147 réponses à ce sujet

[Levowitz]

At the very least, people could agree that Highever/Howe isn't ended in a proper way, and the brother showing up at the end was a bit odd.



Highever should've been a party camp like Soldier's Peak.

[SeanMurphy2]

Taritu wrote...

One army you should be able to get is from all the bans and arls who used to swear loyalty to your father, who hate what Howe has done with Loghain's permission and won't tolerate it. In a semi-feudal society, you absolutely could expect to go to them and ask for their backing and expect to receive it. (This could be done by other origins without the same advantage, simply because in a feudal society the idea that Loghain could overthrow nobles at whim would be unacceptable to other nobles. If the second most powerful noble in all of Ferelden isn't safe, no one is.)

.

I think that would be interesting.

Loghain is the teyrn of Gwaren. So you may need the political support of the teryn of Highever to challenge Loghain in the landsmeet.

Arl Howe could be located in Highever instead of being a Denerim villain. Fergus Cousland could be hiding in the woods of Highever with his remaining forces. You can then help him regain his lands. It could echo the Stolen Throne with the rebels hiding in the woods.

[Reiella]

Actually you're wrong on alot of points there.

It is possible to kill Loghain and have Alistair and Anora marry.  Alistair can't be the one who kills Loghain, but you can.

Furhter, you are seriously downplaying the whole "he killed my father and tried to poison my uncle" aspect of it [Duncan really ended up falling into the father figure role for Alistair].

Cauthrien can be defeated in the breakout scene.  She also can be talked out of fighting you outside the Landsmeet.

[Poubo]

Duncan was a murderer... great father figure there...oh thats right, he managed to REDEEM himself... i wonder if Alistair knew what sort of man Duncan was when he was younger

[Reiella]

Poubo wrote...

Duncan was a murderer... great father figure there...oh thats right, he managed to REDEEM himself... i wonder if Alistair knew what sort of man Duncan was when he was younger

Possibly, possibly not, it really didn't matter in that light, much the same way that even knowing what kind of man Loghain was -now- Anora wasn't about to support executing him.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Poubo wrote...

Duncan was a murderer... great father figure there...oh thats right, he managed to REDEEM himself... i wonder if Alistair knew what sort of man Duncan was when he was younger

Yes, because as we all know, father figures all over the world are all just awesome.

[InstantCoffee]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

You make some good points. (I will try to read it all later)

Loghain, Cauthrien and the political situation is very peripheral in the mid game. Ideally you would interact with them regularly after Ostager. You see them briefly at Ostager and then have very distant indirect contact with them until the Landsmeet section.

I thought the resolution to the Landsmeet section was too neat. By winning a vote or a duel, you are suddenly allowed to immediately execute Loghain who is a hero to many and a top general. And you suddenly gain the support of everyone.

I totally agree, The Landsmeet section was quite poorly done. But yet, way more better than a big dragon boss fight at the end of the game *sigh*

[Obliterati]

I agree with most of the OP's points, aside from the previously mentioned mistakes regarding Alistair/Anora/Loghain's death and Ser Cauthrien.



Especially the Fergus situation.



His tacked-on, deus ex appearance at the end, coming from literally nowhere after you've been engaged in a year of nationwide win-or-die fighting, was by far and away the single worst moment of the entire game for me, story-wise. It just brought the whole final scene to a screeching WTF halt.



Look, I don't have anything against Fergus, but it would have been much better for him to have died when everybody else died, and shown the PC finding his remains and bringing him home to a proper burning-burial-cruise-whatever at the end of the game.



BioWare should at least make "The Epic Journey of Ser Fergus Cousland" DLC to play out his adventures while you were off saving the world. That would tie up some loose ends, and seems like it would offer some exciting story potential.

[SeanMurphy2]

Though I liked how there were dynamic outcomes for a lot of characters.



Zevran is not destined to betray you in every game. Loghain and Cauthrien won't die in every game. There may be a different King/Queen. Alistair may end up a drunken bum, a King or a dead hero.



So I don't mind a story with more possible outcomes even if there are slight implausibilities.

[Lianaar]

Interesting conversation. I do not think it needs such level of emptional investment. You know, you can just say you felt the noble line neglected.
I loved the noble line. It got me instantly motivated. I do presume I won't be quite pleased about the brother suddenly turning up after spending his time with some Korcari wild wench. Ahem...  Probably.

