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#101
Siduri

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naledgeborn wrote...

A 3-5 hour DLC and you're complaining about clothes? This is definitley an Orlesian DLC.

thats1evildude wrote...

The vest/pantaloons combo looks pretty dashing on my M!Hawke.


Also. This.


Precisely. It's VERY, VERY obvious that the female player was disregarded here. Our clothes are ugly, our character is ugly -- those development resources went into making the Tallis NPC look hot.

Because, who cares about girl gamers? Let's put all our money into giving the guy gamers more eyecandy!!!

If this is how Bioware feels, then I'm going to spend my future gaming dollars accordingly.

Modifié par Siduri, 11 octobre 2011 - 11:41 .


#102
Merci357

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Siduri wrote...

I can't even get it off! I'm wearing this hideous purple-and-periwinkle coverall, and I'm STUCK with it. I can glance over at Tallis and her cute off-shoulder little ensemble, but apparently my Hawke LIKES looking like a circus clown at high-class functions. Great.

Seriously, was it too much to expect that Fem!Hawke might get a nice dress? You couldn't spend AT LEAST the same amount of time on her that you spent on the NPC's fashion?

This is such a "screw you" to female players. It honestly makes me angry.


Uhm, not that I'd disagree with you that the party outfit is quite dull. On the other hand I'm happy we are not forced into a dress, so thanks to John Epler for that.

#103
JamieCOTC

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JohnEpler wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

nikkylee wrote...

Not to go all fangirl, but I'm curious about the Fenris romance with this. Most of his dialog in act 3 refers to him having left and that's it, even if you've completed the final Questioning Beliefs and are "back together". If it was a year prior, does that mean you're still going to be in "exclusive but not actually a couple" limbo? I don't mind it, really. Just curious and fishing for goodies cause I'm stuck at work until tonight. *grump*


I only got one banter that could be classified as "romantic" for a post-game Fenris as LI, but it could also be interpreted as just caring during that three year hiatus.  It was enough to go D'AWW, but that might just be me.  With Fenris, he's so emotionally closed, even a seemingly minor comment of concern is nice.

On the topic of feedback:  I really enjoyed this DLC.  I loved the new areas, the story and banter was fun, and YAY PUZZLES.  The boss fight was the right balance when it came to needing strategy vs. frustration.  

My only two quibbles were:  the cameos at the party were pointless (and, as seen elsewhere, there's one that people are actively avoiding), and F!Hawke's party shirt could have been fitted to a female body better.  I really, really don't like it when it feels like playing a female character was an afterthought.  Yeah, it's just party clothes that we'll never use again, but I can predict that other femHawke players will notice and either wish that she got a dress, or wish that her shirt didn't look so ill-fitted.  

I didn't feel like the stealth portion was too slow (if it's not your style, you can always go back and fight your way through), and I'd really like to see a mechanic like this for rogues in DA3.


I'll take full responsibility for femHawke not having a skirt or a dress. The problem with that sort of clothing is that it requires a rather different set of animations to look A) good and B) not too Basic Instinct'ish. Given the animation budget we had for the DLC, I requested that we just give her the same sort of clothes as Male Hawke to sidestep that problem, as I felt the time would be better spent elsewhere. It's a fair point, though, and as with all things there were definite sacrifices made as a result of the decision.


At least she gets to rant about it to a guard.  :P

#104
SaintSinX

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I've been waiting for this dlc so long...  so long!!!
and I finished it in just 3 hours... i'm so sad...(don't misunderstand... i enjoyd the dlc very much! Its even better then "Lagacy").
will there more dlc??? or Dragon age 3?
if yes i cant wait to play it!!!

#105
Siduri

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thats1evildude wrote...

But if you need to vent your rage at someone, aim it at John Epler.

JohnEpler wrote...

I'll take full responsibility for femHawke not having a skirt or a dress. The problem with that sort of clothing is that it requires a rather different set of animations to look A) good and B) not too Basic Instinct'ish. Given the animation budget we had for the DLC, I requested that we just give her the same sort of clothes as Male Hawke to sidestep that problem, as I felt the time would be better spent elsewhere. It's a fair point, though, and as with all things there were definite sacrifices made as a result of the decision.


