. Or something similar utilizing small rodents to deliver either DVDs or pendrives with content to your customers?

Thanks.

[TEWR]

tmp7704 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

To the Qunari, the purpose is everything. What we would call an assassin is someone who's sent out to kill people... the killing is the purpose. A Ben-Hassrath might be an assassin, but the killing would only be incidental to their purpose. The Ben-Hassrath exist to defend the faith, nothing more.

I'm confused then. If the purpose of the Ben-Hassrath is to defend the faith, why would they create/include in their body a job explicitly named "assassin", i.e. a position which, as you say yourself, has the purpose of killing people?

I mean, it's difficult to argue that perhaps to the qunari it's considered something different when the job is actually given a name that's supposed to be equivalent of the "assassin"... if that makes sense. It's hard to explain ;/

The assassins would be used by the Ben-Hassrath against those "bas" or Tal-Vashoth who threaten the Qun lifestyle (Duke Fancybeard and who we know he was working for). Thus they are defending the faith. And I think it's the Ben-Hassrath's duty to hunt down the Tal-Vashoth.

[OnKeLDead]

David Gaider wrote...

I don't see every post, but I'll answer when I can. Glad you liked the DLC.

And I'm glad with the new direction you guys take with the new DLCs. I have to admit after playing DA II I thought I would never touch it again, but a few weeks ago I beat DA:O once more and transfered the new charakter to DA II and so I gave the new DLCs a try and let me say: Well done. It's still not as good as Origins (In my opinion) but I can see that you're doing it right and I had a lot of fun. So I'm looking forward for more Hawk to come and bridge the time with the 2 novels. Good variation I guess

[tmp7704]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The assassins would be used by the Ben-Hassrath against those "bas" or Tal-Vashoth who threaten the Qun lifestyle (Duke Fancybeard and who we know he was working for). Thus they are defending the faith.

But then we're just back to the question posed few posts earlier -- if that reasoning is used to justify inclusion of assassins in the ranks of "defenders of faith" then why isn't the same done for soldiers? After all, all military conquests the qunari do as well as the defense of their lands can be also in one way or another considered nothing more but "defending the faith".

[TEWR]

tmp7704 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The assassins would be used by the Ben-Hassrath against those "bas" or Tal-Vashoth who threaten the Qun lifestyle (Duke Fancybeard and who we know he was working for). Thus they are defending the faith.

But then we're just back to the question posed few posts earlier -- if that reasoning is used to justify inclusion of assassins in the ranks of "defenders of faith" then why isn't the same done for soldiers? After all, all military conquests the qunari do as well as the defense of their lands can be also in one way or another considered nothing more but "defending the faith".

The soldiers are warriors. They're part of the army. They're doing their duty in just fighting. It's not their duty to focus on the religious aspects of the Qun.

The Qunari rigidly define "fighting" and "doing battle" to mean many different things. So while a Ben-Hassrath assassin fights, a Ben-Hassrath assassin isn't fighting.

It's confusing, but confusion and Qunari go hand in hand.

I'm wondering though why the Arishok was sent to retrieve the Tome of Koslun if the Ben-Hassrath are the defenders of the faith and the Tome of Koslun is a religious artifact. I guess maybe the Orlesians wanted to meet with the Arishok, or because of the nature of the meeting the Qunari felt it best to send an army.

Or they did in fact send some Ben-Hassrath with the Arishok. I dunno.

[Wulfram]

tmp7704 wrote...

That's too "1984" for me, sorry.

Appropriate, if we're talking about Qunari.

[themonty72]

RagingCyclone wrote...

MotA was very well done and fun to play. The devs obviously put time into details that was lacking in the main game. Like Legacy this was a very much appreciated step in the right direction and a sign of what DA2 could have been with more development time. The moss in the bricks on the buildings, the lake scene, the chateau on the mountainside in the distance were all details that made this world come alive. The story was riveting and fun the play. The puzzles were challenging but not overbearing, the sneaking was definitely fun to play and involved thinking much like it's own puzzle. I really enjoyed playing this. Talis was a fun character with some banter that took me by surprise. Overall a very well done dlc. If the kind of attention that was put into both Legacy and MotA had been put into DA2 as a whole it might have been a great game instead of a good to mediocre game. Kudos to the dev team for stepping up and making these two dlc's and giving some of us hope for future installments.

I agree but Legacy was little boring to me but  overall it was a good DLC.

Modifié par themonty72, 12 octobre 2011 - 11:06 .

[naledgeborn]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The assassins would be used by the Ben-Hassrath against those "bas" or Tal-Vashoth who threaten the Qun lifestyle (Duke Fancybeard and who we know he was working for). Thus they are defending the faith.

But then we're just back to the question posed few posts earlier -- if that reasoning is used to justify inclusion of assassins in the ranks of "defenders of faith" then why isn't the same done for soldiers? After all, all military conquests the qunari do as well as the defense of their lands can be also in one way or another considered nothing more but "defending the faith".

The soldiers are warriors. They're part of the army. They're doing their duty in just fighting. It's not their duty to focus on the religious aspects of the Qun.

The Qunari rigidly define "fighting" and "doing battle" to mean many different things. So while a Ben-Hassrath assassin fights, a Ben-Hassrath assassin isn't fighting.

It's confusing, but confusion and Qunari go hand in hand.

I'm wondering though why the Arishok was sent to retrieve the Tome of Koslun if the Ben-Hassrath are the defenders of the faith and the Tome of Koslun is a religious artifact. I guess maybe the Orlesians wanted to meet with the Arishok, or because of the nature of the meeting the Qunari felt it best to send an army.

Or they did in fact send some Ben-Hassrath with the Arishok. I dunno.

The Sten said it best. Eyes and ears of the Qunari.