147 réponses à ce sujet

[bjdbwea]

I agree with a good deal of the initial post, but let's face it: You'll always find these kinds of inconsistencies in any game, movie or book. I think there are a few points in the game where BioWare really wasted potential, like the character of Ser Cauthrien who would've deserved more than being cannon fodder. Also the final confrontation with Arl Howe was very disappointing. Apart from that, I certainly would've liked more choices in many conversations, even more depth to the characters, but there's ever only so much you can do. Let's not forget that apparently you can make more money with simple shooter games that offer you no influence whatsoever.



With one criticism I have to agree: The Blackstone Irregulars, Mages Circle and Chantry side quests are mostly uninteresting and shallow, even immersion-breaking because of their unrealistic implementation (the 5 messengers come to mind). Time spend there should've been put in fewer, but better quests that actually blend into the game world.

[Lianaar]

I must say that in the Landsmeet it mattered a lot that I am a dalish elf and not a noble. People simply said: what, you are an elf, why would we believe you.

[SLPr0]

Maria Caliban wrote...

1. A great deal of your argument is based on the idea that Loghian from the book is obviously the most wonderful dude ever and that if anyone, in the setting or in the real world, thinks he's anything other than a great individual, they are nuts.

It’s great that you’re a Loghain fanboy, but calling a fanboy rant ‘literary criticism’ is… well, it’s what a lot of literary critic do, so I can’t fault you for that one.

2. You can have Loghian live and have Alistiar and Anora marry.

3. You don't have to kill Ser Cauthrine; I certainly didn't.

4. The game, as is, is already 80 hours long and full of content. Yes, MAOR would be great, but that's not going to happen. I understand wanting MAOR. I want MAOR myself, but BioWare has to draw the line somewhere.

I'm more saying the Loghain of Ferelden is a great man, he is, quite obviously, given his life history.

I was unable to engineer any responses that allowed Loghain to live and Alistair to remain and my relationship with Alistair was 100%.the options once taking Riordan's offer seriously get pretty limited and as I said boil down to a 1 or 0 choice for me between Anora and Alistair. After taking Riordan's offer seriously, you get four options, to side with Alistair, to side with Anora, to tell Alistair "Grey Wardens take help where they can get it" or "Weren't you two going to marry?", I chose the "Weren't you two going to marry option" and Alistair shot back at me "Its funny how plans seem to change isn't it?"...then I was given basically the option to side with Anora or Alistair, siding with Anora saves Loghain, siding with Alistair condemns him to death. Perhaps I should have chosen the Grey Warden response....but it seemed the more callous of the two non-siding options.

In the cutscene prior to the Landsmeet, I attempted to reason with Ser Cauthrein and with 4 ranks of persuasion and fairly high cunning for a DW Warrior I was unable to sway her. I think my cunning was 26. Maybe it needs to be higher, maybe rogue characters have an easier time of it, I'm not sure. But thats the only persuasion attempt available that I failed in the game.

And yes I'd love "moar" as you put it but this isn't about "moar" this is about what should have been. Its about the use of extremely thin plot devices to simply push the whole "save the world, be the hero" "The Blight" quest campaign, and ignores the literary possibilities in favor of what I considered to be cheap cliched resolutions which did not do the story as much justice as they could have done.

[Lianaar]

Partly you are right. This is not a book, this is not a movie, this is not a table top game with a DM responding to every move you make. This is a PC game. This has limitations. I agree, there are tonnes of chances which weren't used. They could have been? Certainly. I am sure even the developers saw those options. They didn't use them. For their reasons.



However I also feel that some of your complaints come from the consequences of the decisions you made in game. I did stumble into my origine stories here and there. I did feel the weight of being accused by Loghain. I felt his power and saw his personality from many angels. I talked with the king, I talked with Loghain before the battle, and Loghain was quite nice to me. How can you however say Alistair and I were not personally targetted? That was 50% of the game!! Us being personally targeted. There is quite a long thread about why Alistair could not endure Loghain. He had his reasons. Weather you agree with those or not is up to you.