Awesome. I DO need to vent. Would you please provide a link to the original quote?

I'd like to let John Epler know exactly how this loyal fangirl feels about being shown how very little her gaming experience matters to the devs.

#106
Fiannawolf

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I for one am glad it wasnt a dress. I hate dresses. Not all female gamers like to wear skirts and such. I wish my femshep had the tux at Kasumi's party.

#107
hoorayforicecream

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 I'm a little hesitant to post this here, because it's a non-spoiler forum... but since others have been spoiling already, whatever. Let the chips fall where they may. Just giving a heads-up here, there be spoilers ahead.

The good:

I really liked how the new banter style involves Hawke. I love the fact that Hawke doesn't just chime in occasionally, but there is actual banter between Hawke and her/his teammates. It makes me feel like Hawke is more of a character (though I can see how some would be annoyed that the Hawke they've created in their heads wouldn't say those things). 

I liked the puzzles. I thought they were an interesting diversion, and I enjoyed the change of pace.

I really liked the Isabela and Aveline specific quests. It was terrific to see small character-building quests for them, and more about their pasts, as well as showcasing their wonderful personalities.

The combat was well-balanced - it was challenging and had some good tactical elements to it. I never felt overwhelmed, and while I did get my butt kicked on occasion, I never felt frustrated that it was entirely out of my control. I played on normal. I really liked the final battle; it involved new aspects of combat that felt tactical, and I liked the different things I could do to use the environment factors in the fight itself.

I greatly enjoyed how much went into the ambience of the world. Just overhearing the NPCs talking put a smile on my face (listening the du Launcets talking about ****s had me giggling), and I really liked the bits and pieces from the NPCs at the party.

I adored how there was additional effort put in to recognize an existing romance. I'm having a lot of fun going through on various playthroughs to try to see what is and isn't affected by the romance flag.

The bad:

The first (and largest) complaint I have is that the major choices felt like they didn't matter. I was presented with the option of sneaking or fighting, and that was cool. I'll talk about the sneaking later. However, the bigger choices (fight the Duke's forces or escape through the caves? Stay with Tallis or abandon her?) felt like they didn't matter. If I chose to try to fight the Duke's men, I was told "Never mind, go to the cave anyway." If I chose to abandon Tallis, I ended up doing practically the same thing as if I chose to help her. I will also echo Dave of Canada's complaint - why shouldn't Hawke be able to take that scroll from Tallis? Why would Hawke just let her go? It bothers me that it dovetails, because I didn't feel like I was really making a choice.

Tallis herself seemed to be the star of the show as well, and it didn't feel as organic. She got all of the recognition from the NPCs, and nobody else did but Hawke. It didn't make sense to me. I get that Hawke gets recognized (personal invitation, killed the wyvern, possibly Champion of Kirkwall, etc.), but Tallis is supposed to be Hawke's elf servant. What makes her more noteworthy than the other servants? 

The second major complaint were the cinematics and the sense of lack of agency while watching them. When Tallis introduces herself by stabbing five or six thugs, then hangs a lampshade on the fact that Hawke and crew aren't doing anything ("What are you waiting for?"), that really bothered me. It reminded me of fanfiction where a brand new character shows up and upstages the original cast. This happens again in the caves, when Tallis runs away, then returns with a cinematic where (again) Hawke and crew stand in awe and are unable to do anything while watching Tallis do awesome things.

I really didn't feel the tension when Tallis runs off during that fight either. She left, and then comes back and there's a cinematic that makes me think there should be a bigger deal than I felt there was. There was practically no tension; I didn't feel like my characters were in any danger anyway, so it was more a feeling of mild curiosity than anything else. I'd have to contrast this with the time when Isabela ran off in act 2 - the tension there was much stronger, despite me expecting her to return. I felt it was more palpable that she was gone, and then when she returned, I felt that tension noticeably deflate. 

When the Duke shoots Salit with the green stuff, I felt helpless. Hawke and crew were just standing there while it was all going on, and I don't understand why. 

Finally, I didn't like how I was forced to separate from my companions during the party and sneaking section. It felt handwaved; they certainly helped with the wyvern kill, and the nobles at the group clearly had their own servants and people in attendance. Why couldn't Hawke's teammates be there? 

