Think about the bigger picture, because of the King's penchant for coming up with strategies that General Custer wouldn't touch, that epically small force was doomed to begin with. How many lives did Loghain save by ordering a retreat? Was it really a betrayal?
And Alistair is all butthurt over one death? Cause his fantasy version of Qui-Gon Jinn got poleaxed? Not much of a comparison here, how do you think the family members of that entire flank would feel if they learned everyone died a needless death at Ostagar.
And Loghain was theoretically right by stating we killed the King. Indirectly, we had a huge part to play. For one, we trumped up his weird fascination with the Grey Wardens, kowtowing to his little boy wishes of playing grown up soldier on the battlefield. So yeah, our perversion with thinking we're elite soldiers of Fereldin just because we can sense darkspawn that are about to wafflestomp us in some awful pitched battle that a militarily retarded pretty boy king came up with is pretty much useless.
Im sure the battle wouldn't have changed, prolly didnt put the scene in where Duncan says "Ho-ho! I sense Darkspawn in the treelines! Best prepare a totally different way now that you know that! Gadzooks!".
I'm sure the rank and file soldiers couldnt see the bazillion torches and angry screaming monsters 50 feet in front of them.
Literary Criticism in Regards to Flopped Plot Opportunities and the Human Noble Origin
Débuté par
SLPr0
, nov. 22 2009 12:17
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#77
Posté 23 novembre 2009 - 06:46
newcomplex
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That was an excellent post OP, and as I game designer myself (aspiring I guess, still in college, though I have made a couple indie stuff), I definitely, especially during my own playthrough, see the validity in it.
But I think Bioware did this knowing full well that they were missing plot opportunities. Whenever these days, a developer makes a choice in a choice driven RPG such as this, to do something to drive a linear plot rather then adhere to what you exactly wanted as a resolution, their are two possible outcomes. Gaming, as a genre, as never achieved quite the same artistic poignance as a books or movies, simply because you can choose your ending. As a player, I think the bioware basically forces you into these plot choke points, so you can experience some form, in lack of a better word, catharsis. Option one is you look past the limitations of the game design in this respect, and admire the tragedy. The fact that by giving this man redemption, you betray your most valued friend, to death or a life of shame and dishonor. Perhaps, because unlike a traditional player, this is driven by your choice, the catharsis is that much more powerful. Their are certainly players who have felt this way.
http://social.biowar...47/index/202678
On the other hand, player choice can also dilute the overall experience. Because it is a game based around your choices, you begin to wonder why can't you have it your way. I mean, after all, it is a game. Because, unlike a play or movie, the loss of alistair is a double edge in terms of gameplay, and player interaction. It goes beyond a empathic bond, where you are empathizing, with a character, to an actual loss of a gameplay option. The frustration can completely overrides the actual dilemma and the potential for a poignant and powerful ending.
If your one of the those people who experience option A, then you got the full scope of what of what bioware intended. If your one of those people who experience option B, then the ending is rather disappointing. The goal should be to ensure more people experience option A, which I suspect could be done with lessened actual gameplay losses, and a more smooth intergration (its heavily hinted throughout the game that Alistair is obsessed with killing loghain for example, rather then a somewhat random leave.
But I think Bioware did this knowing full well that they were missing plot opportunities. Whenever these days, a developer makes a choice in a choice driven RPG such as this, to do something to drive a linear plot rather then adhere to what you exactly wanted as a resolution, their are two possible outcomes. Gaming, as a genre, as never achieved quite the same artistic poignance as a books or movies, simply because you can choose your ending. As a player, I think the bioware basically forces you into these plot choke points, so you can experience some form, in lack of a better word, catharsis. Option one is you look past the limitations of the game design in this respect, and admire the tragedy. The fact that by giving this man redemption, you betray your most valued friend, to death or a life of shame and dishonor. Perhaps, because unlike a traditional player, this is driven by your choice, the catharsis is that much more powerful. Their are certainly players who have felt this way.
http://social.biowar...47/index/202678
On the other hand, player choice can also dilute the overall experience. Because it is a game based around your choices, you begin to wonder why can't you have it your way. I mean, after all, it is a game. Because, unlike a play or movie, the loss of alistair is a double edge in terms of gameplay, and player interaction. It goes beyond a empathic bond, where you are empathizing, with a character, to an actual loss of a gameplay option. The frustration can completely overrides the actual dilemma and the potential for a poignant and powerful ending.