From the game balance point of few I would say that all backstories should be balanced in regards to each other. None of them should be favored or another one will complain. If you see it as such: there is this given time for an origine, then that is what fits in that time. Everything can be made better, because perfection is a sheer illusion. Everything could need more time. And there is no such state where everyone is happy. The game was released with quite a delay. It offers a lots of things. It might happen that some lines weren't properly finished. Some by mistake and some with deliberacy. Or so I reckon.

Loghain. You see him as a hero. But tell me, what is a hero? 
What qualifies great heros, especially those in war? 
That they are stubborn, reckless, they do not waver and fight for what they believe is right and serves the better for the people without delay, hesitation and detour. They sacrifice things for the goal, and they do motivate others to fight for them.
What defines arch evil? That they are stubborn, reckless, they don't waver and fight for what they believe. They sacrifice things for the goal and they motivate others (be it by trick, bribe, manipulation or belief) to fight for them.

Oopss... that might be a tad too close.
Loghain believed that he is a hero. He was. He saved the country from the Orlesian. Now I wonder what the Orlesian think about him, fighting off their legitimate rule which brought peace and weath to the country. Which likely would have stopped the Blight even sooner. And Loghain wanted the country he fought for to remain free. He decided that inviting 200 orlesian grey wardens to fight a common threat is worth allying with the Artisians and with the Trevinter Imperium. After all they are so much more Ferelden-like then Orlisians, right? Right. And killing the King instead making her daughter (who theoretically run the country) influence him was also for the freedom of Ferelden.

And still I don't hesitate to say he was a hero. And so was Duncen, so was Alistair and my character. So was Wynne and many others.

How about Howe? I feel we know too little about him. Or let me rephrase, I know too little about him. He was so sour, he seemed to be such opportunistic of a person. But then, he was at the side of Maric and my PC noble's father when they fought for the freedom of the country. Maybe he was a hero too then? What changed him? Do we know? 

In a way Grey Wardens aren't any better then Loghain (don't ever tell Alistair that). They both give up everything that they deem is a must (be it life of others) in order to get the goal. History only will remember one of them, whose goal is supported by most. The landsmeet proved to people that the Blight is more important of a goal then the freedom of the country. They might have been convinced that the freedom of Ferelden is not threatened by 200 Orlesian grey wardens.

On that note I am not sure that Loghain hated the grey wardens at first as much as he came to hate them at the end. The way he talked with my character about the grey wardens, saying that none should be allowed to discourage me from persuing a path, especially claiming I am a woman, as the first grey warden who returned to Ferelden was a woman and one of the most worthy too. He seemed to have a respect toward the wardens. Maybe he got to see them as an obstacle for Ferelden's freedom as time progressed and he realised, they are an obstacle to HIS plans. I wouldn't call him evil. However my chars had no trouble killing him. My noble will do so with pleasure.

[AtreiyaN7]

That was interesting, but two things: I talked Ser Cauthrien down, so she never died. She actually said go on in there and stop Loghain after I was done convincing her at the threshold of the Landsmeet. As for Alistair - as I pointed out in a different thread, sometimes the death of someone close to you can lead you to explode in anger and make completely irrational decisions, even when logic has slapped you upside the head, grabbed you by the collar and is demanding that you listen to it. Admittedly, one would hope that Alistair could put his personal animosity towards Loghain aside for the greater good, but I can see why he lost it, based on my personal experience with death & loss. I did my share of raging, took my anger out on others and didn't always behave nicely or logically (at least Alistair did a lot better keeping it together on the whole). For him, I think Duncan's death was still pretty raw at that point, regardless of the support he had from his romantic interest (or friend, depending), etc.

[Hamarabi2006]

Excuse my short comment. I didn't like the brevity of some story resolutions either, regardless, some of your complaints seem unwarranted from my point of view. Even so I do not have time to support or argue every point with you. However, I will say this: Being a hero does not excuse you from consequences or guarantee leniency, especially when the crimes are so severe. Those crimes Loghain committed demanded the death sentence since that is the way justice is handled in Ferelden and being lenient would send the wrong message. The wrong message is that once you are a hero, you can do what ever you want including treason, betrayal of the king, murder, assassination attempts of royalty, slavery in the Alienage, etc., and face no consequence or just get a slap on the hand.

Modifié par Hamarabi2006, 22 novembre 2009 - 09:56 .

[SageGaspar]

SLPr0 wrote...