The mixed:

I have mixed feelings about the stealth section. Firstly, I didn't like how Tallis was clearly far, far superior at it than Hawke, but didn't actually *do* anything. She dashed much faster than Hawke, appears in a puff of smoke at places Hawke has to sneak into, and could probably do it all without needing Hawke's help at all. It made me feel like I was being forced to do it. Secondly, stealth in general is pretty weird. The guard behavior totally broke my immersion. If Hawke KOs a guard, why would that guard simply get up and ignore the blackout that just happened? The guards didn't seem to care if they saw an unconscious guard. They didn't pay attention if I threw a rock. It would have made a lot more sense if they were automatons or something. Golems maybe? Beams of light I needed to avoid breaking? I don't know. I applaud the experimentation, but stealth is a very difficult sort of system to implement; I've tried creating one myself, and it was certainly no picnic. The stealth felt more like a puzzle than actually sneaking, and I'd rather it just go fully and embrace the puzzle-ish nature of it rather than try to be a stealth game.

The conclusion:

All in all, I liked the DLC. I really liked the character building moments, and the varied gameplay elements. I liked the pacing, and the opportunities to do many different things - fight, talk, explore, sneak, and solve puzzles were all interesting things to do. Overall, it's a very good DLC, and I am happy I paid for it. I just felt that there were some issues that could use massaging. I didn't feel that this DLC was as tightly built as Legacy. It clearly has a lot more content than Legacy and does a great deal of character development (much better than Legacy), but it also backslides some in areas that I felt Legacy handled much better (player agency, primarily).

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 11 octobre 2011 - 11:53 .


#108
thats1evildude

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Siduri wrote...

Awesome. I DO need to vent. Would you please provide a link to the original quote?

I'd like to let John Epler know exactly how this loyal fangirl feels about being shown how very little her gaming experience matters to the devs.


It's on the first page. I don't know how to link to a post.

But really, is it such a big deal? They're just clothes.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 12 octobre 2011 - 12:06 .


#109
highcastle

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Let me start by saying I definitely enjoyed MotA, though not as much as Legacy. Why? Well, in large part it was due to the reason I was somewhat dreading to begin with: Tallis. I didn't hate or even dislike her especially. I was largely ambivalent to her. She provided some really interesting lore, but at the same point...she's not my companion. And for a large chunk of the game, it was just Hawke and Tallis. I would have so preferred to see companions I already know and love at my side. It's one thing for her to take up one spot in the party. It's another to restrict us to just Tallis for almost half the campaign.

That being said, I loved the banters and the character interactions. Once more, we get to see the companions interact more with Hawke in those banters, and I adore that. Nic Boulton's voice acting was superb and the sarcastic options in particular were a hoot. I was in stitches several times over the course of the game. I'm also happy to see f!Hawke not in a dress. It's more practical for her to be in clothes she can move in when she's planning on breaking into a mansion. Just saying.

One thing I would have liked to see was the opportunity for Hawke to express why they do or don't support the Qunari. I'm happy you could make that particular opinion known, but Hawke almost seemed to imply it was for religious reasons at times. I know my Hawke wasn't affected by Andraste or the Chantry, but by the Qun's treatment of the saarebas. Being a mage, that's not something he could ever submit to. I think if you're going to bring in an issue like this, than you need to allow for the player to express their opinion. I feel like the Shepherding Wolves quest in Act 1 was there in some small part to help us make an opinion about the Qunari. So don't ignore those moments, make them count in content like this, where a reference seems appropriate.

Like I said, I really enjoyed this. I think sending the companions away during the party was a missed opportunity--I would have loved to see Anders chat up the nobles about mages' rights, or Aveline to make faces about Orlesian customs, for instance--but I still liked the story. In the future, though, I'd prefer to either expand the character arcs of companions we already love, or else to move the story into the future, post-Gallows.

#110
Shazzie

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Fiannawolf wrote...

I for one am glad it wasnt a dress. I hate dresses. Not all female gamers like to wear skirts and such. I wish my femshep had the tux at Kasumi's party.