What I can state for facts is

- people attacked me over and over for being a grey warden

- people didn't open up for me for being a dalish elf

- half of the landsmeet laughed in my face as I was just an elf

- I couldn't become queen as I was an elf

- people tried to hiddenly help me for being a grey warden

- gender references came through the story over and over again

- quests due to class came over, which I found fitting

- Cauthrin can be saved, even convinced to pick your side

- the decisions I made affected the way people responded to me and how the ending options came to be.



Howe was unfortunate. I am curious why that line was cut so short. I wished to learn more of him. As a noble I wanted to have his head on a spike and store it on the top of my castle for the years to come. I can not RP it in the game, but I can add it in my fantasy. The game is not able to be a DM after all.



I think this game came as close as simulating table top as close a PC game is able to. However nothing can replace the impulsiveness and depth of person to person interaction in RPG.

[Valariya]

Without having read the prequel books myself, I think Loghains past was shown fairly well, in how accepting almost everyone was of his current behavior. He was able to get away with almost anything because of the love the people and even the other nobles had for him. Even his own daughter saw how twisted he became and was convinced he abandoned her husband and left him to die at Ostagar, yet it took the entire game and Howe' imprisoning her before she finally realized how far gone he was. Yet still, if you support Allistiar over her for rule, she sides with Loghain. There's also several characters who're generally good people, who blindly follow Loghain because he's such a great man, who with just a little effort can can be convinced to stop lying to themselves.



On the rest I generally agree, some very lackluster endings to several story arcs where there was so much potential was really disappointing to see. Especially the "missing brother". I mean really? He could've been one of the random people that were in the jail cells at Howes estate, or any number of things. Just popping up out of nowhere right after you finally saved the world is a cheap tie up of loose ends.



Still love the game reguardless and I'm currently playing thru as a good girl mage. Well sorta good girl.. when there was nobody else around to judge me I let the Desire Demon in the Fade teach me blood magic. Hopefully this origin ending will be less disappointing..

[Promethean 47]

" irregardless " - not a word

[Promethean 47]

I agree the Noble Origin is poorly resolved, but I didn't find it very compelling to begin with.



I think your complaints about Loghain associating with Howe don't hold much water. Loghain does whatever HE deems to be in the best interests of Ferelden, no matter how gruesome or terrible those things may be.



I think the promise of the origins isn't really delivered on (See zero punctuation review) past shallow 'you are a silly elf' dialogue responses at certain times. To me the origins all called for some sort of custom stronghold or other type of resolution area specific to the respective origin. That calls for a lot of resources though, so understandable why it didn't happen. Who knows what Bioware wanted vs. what they actually delivered.

[SLPr0]

Promethean 47 wrote...

" irregardless " - not a word

I love how people point this out.

I know its not a word, its a horrible habit I picked up from my irish grandmother, god rest her soul, because she used to use it all the time.

So its just an automatically used word which is redundant to typing "regardless" and I'm aware of that, but we all have our quirks.

[EatinMcRib]

SLPr0 wrote...

Promethean 47 wrote...

" irregardless " - not a word

I love how people point this out.

I know its not a word, its a horrible habit I picked up from my irish grandmother, god rest her soul, because she used to use it all the time.

So its just an automatically used word which is redundant to typing "regardless" and I'm aware of that, but we all have our quirks.

I have to admit, seeing it there did make me laugh for a bit before I could recompose and read the rest of your post. At least you're aware of it, so it's all good.

Modifié par EatinMcRib, 23 novembre 2009 - 03:31 .

[red8x]

I found Alistair's need for revenge to be extraordinarily irrational and stubborn.  If Loghain is given a reprieve Alistair leaves the party essentially turning his back on Duncan, the Grey Wardens, and all of Ferelden.  He chooses his need for vengeance over the fate of Ferelden, preferring to see the land swallowed up by the Blight and the Archdemon than having Loghain spared.  This, to me, is the definition of evil. 

What I find rather comical, however, is if you allow Alistair to quench his thirst for revenge, he can be easily persuaded to jump into bed with Morrigan for her "dark ritual" (which in the end really didn't look like anything other run of the mill sex - dark ritual my ass!).  Anyway, my point being, Alistair's moral compass is something of a mystery to me. 