This is crappy writing and in total while I'm sure going the direction I'd have gone, which is giving the player the ability to use their amassed armies to mount a campaign to retake Highever(and hey maybe your brother shows back up then? Makes a lot more sense to me) and use it as a base of operations from where you can recruit more men and then make a campaign into Amaranthine and visit vengence on Howe and his line PROPERLY.

Now...would that add 20 or so more hours to the game? Yes, probably...would that be a bad thing? No not at all, and it would make a lot more sense in regards to the story.

You can't use your amassed armies to get involved in disputes within Ferelden because they joined up for one reason only, to defeat the Blight. They signed treaties with the wardens long ago promising to aid against the darkspawn if a blight comes, largely because a successful darkspawn invasion is the end of the world for everyone. The Dalish don't care about Highever, the templars and magi don't care about Highever and don't take sides in politics like that, the dwarves sure as **** don't care about Highever, and I'm pretty sure the Arl wouldn't be down for it either on the cusp of a blight with Loghain still on the throne.

That would be an incredible amount of focus for just the Human Noble origin too. They could have just made everyone Human Nobles and then they would've been able to add the depth to that storyline you would've liked, but they chose to make the origins more diverse instead so we get less depth but a lot more variety. It was more a choice of creative decisions than a right/wrong thing, I personally really enjoyed the way they did it and Human Noble is the origin I have the least desire to play. I want a 20 hour campaign for my dwarf noble to use her new paragon status to retake the throne of Orzammar and make headway into the Deep Roads personally!

[Riona45]

Did anyone else mention that Ser Jory served Arl Eamon in Redcliffe, and that he was not from Highever? It makes sense that he wouldn't recognize the human noble PC as anyone he knew.

[koshiee]

I absolutely agree. The problem isn't just the human noble origins. The problem is that that there is an axe that comes down on your character at Ostagar that separates everything interesting about your character from the origins to your new role as Grey Warden. Like you said there are little connections that reference back to your origins but they're just cheaply done. The story was just badly done from Ostagar to the Landsmeet and by the time the end comes all the strings are tied up very quickly and poorly.

There is a fundamental flaw in the way the story was done. I've been trying to articulate what it is and I think it has something to do w/ squeezing 6 completely different origins into one story. It's like they made the hand be all different sizes and so accordingly the glove it goes in to has to be an amorphous blob to fit them all.

I tried to articulate the problem in this thread check it out and I would love to hear your overall breakdown of the fundamental flaw of DAO's story. http://social.biowar...47/index/260253 Cuz this is not a Human noble origin problem alone and you articulate it very well.

[Shady314]

koshiee wrote... and you articulate it very well.

:lol:LOL Writing a lot is not the same as writing well.

[koshiee]

and op please ignore all the fanboyism that wil inevitably come your way. I honestly think w/ more distance and more people having played the entire game and possibly multiple origin stories the serious plot failures of DAO wil become more and more apparent. I think people are just too excited w/ the game atm to see the glaring problems w/ the plot. And most reviewers who said the story was compelling, I honestly feel like they didn't finish the game. If you don't finish the game you don't realize how the central plot of your character never progresses and how the ending is so sloppily pasted together.

And lastly this I don't think OP is tryign to trash Bioware. I really hope someone from Bioware specifically David Gaider reads this cuz I like the universe they created but for they need to address the very bad plot decision they made in this game.  I hope w/ more time the problem will become more evident and won't be repeated in future games.

Modifié par koshiee, 22 novembre 2009 - 10:26 .

[Shady314]

Yes all who disagree with you are misguided fanboys that cannot see the true brilliance of your work. LOL Too funny!

[Endurium]

I disliked Loghain from day one of reading the Throne book; my opinion of him hasn't changed.



By the way, if you have good persuasion you can approach his tent in Ostagar and have a short meeting with him. Nothing is added to the codex but I thought it was a nice touch. Still don't like the guy though.



Alistair is much more like-able when hardened - he doesn't whine so much and I have more options in the end-game.

[Tamerlane94]

Gaspara wrote...

SLPr0 wrote...

I'm bringing these up in their own sections and putting it here in the Spoilers section because it will inevitably contain spoilers in regards to the story line. But I should, first, write the following disclaimer to ensure my intents are not misconstrued by the reader.

• I like Dragon Age: Origins quite a lot and I think its a fine game
• I have read both pre-quel books and played the game through three times now in variant ways
  
• This post has nothing to do with game dynamics, but everything to do with storyline dynamics.