Ditto this. Not a dress, please never a dress, especially when it would be one of the fugly dress/robe things that all women seem to wear in DA. But what FHawke wound up wearing was truly fugly. Chunky, blocky, and so very ill-fitting and completely unflattering. I couldn't wait to get done with that part so I wouldn't have to look at my character in that getup any longer.

#111
Siduri

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thats1evildude wrote...

It's on the first page. I don't know how to link to a post.

But really, is it such a big deal? They're just clothes.


It is a big deal to me, yes.

By contrast, I didn't care a whit about map re-use in DA2. "Really," I thought to myself as I read all the reviews, "is it such a big deal? They're just maps."

Moral of the story: different gamers care about different things. One isn't better than the other. It's just about what we use to get immersed in the story and game world. To *me*, I need to feel that my player character is foxy in order to remain invested in her. When there's an NPC who is obviously way more foxy, and upon whom the devs have slathered all their resources at the expense of my player character, then it tells me this is a game I'm not meant to be playing.

#112
Mr.House

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Siduri wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

It's on the first page. I don't know how to link to a post.

But really, is it such a big deal? They're just clothes.


It is a big deal to me, yes.

By contrast, I didn't care a whit about map re-use in DA2. "Really," I thought to myself as I read all the reviews, "is it such a big deal? They're just maps."


It's just clothes.

#113
Siduri

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Shazzie wrote...

Fiannawolf wrote...

I for one am glad it wasnt a dress. I hate dresses. Not all female gamers like to wear skirts and such. I wish my femshep had the tux at Kasumi's party.


Ditto this. Not a dress, please never a dress, especially when it would be one of the fugly dress/robe things that all women seem to wear in DA. But what FHawke wound up wearing was truly fugly. Chunky, blocky, and so very ill-fitting and completely unflattering. I couldn't wait to get done with that part so I wouldn't have to look at my character in that getup any longer.


EXACTLY. It didn't have to be a dress -- Tallis isn't wearing a dress, but her outfit is so, so much more flattering than Hawke's that I can't help but take it as a personal F-YOU.

#114
Mr.House

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Shazzie wrote...

Fiannawolf wrote...

I for one am glad it wasnt a dress. I hate dresses. Not all female gamers like to wear skirts and such. I wish my femshep had the tux at Kasumi's party.


Ditto this. Not a dress, please never a dress, especially when it would be one of the fugly dress/robe things that all women seem to wear in DA. But what FHawke wound up wearing was truly fugly. Chunky, blocky, and so very ill-fitting and completely unflattering. I couldn't wait to get done with that part so I wouldn't have to look at my character in that getup any longer.

uh huh

Image IPB
:P

#115
thats1evildude

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Mr.House wrote...

*snip*


*Bites lower lip*

DAT ASS

Modifié par thats1evildude, 12 octobre 2011 - 12:03 .


#116
Yakko77

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JamieCOTC wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

nikkylee wrote...

Not to go all fangirl, but I'm curious about the Fenris romance with this. Most of his dialog in act 3 refers to him having left and that's it, even if you've completed the final Questioning Beliefs and are "back together". If it was a year prior, does that mean you're still going to be in "exclusive but not actually a couple" limbo? I don't mind it, really. Just curious and fishing for goodies cause I'm stuck at work until tonight. *grump*


I only got one banter that could be classified as "romantic" for a post-game Fenris as LI, but it could also be interpreted as just caring during that three year hiatus.  It was enough to go D'AWW, but that might just be me.  With Fenris, he's so emotionally closed, even a seemingly minor comment of concern is nice.

On the topic of feedback:  I really enjoyed this DLC.  I loved the new areas, the story and banter was fun, and YAY PUZZLES.  The boss fight was the right balance when it came to needing strategy vs. frustration.  

My only two quibbles were:  the cameos at the party were pointless (and, as seen elsewhere, there's one that people are actively avoiding), and F!Hawke's party shirt could have been fitted to a female body better.  I really, really don't like it when it feels like playing a female character was an afterthought.  Yeah, it's just party clothes that we'll never use again, but I can predict that other femHawke players will notice and either wish that she got a dress, or wish that her shirt didn't look so ill-fitted.  