[SeanMurphy2]

I think that Alistair was wrong to make such a fuss about it.

The Blight is still such a big threat. Everyone needs to put aside their personal problems and unite to stop it. If Alistair has a problem with Loghain, he can take care of it after we have ended the Blight.

What if Loghain dies during the ritual? Then it is just me and Riordin as the only two Grey Wardens. What if having a third Grey Warden made the difference in stopping the Blight.

What would Duncan think of him deserting at such a critical moment. Duncan would have thought that stopping the Blight is the only thing that is important.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 23 novembre 2009 - 04:50 .

[Sarethus]

SLPr0 wrote...

I'm more saying the Loghain of Ferelden is a great man, he is, quite obviously, given his life history.

I was unable to engineer any responses that allowed Loghain to live and Alistair to remain and my relationship with Alistair was 100%.the options once taking Riordan's offer seriously get pretty limited and as I said boil down to a 1 or 0 choice for me between Anora and Alistair. After taking Riordan's offer seriously, you get four options, to side with Alistair, to side with Anora, to tell Alistair "Grey Wardens take help where they can get it" or "Weren't you two going to marry?", I chose the "Weren't you two going to marry option" and Alistair shot back at me "Its funny how plans seem to change isn't it?"...then I was given basically the option to side with Anora or Alistair, siding with Anora saves Loghain, siding with Alistair condemns him to death. Perhaps I should have chosen the Grey Warden response....but it seemed the more callous of the two non-siding options.

In the cutscene prior to the Landsmeet, I attempted to reason with Ser Cauthrein and with 4 ranks of persuasion and fairly high cunning for a DW Warrior I was unable to sway her. I think my cunning was 26. Maybe it needs to be higher, maybe rogue characters have an easier time of it, I'm not sure. But thats the only persuasion attempt available that I failed in the game.

And yes I'd love "moar" as you put it but this isn't about "moar" this is about what should have been. Its about the use of extremely thin plot devices to simply push the whole "save the world, be the hero" "The Blight" quest campaign, and ignores the literary possibilities in favor of what I considered to be cheap cliched resolutions which did not do the story as much justice as they could have done.

Loghain might have been a great man but he is a great man who "fell". His hatred for Orlais and love for Ferelden nation (if not for it's people) made him great when he was younger and made him fall in the game. Also Howe didn't become Loghain's ally after Ostagar but was rather Loghain's ally before he attacked the Couslands. As far as your points Howe being a toady etc he is all those things but he was one of the few allies Loghain was able to find. If your looking for people to help you betray allies & take over a country don't be surprised that you will mostly find people like Howe.

@bolded: I honestly don't know what to say here. A large part of the forum seems to complain about Alaister being a spineless wimp and yet when you come across the one area that he does make a stand you complain. To put it quite simply there are quite a few things that Alistair might go along with (Killing Isolde to free a child from a demon or Killing the child to spare the world from an ambomination) but there are quite a few things that Alistair simply will not do. Letting Loghain go free is one of them.

Lelianna & Wynn for example both go ballistic if I try to pour blood in a certain object in their presence, no matter how high my approval with them is or if I am giving Lelianna whole gardens of Andraste's flowers.

To be honest I prefer it that way. Knowing that characters are characters and have their own desires rather then automatons that will go with what ever I think right. You can persuade them on a lot of things but not on everything. 
 
 

[tanstaafl28]

It seems to me that you should know only too well that there are always a few "loose ends" in these sorts of games. There simply is far too much content and too many decision trees to possibly develop every single plot line and get the game out on time. Some compromises are going to be made along the way.



Perhaps some of these "loose threads" can be addressed via DLC. Also, there is a toolset, I suspect that, given your stated background (and tendancy towards verbosity) you might be motivated enough to address some of your plot concerns all by yourself. Have at (and let me know what you come up with, as I might be interested in play-testing it).

[DariusKalera]

Personally, I feel that Alistair's problem with Loghain becoming a Grey Warden stems from the fact that Alistair had only been one for a very short while. He, like his brother, were in love with the mystique of what they thought the Wardens were and not what they actually are. He knew of the ritual (partially), and he knew of the life expectancy, but that was basically it. He did not know that a Warden had to be the one to get the death blow on the Archdemon nor did he know that in doing so, the Warden would die. If he had known that, then I believe that he would have had a moment of common sense and allowed Loghain to go through the ritual.