Now with that disclaimer in place, let me move on to where I'd like to point at some things that I find frustrating in regards to the storyline inconsistencies I've personally found.
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Highever - The Dissapearing Tehyrin:

Human Noble Origin is a standard play through that almost everyone will likely try first or definitely try at least once. Starting off you are betrayed and your family slaughtered by Arl Howe of Amaranthine. This is a nice plot device to get the character moving, but slides out of focus entirely once the Grey Warden designation is added to the characters status.

Highever itself becomes completely inaccessible after said events, the Tehryin is barely visible on the map (no text), and at Ostagar you get like one or two lines of concern in regards to the apparent death of your entire noble family and concerns for your brother who is lost somewhere in the Wilds on "patrol" and you've given no real options there beyond that at that point.

Now, this becomes annoying in the story line plot at that point, your family is dead, your brother, the rightful Tehryn of Highever is missing and even more frustrating is the ill fated Ser Jory, who has a wife and child in Highever who doesn't even seem to know who you are, nor are you given any options to let him know that the Tehryn was taken by Arl Howe....guess it doesn't matter, since Jory is just a "redshirt" as things go, but regardless, its one of many holes in the human noble origin storyline that become more and more annoying as the game progresses.

Now largely, after Ostagar, this entire line of the story just falls flat on its face, you then become the Grey Warden, of noble line but no one seems to know or care (except in one case where you can assert your nobility at Flemeth's hut after rescue from Ostagar). the Tehryn of Highever, your much uglier brother Fergus is missing and nobody cares about that. And Arl Howe of Amaranthine, the betrayer of your family becomes a strange and sickening ally, indeed, to the Hero of the River Dane, Tehyrn Loghain of Gwaren, which makes very little sense.

Now for people that have not read the books and just see Loghain for his actions at Ostagar and go "he is the bad guy", I guess that makes plenty of sense that a weasel like Arl Howe would be his ally, but for the people that read the books this makes no sense at all, irregardless of Tehryn Loghains actions at Ostagar, we're talking about a man who rose from the peasantry of the Bannorn, the son of a farmer who killed an Orlesian lord for raping and killing his wife and took his family and household into hiding, becoming rebel brigands rather than further to accept the tyrrany of the Orlesian oppressors, this is where, after the death of the Rebel Queen, Loghain becomes involved with Maric the Saviour and eventually leads the rebellion to victory at the River Dane, placing the rightful heir of Calenhad back on the throne of Ferelden.

Loghains actions at Ostagar are unconscionable, but to suddenly take this very complex man and make him contemporaries with someone like Arl Howe is completely beyond understanding, Loghains distrust of the Grey Wardens has its legitimate roots, his betrayal of Cailan at Ostagar is horrible, especially understanding that he is the son of the woman he loved and a man he greatly protected and respected, but that, to me, in judgment of the character, still doesn't explain his sudden acceptance of a lying, traitorous toady like Arl Howe. Arl Howe is everything that Loghain is not, regardless of the sudden blackness of Loghain's character in Origins.

So anyways we get towards the end of the campaign and we're in Denerim, and the solution to the Howe crimes is a rather lackluster scene where you defeat Howe and a couple mages and minions in a dungeon....this is somehow "payment" for his crimes against your family and your line and "settles" the story of your families betrayal but it doesn't...why? Cause Highever still isn't there and at NO POINT in the game til the very last of it, do you finally find out that your bumble headed brother apparently took MONTHS to find his way out of the Wilds while you were busy running around saving the world. Its just tacked in there, nice and pat "oh hi I never made it to Ostagar I'm still alive and everythings great "pup" and I'll see you back at Highever some day...which isn't there".

This is crappy writing and in total while I'm sure going the direction I'd have gone, which is giving the player the ability to use their amassed armies to mount a campaign to retake Highever(and hey maybe your brother shows back up then? Makes a lot more sense to me) and use it as a base of operations from where you can recruit more men and then make a campaign into Amaranthine and visit vengence on Howe and his line PROPERLY.

Now...would that add 20 or so more hours to the game? Yes, probably...would that be a bad thing? No not at all, and it would make a lot more sense in regards to the story.

But just like the "civil war" was merely a Chanters board quest with a shoebox encounter fight involving like 12 people total, so the entire betrayal of the Cousland line is tied up and "solved" in a pat combat encounter in a 20x20 room in a dungeon in the Arl of Denerim's estate.