If your one of the those people who experience option A, then you got the full scope of what of what bioware intended. If your one of those people who experience option B, then the ending is rather disappointing. The goal should be to ensure more people experience option A, which I suspect could be done with lessened actual gameplay losses, and a more smooth intergration (its heavily hinted throughout the game that Alistair is obsessed with killing loghain for example, rather then a somewhat random leave.
#78
Posté 23 novembre 2009 - 07:32
Sarethus
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SLPr0 wrote...
Sarethus wrote...
SLPr0 wrote...
I'm more saying the Loghain of Ferelden is a great man, he is, quite obviously, given his life history.
I was unable to engineer any responses that allowed Loghain to live and Alistair to remain and my relationship with Alistair was 100%.the options once taking Riordan's offer seriously get pretty limited and as I said boil down to a 1 or 0 choice for me between Anora and Alistair. After taking Riordan's offer seriously, you get four options, to side with Alistair, to side with Anora, to tell Alistair "Grey Wardens take help where they can get it" or "Weren't you two going to marry?", I chose the "Weren't you two going to marry option" and Alistair shot back at me "Its funny how plans seem to change isn't it?"...then I was given basically the option to side with Anora or Alistair, siding with Anora saves Loghain, siding with Alistair condemns him to death. Perhaps I should have chosen the Grey Warden response....but it seemed the more callous of the two non-siding options.
In the cutscene prior to the Landsmeet, I attempted to reason with Ser Cauthrein and with 4 ranks of persuasion and fairly high cunning for a DW Warrior I was unable to sway her. I think my cunning was 26. Maybe it needs to be higher, maybe rogue characters have an easier time of it, I'm not sure. But thats the only persuasion attempt available that I failed in the game.
And yes I'd love "moar" as you put it but this isn't about "moar" this is about what should have been. Its about the use of extremely thin plot devices to simply push the whole "save the world, be the hero" "The Blight" quest campaign, and ignores the literary possibilities in favor of what I considered to be cheap cliched resolutions which did not do the story as much justice as they could have done.
Loghain might have been a great man but he is a great man who "fell". His hatred for Orlais and love for Ferelden nation (if not for it's people) made him great when he was younger and made him fall in the game. Also Howe didn't become Loghain's ally after Ostagar but was rather Loghain's ally before he attacked the Couslands. As far as your points Howe being a toady etc he is all those things but he was one of the few allies Loghain was able to find. If your looking for people to help you betray allies & take over a country don't be surprised that you will mostly find people like Howe.
@bolded: I honestly don't know what to say here. A large part of the forum seems to complain about Alaister being a spineless wimp and yet when you come across the one area that he does make a stand you complain. To put it quite simply there are quite a few things that Alistair might go along with (Killing Isolde to free a child from a demon or Killing the child to spare the world from an ambomination) but there are quite a few things that Alistair simply will not do. Letting Loghain go free is one of them.
Lelianna & Wynn for example both go ballistic if I try to pour blood in a certain object in their presence, no matter how high my approval with them is or if I am giving Lelianna whole gardens of Andraste's flowers.
To be honest I prefer it that way. Knowing that characters are characters and have their own desires rather then automatons that will go with what ever I think right. You can persuade them on a lot of things but not on everything.
@Your Bolded: This is making a huge assumption that the betrayal of House Cousland and the Terhyn of Highever was planned by Loghain even previous to Highevers commitment of troops to the Ostagar offensive. And I find this to be a high assumption indeed. Because I do not believe that Loghain, until the War Council at Ostagar had made any decisions in regards to his quitting the field and leaving Cailan and the Grey Wardens to fall to the Dark Spawn.