The first time I played through the game I liked having Alistair around. I enjoyed the conversations between hm and my toon and the banter he had with Morrigan. But, after the Landsmeet and his reactions there, I could see that he was "really" no different than Loghain. Both were willing to put their country in danger because of their personal beliefs.

[SLPr0]

Sarethus wrote...

SLPr0 wrote...

I'm more saying the Loghain of Ferelden is a great man, he is, quite obviously, given his life history.

I was unable to engineer any responses that allowed Loghain to live and Alistair to remain and my relationship with Alistair was 100%.the options once taking Riordan's offer seriously get pretty limited and as I said boil down to a 1 or 0 choice for me between Anora and Alistair. After taking Riordan's offer seriously, you get four options, to side with Alistair, to side with Anora, to tell Alistair "Grey Wardens take help where they can get it" or "Weren't you two going to marry?", I chose the "Weren't you two going to marry option" and Alistair shot back at me "Its funny how plans seem to change isn't it?"...then I was given basically the option to side with Anora or Alistair, siding with Anora saves Loghain, siding with Alistair condemns him to death. Perhaps I should have chosen the Grey Warden response....but it seemed the more callous of the two non-siding options.

In the cutscene prior to the Landsmeet, I attempted to reason with Ser Cauthrein and with 4 ranks of persuasion and fairly high cunning for a DW Warrior I was unable to sway her. I think my cunning was 26. Maybe it needs to be higher, maybe rogue characters have an easier time of it, I'm not sure. But thats the only persuasion attempt available that I failed in the game.

And yes I'd love "moar" as you put it but this isn't about "moar" this is about what should have been. Its about the use of extremely thin plot devices to simply push the whole "save the world, be the hero" "The Blight" quest campaign, and ignores the literary possibilities in favor of what I considered to be cheap cliched resolutions which did not do the story as much justice as they could have done.

Loghain might have been a great man but he is a great man who "fell". His hatred for Orlais and love for Ferelden nation (if not for it's people) made him great when he was younger and made him fall in the game. Also Howe didn't become Loghain's ally after Ostagar but was rather Loghain's ally before he attacked the Couslands. As far as your points Howe being a toady etc he is all those things but he was one of the few allies Loghain was able to find. If your looking for people to help you betray allies & take over a country don't be surprised that you will mostly find people like Howe.

@bolded: I honestly don't know what to say here. A large part of the forum seems to complain about Alaister being a spineless wimp and yet when you come across the one area that he does make a stand you complain. To put it quite simply there are quite a few things that Alistair might go along with (Killing Isolde to free a child from a demon or Killing the child to spare the world from an ambomination) but there are quite a few things that Alistair simply will not do. Letting Loghain go free is one of them.

Lelianna & Wynn for example both go ballistic if I try to pour blood in a certain object in their presence, no matter how high my approval with them is or if I am giving Lelianna whole gardens of Andraste's flowers.

To be honest I prefer it that way. Knowing that characters are characters and have their own desires rather then automatons that will go with what ever I think right. You can persuade them on a lot of things but not on everything. 
 
 

@Your Bolded: This is making a huge assumption that the betrayal of House Cousland and the Terhyn of Highever was planned by Loghain even previous to Highevers commitment of troops to the Ostagar offensive. And I find this to be a high assumption indeed. Because I do not believe that Loghain, until the War Council at Ostagar had made any decisions in regards to his quitting the field and leaving Cailan and the Grey Wardens to fall to the Dark Spawn.

The fall of the Tehryin of Highever, to me, is simply the machinations of Arl Howe, taking an opportunity to make a grab for power in the confusion where he could more or less engineer the truth of matters afterwards. You notice in Denerim when you first arrive for the Landsmeet and confront him that he says that he proved your family were "traitors to the King"....how this is established is a little beyond my ability to assume, as he appears, after Ostagar aligned with Loghain, so where is this "King" he exposed your family as traitors to? Surely not Cailan, who greets you at Ostagar and promises justice.