I didn't feel like the stealth portion was too slow (if it's not your style, you can always go back and fight your way through), and I'd really like to see a mechanic like this for rogues in DA3.


I'll take full responsibility for femHawke not having a skirt or a dress. The problem with that sort of clothing is that it requires a rather different set of animations to look A) good and B) not too Basic Instinct'ish. Given the animation budget we had for the DLC, I requested that we just give her the same sort of clothes as Male Hawke to sidestep that problem, as I felt the time would be better spent elsewhere. It's a fair point, though, and as with all things there were definite sacrifices made as a result of the decision.


At least she gets to rant about it to a guard.  :P


FASHION EMERGENCY!!!!

#117
Siduri

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[quote]Mr.House wrote...

[/quote]
uh huh

Image IPB
:P
[/quote]

Hey, thanks for the illustration! It's pretty obvious who the main character is in that shot -- clearly, the main character is the fox in the off-shoulder blouse. I guess that gal in the clown pants is there to provide comic relief.

#118
Raycer X

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thats1evildude wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

*snip*


*Bites lower lip*

DAT ASS


Wit dat assImage IPB!

#119
Siduri

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TeenZombie wrote...

I really, really don't like it when it feels like playing a female character was an afterthought.  Yeah, it's just party clothes that we'll never use again, but I can predict that other femHawke players will notice and either wish that she got a dress, or wish that her shirt didn't look so ill-fitted. 


Prediction? SUSTAINED.

This DLC makes it painfully (and I mean PAINFULLY) clear that nobody involved cared about those playing female characters. Yeah. I don't like feeling like an afterthought either.

It's awfully ironic that I was fully on-board for DA2, and it's *this* DLC that's making me consider bailing out on the franchise. So, thanks for that, John Epler! GOOD CALL.

Modifié par Siduri, 12 octobre 2011 - 12:10 .


#120
David Gaider

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Siduri wrote...
Prediction? SUSTAINED.

This DLC makes it painfully (and I mean PAINFULLY) clear that nobody involved cared about those playing female characters. Yeah. I don't like feeling like an afterthought either.

It's awfully ironic that I was fully on-board for DA2, and it's *this* DLC that's making consider bailing out on the franchise. So, thanks for that, John Epler! GOOD CALL.


You know, I can certainly get why you might have wanted a pretty dress. But to extrapolate from this that all female gamers would have wanted said pretty dress (which simply isn't true) and that the lack of that dress constitutes a lack of caring for female gamers is taking it a bit far.

Be angry about it for your own sake, if you wish, but insofar as how much we care about our female gaming audience I think we can stand by our track record.

And sorry you didn't get your dress. I would have put you in taffeta. B)

#121
Siduri

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David Gaider wrote...

You know, I can certainly get why you might have wanted a pretty dress. But to extrapolate from this that all female gamers would have wanted said pretty dress (which simply isn't true)


Oh, David, I can't stay mad at you. But you know you're misquoting me, right? I think I've said a couple times now that it didn't have to be a dress.

But yeah, I think most of us would have liked to have seen our female characters get at least the same kind of attention from the art department that the NPC got.

Is that really out of line? Really?

And sorry you didn't get your dress. I would have put you in taffeta. B)


*sniff*. I would've been so pretty in taffeta.

#122
IrishSpectre257

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 Has anyone mentioned the hilarious Mass Effect reference yet? :lol:

Anyways, great DLC. Lasted me more than twice as long as Legacy. 

#123
David Gaider

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Siduri wrote...
But yeah, I think most of us would have liked to have seen our female characters get at least the same kind of attention from the art department that the NPC got.

Is that really out of line? Really?


I imagine that, short of putting femHawke in a walk-in closet with a selection of outfits to choose from, there's probably nothing we could have put her in that wouldn't have been considered ugly to someone. And even then, probably.

And I thought the suit looked pretty good on a female PC, anyhow. The taffeta would've been better, of course, especially if we could add a rustle-rustle noise whenever she walked around.

#124
axl99

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*image removed by user for non-spoiler's sake*

Modifié par axl99, 12 octobre 2011 - 12:25 .


#125
David Gaider

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Just a reminder to keep spoilers out of this forum, please.