And again I will restate that indicating via the DA:O storyline that Arl Howe was the kind of man that someone like Loghain Mac Tir would even tolerate to be in the same room with him, regardless of his crime at Ostagar, is beyond believable. Loghain may have sacrificed Cailan for his own beliefs in regards to the safety of Ferelden, but at no time, not in either book nor in DA:O did Loghain Mac Tir strike me as the kind of man that would tolerate a cowardly court snake like Howe as an ally, or even an ally of convenience.

So all in all the Human Noble storyline completely falls on its face in regards to where it should have gone.
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Denerim - The Loghain/Alistair paradox and the literal sacrifice of Ser Cauthrien:

Another frustrating storyline element that bears heavy scrutiny which begins actually at the rescue of Queen Anora from the Arl of Denerim's estate. Where begins the bifurcation of the potentialities of the future leader/ruler of Ferelden and depending on your conversation choices with Ser Cauthrien Anora simply says nothing or outright lies and you get massively beat down and sent to Fort Drakon.

Now, not that I've spent a lot of time in jail but I will have to go with Terry Pratchett's fantasy cynicism here in full in regards to the Escape sidequest from Fort Drakon, it literally was 20 minutes of the most cliched fantasy RPG prison break of all time.

I mean seriously you've captured two of the technically most politically dangerous men in Denerim and the prison area is only being minded by one jailer, whos dumb enough to fall for the "fake illness" ploy (or the "lonely" ploy if you play a female, or so I understand), after which you of course, attack the guard...with your bare fists and do more damage than you do with heavy weapons and the guy is wearing armor.

Then somehow, someone in this Fort is dumb enough to literally place your high end weapons and armor in an easily accessible box right where you can get to it and no one will notice anything is amiss and then even worse not a stones throw away from that box is an armory area where you can conveniently get dressed up like a guard and then completely pass ALL NOTICE entirely within Fort Drakon, do a couple minor information quests, and be given the password to walk straight out of the place with no one the wiser.

Now while I could go on at length at the absolute abuse of literary fantasy cliches in Fort Drakon, its nothing in the face of the Alistair/Loghain paradox that occurs at the end of the Landsmeet honor duel.

For oh, at least two or three hours, since his royal blood is revealed, Alistair complains bitterly about not wanting to be king, he has conversations with party members about the  "extent" of his relationship with his half brother Cailan, making great light of the fact that there was little if no relationship at all, he spends plenty of time deriding the importance of Maric laying with a serving girl to produce him as a bastard, all and all hes just not interested in being king at all, but will reluctantly agree (with high persuasion) to marry Anora and share the throne with her...for the optimal best of both worlds approach,

But after the honor duel, you are faced with a choice, you may exact justice on Loghain, the Hero of the River Dane, the man who literally carried Maric's banner and restored the Ferelden throne for his crime at Ostagar, which will result in Anora and Alistair breaking their deal then you have to choose one or the other of them.

Or you can choose to make Loghain a Grey Warden, which to me is a fantastic penance for a man who had done so much wrong to the Wardens (at his age, the Calling would not take long to take him, after all, and theres always the chance he won't survive) and also gives what was once a great man a chance to redeem himself or at least atone, through his death fighting the archdemon, for his crimes at Ostagar.

But...no, this is absolutely unacceptable to Alistair, its like he doesn't even know the history of his own country, its like he doesn't understand who Loghain is at all other than the "guy who betrayed King Cailan and the Grey Wardens at Ostagar" which is patently stupid especially for the royal bastard of Maric, it is a blind spot in literary license that is nearly unforgivable, there should be no question in Alistair's mind as to the potential gain of Loghain as an ally, unwilling or not, as compared to the further need for bloodshed against a man who, while committed great crimes against Ferelden, had only done so out of his twisted sense of loss that all of it that he had truly loved and fought for had died (Rowan and Maric, to be succinct) and Ferelden was all he had left, the years of his life spent in the reestablishment of the Ferelden nation was all he had left, beyond Cailan, and once he was willing to abandon Cailan to the darkspawn, any means to defend Ferelden, up to slavery and civil war, would seem justified in a man so heart broken and alone.

You would think given this understanding of who Loghain truly is, that Alistair would understand the rightness that Loghain be given the opportunity to join them to end the blight, or to at least die trying under the Proving ritual, and that he would relent, be he does not, if you press your claim for Loghain's life, Alistair, after months of traveling and shedding blood with you, regardless of how high your relationship is with him, throws all reason out the window, forgets everything about Loghain's historical contributions to the Ferelden nation, appears to forget that mercy is a kingly virtue and completely loses his mind.