So again I stand behind my assessment that Arl Howe isn't even in the same league as Loghain, Arl Howe did what he did for himself, Loghain did what he did based in his paranoia of Orlais and the Grey Wardens, which he had great reason for, given Maric's disappearrance with them in The Calling, and while his actions were twisted and wrong they were the actions of a man that would sell his very soul for the land he walked on.

I do not believe Loghain had anything to do with the Terhyin of Highever's fall. And I can only look at Arl Howe's presence as an ally of Loghain's based on Howe's own deciet, and even then, Howe is the type of Orlesian boot licker Loghain would have had little use for in the Stolen Throne, the rightful Arl of Amaranthine actually joined the rebellion in the Stolen Throne very early on and was killed and his entire family killed, so Arl Howe was an Orlesian King's appointment to replace him and likely only joined the rebellion as it marched on the gates of Denerim itself.

Loghain's poisoning of Arl Eamon makes sense after the Ostagar betrayal, as it neutralizes a strong opponent of Theiren blood to Loghain's intent after the Ostagar event, that intent being to ensure the nation of Ferelden is ruled and protected in the way he believes it deserves. And at no time does he attempt to usurp the throne, he simply declares himself Regent to Anora's throne.

Loghain, as twisted as he becomes, never stops being the taciturn young man we see in the forest when he first meets Maric, the proud commoner who refused knighthood at the hands of the rightful king, and he did not, in my opinion, have any illusions of placing himself upon the throne of Ferelden. That would, quite simply, so far out of character for Loghain that it would be rather stupid, so I'm glad, at least, that they never intimated such was his intention.

[Kaedrin]

Anora will NOT marry whoever kills Loghain. So if you had Alistair do the deed, any marriage deal he and Anora had will fall through.

Paths:
You become king alone (human noble)
You marry Anora (human noble, you either spare Loghain or Alistair kills him)
Alistair marries Anora (you either spare Loghain or you kill him)
Anora becomes queen alone
Alistair becomes king alone

Modifié par Kaedrin, 23 novembre 2009 - 05:42 .

[SeanMurphy2]

I don't think Loghain was involved with what happened at Highever. There was no guarantee that Cailan would die. And it was too early to know what the battle plans would be or that they would face a huge Darkspawn horde. Or how the nobles would react to Cailan's death.



Teyrn of Highever is a powerful position. So it makes sense to have Howe on his side.



The schemes involving Jowan and Uldred probably happened after Ostager.

[Vicious]

Alistair didn't read the DA novels and so doesn't know that Loghain was actually a good guy once and could be again.



Now apply that to 99% of the people who play DAO.



Your argument makes sense in the OVERALL lore perspective, but in the perspective of the game it's POINTLESS. Loghain is the bad guy, and that's it.

[Vicious]

Oh, that said, I think Duncan would right there with Riordan saying to make Loghain a Grey Warden.

[Vinditater]

Your argument was very well delivered, and I quite agree on your thoughts about the Human Noble story. I too spent time looking for Fergus, or at least have someone listen to me about why I could be a bit sad my entire family was slaughtered and the murderer is lounging comfortably in Denerim.



Unfortunately many people who click on this will not read it in its entirety. The best example is the first person to comment on your post cannot even spell soldier correctly.



Either way I hope your thread is seen and maybe some fixes could be in order to flesh out the story.

[Forsakerr]

SLPr0 wrote...



This is making a huge assumption that the betrayal of House Cousland and the Terhyn of Highever was planned by Loghain even previous to Highevers commitment of troops to the Ostagar offensive. And I find this to be a high assumption indeed. Because I do not believe that Loghain, until the War Council at Ostagar had made any decisions in regards to his quitting the field and leaving Cailan and the Grey Wardens to fall to the Dark Spawn.



The fall of the Tehryin of Highever, to me, is simply the machinations of Arl Howe, taking an opportunity to make a grab for power in the confusion where he could more or less engineer the truth of matters afterwards. You notice in Denerim when you first arrive for the Landsmeet and confront him that he says that he proved your family were "traitors to the King"....how this is established is a little beyond my ability to assume, as he appears, after Ostagar aligned with Loghain, so where is this "King" he exposed your family as traitors to? Surely not Cailan, who greets you at Ostagar and promises justice.



So again I stand behind my assessment that Arl Howe isn't even in the same league as Loghain, Arl Howe did what he did for himself, Loghain did what he did based in his paranoia of Orlais and the Grey Wardens, which he had great reason for, given Maric's disappearrance with them in The Calling, and while his actions were twisted and wrong they were the actions of a man that would sell his very soul for the land he walked on.



I do not believe Loghain had anything to do with the Terhyin of Highever's fall. And I can only look at Arl Howe's presence as an ally of Loghain's based on Howe's own deciet, and even then, Howe is the type of Orlesian boot licker Loghain would have had little use for in the Stolen Throne, the rightful Arl of Amaranthine actually joined the rebellion in the Stolen Throne very early on and was killed and his entire family killed, so Arl Howe was an Orlesian King's appointment to replace him and likely only joined the rebellion as it marched on the gates of Denerim itself.



Loghain's poisoning of Arl Eamon makes sense after the Ostagar betrayal, as it neutralizes a strong opponent of Theiren blood to Loghain's intent after the Ostagar event, that intent being to ensure the nation of Ferelden is ruled and protected in the way he believes it deserves. And at no time does he attempt to usurp the throne, he simply declares himself Regent to Anora's throne.



Loghain, as twisted as he becomes, never stops being the taciturn young man we see in the forest when he first meets Maric, the proud commoner who refused knighthood at the hands of the rightful king, and he did not, in my opinion, have any illusions of placing himself upon the throne of Ferelden. That would, quite simply, so far out of character for Loghain that it would be rather stupid, so I'm glad, at least, that they never intimated such was his intention.

Loghain knows that Howle did have your family killed (and he does he told it to you in the king's camp) and he still sides with him ? pretty suspicious if you ask me, i still believe he s the one responsible for the attack on your family because your father would have sided with Arl Eamon and endanger his regency

[SeanMurphy2]

After you complete three mid game locations. There could be a random encounter with Fergus marching back to Highever with a small force.You then help him retake Highever through a series of quests.



It could shift the focus back on the political situation. And let you become familiar with the culture of Ferelden Nobility in the mid game rather than just Elves, Dwarves, Mages and Demons.



It might be doable in a DLC module. But Howe is in Denerim so would need to have a henchman in Highever.

[SpideyKnight]

The OP was very well written, not exactly the best constructed argument, but definetely servicable. The big point you are missing however is that, to Alistar, Loghain murdered the only father he has ever known. The decision you face at the Landsmeet is Alistair murdering Anora's father, since her father murdered what alistar considered his father. Alistair's hysterics, while not entirely forgivable, can be understood given the situation he was put in by Loghain.



Good deeds can get overshadowed by unscrupulous ones quite easily, and Loghains past actions do not account for his completely ridiculous actions over the course of the game. The "Hero of River Dane" doesn't get to sentence a King and thousands of men and women, including all but the entirety of the Gray Warden forces to death, sell an entire species into slavery, imprison the Queen, make slanderous and knowingly false accusations about the only other Teyrn, sentence his entire family to death, collude with a murderous and deceitful Arl, poison another Arl in a bid for his life, and the list goes on for what seems like an eternity. You don't get immunity from justice simply because you are heralded as a hero. His hero stature granted him a swift death, much more than he deserved, his delusions not being an acceptable excuse for his myriad of atrocities.

[ComTrav]

It does seem a little strange that Highever, being mentioned several times even outside the human noble origin, is not on the map.



I really disagree with your assessment of Alistair/Loghain. You're expecting Alistair to overlook his personal suffering at the hands of Loghain in favor of his (presumed) more detached historical knowledge. I might know from reading history that Abraham Lincoln was a great man, but if I saw him break into my apartment and steal my things I would not warmly deposed towards Honest Abe. Do you want an "everyone's happy" way out of this dilemma where it's possible to spare Loghain and keep Alistair? I think I would feel cheated if there was. It was a little disappointing to be able to convince Zathrian to go peacefully, or the fact that restoring the Circle of Magi seemed so cost-free.