You are then, stuck with a single choice, you may no longer bring Anora and Alistair together, and it is literally a 1 or 0 choice. You must support Anora to save Loghain, or you must support Alistair, and Loghain will die....whether by your hand or his. And Anora gets stuck in a tower because Alistair's such a gentleman.

If you choose Anora to save Loghain, Alistair suddenly becomes the worlds most whiny, unreasonable person in the history of video games and your entire relationship with him is suddenly shattered, and he leaves the party never to return, and you can only save his life by asking a boon of Anora because otherwise shes going to have him executed as a threat to her throne....I had hoped that requesting that boon would restore some of his faith in me as his friend and he would return in the final battles, but he did not.

So in total, in the Alistair/Loghain paradox, we have Alistair, who doesn't want to be king at all, suddenly willing to take the throne if it means the death of Loghain, a man he surely knows the true history of and a man that regardless of his crimes Alistair should at least respect for the service of his life to Ferelden. Also should you thwart him, his oath as a Grey Warden and all his anguish for Duncan and the losses at Ostagar mean nothing compared to his angst at the thought of Loghain becoming a Grey Warden himself (which is a death sentence either way as the storyline reveals).

Alistair's inability to see duty and need over his personal feelings comes as a story shaking twist, especially if hes been supported well by the player and has a strong relationship with the player. And his inability to accept the Grey Warden's standard of taking any help they can find and achieving victory by any means necessary, does Alistair's character no justice at all, its like hes a petty child, not a Grey Warden. Now I am unsure if you go through a hardening process with Alistair whether he will accept Loghain or not, I always get very buddy buddy with Alistair throughout my playthroughs because I just like the guy....so I never harden him at all. But after having devoured the prequels it was my intent in this last playthrough to find a way to spare Loghain Mac Tir and to have found a way to use him and make him see the error of his ways. Doing so at the price of losing Alistair to relative obscurity (the final message on him is that a man matching his description was found in an alehouse, drunk and raving about being a prince and a Grey Warden...how ignoble an end for such a vibrant character) is simply almost too much to bear. And in the face of the Blight, and the Wardens Oath....it makes no sense that he simply just takes his ball and goes home. And is hardly what I expected of him as a character and the son of Maric.

And thus ends the line of Calenhad....somewhere in an Antivan Alehouse.

On Ser Cauthrien - Another Wasted Destiny in a Shoebox Encounter:

And so we come to Ser Cauthrien a minor annoyance in the path of the hero at the Arl of Denerim's Estate, and should you be captured, someone who takes it upon themselves to sacrifice their lives in an attempt to keep you from speaking at the Landsmeet.

Now whether this is planned or not is never established, it can be assumed since the soldiers with her are "Loghain's Guard" that we should apparently believe the Tehyrn of Gwaren is simply a murderous, evil bastard, and, given that your corpses would be at the door of the Landsmeet and his guards covered in your blood an extremely inept one at that because that would hardly avert the civil war that would occur should the hero's story end there.

But no, the hero's story cannot be ended in such an ignoble way only redshirts like Ser Cauthrien are worthy of being so easily written off. Regardless of that, Ser Cauthrien gives you no opportunity to turn her, she is loyal to the Tehryn to the bitter end, and thusly dies a quick and rather wasteful death in yet another 20x20 space in the world, when her destiny given the coming story, would imply so much more for her.

So we return to the end of the honor duel, Loghain is defeated and is awaiting judgement, your refusal to spare his life sparks confilict between Anora and Alistair and supporting Alistair, Anora is placed in a tower. And its all nicely sanded off as if that works just fine.

But politically it does not work, even if you've gained the support of every possible Lord in the Landsmeet, there is still at least ONE of them that stands behind Loghain and the sudden deposement of  Anora, a well loved ruler and the Queen of the former king and her replacement with Maric's bastard would be sure to drive a deeper wedge in the Landsmeet support, thusly opening a new potential chapter in of which Ser Cauthrien, instead of being wasted, mounts a rebellion and frees Anora, the now rightful Tehryna of Gwaren, from imprisonment, and splits the army and the support in the Landsmeet between Anora, the former queen, and Maric's bastard, the unknown and untested Alistair.

And instead of a rather meaningless trip to Redcliffe which almost immediately sends you back to Denerim at breakneck speed, to "save the world and win the game" you gain another 5 - 10 hours of content regarding Denerim political intrigues and marching on Gwaren to close the division of the country by conquering Gwaren and gaining the blood oath of loyalty from Anora to the crown and unifying the country under Alistair solidly and there in that more appropriate of settings, Ser Cauthrien can die, or perhaps even survive.

But no, instead of that, Cauthrien dies a redshirts death, Anora is imprisoned in a tower and the country after having watched one of its greatest heroes executed and the Queen deposed is happily and favorably united with a tiny little Bravehearty speech from Alistair and off to Redcliffe we go, to save the world,only to immediately get sent back to Denerim 15 minutes later
________________________________________________________________________________________

Now, I'm not a professional writer, but I am a professional game developer and I find lore to be of almost unignorable importance in regards to RPG game development and it seems to me that so much of the lore was treated so cheaply and represented badly or resolved in such small ways that were well beneath the true scale and capacity of the story and characters we're dealing with, that I almost suspect everything, post Landsmeet was heavily cut and edited to reduce time committment and further development time from the games development schedule by EA themselves, if not then the only other excuse that comes to mind is that by that point David Gaider was so exhausted that he'd lost touch with his own story, and in some respects, even with the characters he had created, the be simply phoned in the final part of the game based story. Because I find it difficult to believe, given the prequel lore, that Mr. Gaider would be so quick to represent Loghain Mac Tir as shallowly as a power hungry madman, when it is quite obvious to anyone that has read the prequel books that Loghain Mac Tir could never be so easily circumscribed  as the atypical high fantasy "bad guy" Regent/Grand Vizier that is so boringly cliche in the high fantasy genre of popular fiction these days.

And the wasted opportunities, at Highever, Amaranthine and Gwaren, again are simply more evidence that the story....beyond the whole "stop the blight, save the world" was largely abandoned, and this story, I am afraid, is the story of Ferelden as it should have been told, in my opinion, and it was not.

To be frank, and honest, I'd have traded all the Blackstone Irregulars content, Mages Circle and Chantry side questing, I'd have traded Gaxkhang and Asunder and I might have even have traded some of the companion sidequests (but hopfeully not), I'd have traded all the annoying road interruptions from the persistant dwarf merchant who "attacked" me far more often than any roving bands of darkspawn or anything else in the game while map traveling....simply to have seen the development time that went into these small end color quest be focused on more truly defining and presenting the Human Noble Origin...and the places it should have went, but never did....on Towns and Tehryns we should have seen as something other than a slightly house shaped image in an unreachable part of the map, and on truly bringing closure to the Cousland origin in a more active fashion than "you killed the weasel guy in a basement and your brother miraculously reappears at the end of the game to make you feel all warm and fuzzy" after you've had to cheaply waste the lives of several people who could have played greater parts and executed the greatest Hero of Ferelden simply to supplant his legend with our own.

There was so much more that could have been done with the human origin storyline. And while the game continues to keep me enthralled and willing to play it (I am looking quite forward to my Dwarf Noble playthrough I am hoping the resolutions in Orzammar are far more deep and interesting but I have a sneaking suspiscion that they will simply play the plot element of you having no house as you were exiled and you just get stuck choosing between Harrowmont and Bhelen as per the regular storyline experienced by the human noble origin...which makes that part of the game seem both tantalizing and potentially full of great dissapointment aswell, depending on how cheaply it is handled.)

So anyways this is a very long post, and I will get a lot of TLDR out of it and even potentially people that will read the entire thing and agree or disagree with me and that is fine...but I simply had to write this out, after several human noble completions, because I felt the true story of that origin was so pat and trite that it fell extremely short of its true potential.

No offense to David Gaider or any of the other writing team that I may be making judgments on here, these are simply the opinions of an ardent bibliophile who loves how much the story translated into an interactive experience but sees so much of what "might have been".

And for those that will say "hey wait for DLC content I bet they'll cover that" DLC content of what "might have happened" or "should have happened" I think, would be a bit silly, sort of like a weird episode of Star Trek where everyones experiencing parallel dimensions, no, from here, in DLC's and expansions and, gods willing, a sequel somewhere down the line, we can only go forward, til our Calling, and our death in the deep roads, fighting the darkspawn to our last breath.

Could you expand on that?

[*]truly great reply

[Forsakerr]

i also read the books so i know his story. I played as a human noble and i m pretty sure your family was killed under the order of Loghain just as Arl Eamon was poisoned ,he betrayed the king,he caused havok in the circle of magi ,sold elves to slavery,got people tortured ,sent assassins,mercenaries,guards and what not after you but because he was a hero in the last war he should be forgiven everything and join the grey wardens with you and Alistair as punishment? I certainly think not i played a bunch of origins and i cant even think about betraying Alistair and all the people who died or would have died if i did nt borked his plans, to have him fight beside me as a brother in arms? well forget it ,as some other people said beeing a hero does not give you the right or excuses to do all what he did , after having tons of attempt to get me killed, hunted and blamed for the death of the king well hell yeah i would chop his head off and no way i would accept him to fight beside me in any origins, the guy had turned mad

[KalosCast]

I generally agree on a number of points, that the civil war that you're trying to avert was apparently important enough to be a selling point on the back of the retail box but not big enough a deal to ever show up in the storyline except for one Chantry board.



However, I feel like the Ser Cauthrine thing was handled relatively well, and I was more disappointed with the Grey Warden betrayal thing quite literally having nobody critical to the story actually believe Loghain's accusation and it having no bearing whatsoever on how your character can walk anywhere in available game locations -including Denerim- and only have 1 instance of being called out on it...

[5Warlocks]

Loghain is a great character and I wish he had more development during the meat of the campaign.



That being said, there are more story outcomes--some of which you'd like better than what you saw--than you seem to realize. The Landsmeet has something like five or six possible resolutions. Maybe more, I've only completed it twice now with a bit of reloading to experiment.



I'm sympathetic to your points overall--I have not read the books, but I may now if Loghain gets more development there--but the Cauthrien outcome was definitely your own fault. It's very easy to spare her.

[Lianaar]

I have been called on it numerous times and people turned down the chance to help me due to it in human walking environment. I have people attack me for it not once or twice...I have people secretly helping me with accidentally lending keys to values in my hand... I was actually pleased with that part.
But then, my 1st playthough was over 130 playing hours, so I took my time to look around in the world.

edit: also Loghain might be a hero, but the Grey Wardens already stopped 4 blights, right? Soooo it is not like the grey wardens are that discredible or anything. They surely have a more important part then Loghain. I was more surprised to see that he can pull off such an accusation.

Modifié par Lianaar, 22 novembre 2009 - 10:59 .

[koshiee]

Shady314 wrote...

Yes all who disagree with you are misguided fanboys that cannot see the true brilliance of your work. LOL Too funny!

and here we have another example of blind fanboyism.
This isn't about the "brilliance" of "my" work. It's about pointing out a serious flaw in DAO. I want to like to DAO. If I didn't I wouldn't bother trying to figure out what is wrong w/ it.

But back on topic. If you started the game from Ostagar you could literally play as almost any variation of any character and have only minimal issues w/ the plot. For example if you played as a mage and then respecced yourself as a Dalish warrior the only plot issue would be that Jowan would say he knows you when he actually doesn't, the Dalish would call you a shem when they shouldn't. And maybe a few more conversation bugs here and there but other than that the game woud play exactly the same. That's a problem.

Unchanging plot points regardless of origin:
-Choose btwn Lord Harrowmont and Lord Bhalen
-Choose to destroy the anvil or save it
-Free Mage tower: kill mages or not
-Free Redcliffe: kill jowan, boy and or mom or not
- Side w/ wolves or Zathrian and/or bring joint peace
- Landsmeet: chose ruler of Feralden : Anora alone, Alistair alone, Anora + Alistair, variations of Alistair leaving you and Loghain joining you. Extra option for Human Noble: become king or queen yourself  alone or w/ joint rule of Anora or Alistair
- Morrigan - giver her baby and she stays or refuse and she leaves


The only major plot point that can be affected by your origins is at Landsmeet and the results of that decision only affect the plot in a significant way in the epilogue. The biggest in game plot impact of Landsmeet is having Alistair or Loghain in your party and any origin can get either of those outcomes.

So the obvious reason the devs. did it this way is so that the players of all the origins can experience the major plot points and one origins doesn't affect the plot while others don't thus making the origins very unbalanced. The problem is that the only dimesion that your character has is found in the origins and since the origins has very minor impact on the main plot itself they seem almost truncated from the main plot. Name one interesting thing about the main character other than (s)he is a grey warden and something from the origins.  Obviously saving Feralden does not count cuz that is something that is interesting about your character after the game is over and makes your character interesting after the fact. But other than being a Grey Warden the plot doesn't really offer any more information about your character and that to me is what makes the main character and subsequently the main plot  generic and impersonal.

And it's not about being "the chosen one" or whatever it's about having depth of character that progresses hand in hand w/ the overarching plot.

Modifié par koshiee, 22 novembre 2009 - 11:30 .