The fall of the Tehryin of Highever, to me, is simply the machinations of Arl Howe, taking an opportunity to make a grab for power in the confusion where he could more or less engineer the truth of matters afterwards. You notice in Denerim when you first arrive for the Landsmeet and confront him that he says that he proved your family were "traitors to the King"....how this is established is a little beyond my ability to assume, as he appears, after Ostagar aligned with Loghain, so where is this "King" he exposed your family as traitors to? Surely not Cailan, who greets you at Ostagar and promises justice.
So again I stand behind my assessment that Arl Howe isn't even in the same league as Loghain, Arl Howe did what he did for himself, Loghain did what he did based in his paranoia of Orlais and the Grey Wardens, which he had great reason for, given Maric's disappearrance with them in The Calling, and while his actions were twisted and wrong they were the actions of a man that would sell his very soul for the land he walked on.
I do not believe Loghain had anything to do with the Terhyin of Highever's fall. And I can only look at Arl Howe's presence as an ally of Loghain's based on Howe's own deciet, and even then, Howe is the type of Orlesian boot licker Loghain would have had little use for in the Stolen Throne, the rightful Arl of Amaranthine actually joined the rebellion in the Stolen Throne very early on and was killed and his entire family killed, so Arl Howe was an Orlesian King's appointment to replace him and likely only joined the rebellion as it marched on the gates of Denerim itself.
Loghain's poisoning of Arl Eamon makes sense after the Ostagar betrayal, as it neutralizes a strong opponent of Theiren blood to Loghain's intent after the Ostagar event, that intent being to ensure the nation of Ferelden is ruled and protected in the way he believes it deserves. And at no time does he attempt to usurp the throne, he simply declares himself Regent to Anora's throne.
Loghain, as twisted as he becomes, never stops being the taciturn young man we see in the forest when he first meets Maric, the proud commoner who refused knighthood at the hands of the rightful king, and he did not, in my opinion, have any illusions of placing himself upon the throne of Ferelden. That would, quite simply, so far out of character for Loghain that it would be rather stupid, so I'm glad, at least, that they never intimated such was his intention.
If I remember correctly Cailan himself wondered how Howe thought he could get away with this when you told him and Duncan also stated at the end of the origin that the King would punish Howe for killing his loyal allies. Rat though Howe is, he is not totally stupid. He would not attack the Couslands unless he had some form of assurance that he would not be killed later. The simplest & most likely explanation is that he got this assurance from Loghain.
Same with Uldred & his mages. Remember Uldred headed to the Mages Tower straight after the battle, even beating Wynn there. Now unless Loghain & Uldred settled their alliance over a very quick chat on the road out of Ostragar that means they had to have decided on what to do before the battle.
Ditto with Jowan and Eamon's poisonning. Unless the PC was asleep for weeks after the battle of Ostragar the poisoning had to have happened prior to the Battle to allow the knights to be despatched (so that one could be in Lothering just after the battle.)
The only way the plot works is that Loghain had all these allies in place before the battle. Remember the Couslands were loyal to the King, so was Arl Eamon and would not support Loghain after his abandoning of Cailan. For all you might try to shift the blame on Howe, your forgetting Loghain's character as you described it:
a man that would sell his very soul for the land he walked on.
Loghain would use Howe. While he might despise him as a bootlicker etc, he would use bootlickers as few other people would stand beside him and he would get rid of loyal, noble people if he thought they stood in his way.
Vinditater wrote...
Think about the bigger picture, because of the King's penchant for coming up with strategies that General Custer wouldn't touch, that epically small force was doomed to begin with. How many lives did Loghain save by ordering a retreat? Was it really a betrayal?
How long has it been since you played that section of the game? The battle plan of Ostagar was made by Loghain. It was his plan and it was a good enough plan that even Duncan thought it would work provided the flanking force actually attacked.
Modifié par Sarethus, 23 novembre 2009 - 07:43 .
#79
Posté 23 novembre 2009 - 07:34
Lianaar
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I have been making a lots of thoughts on this.
I came to think that one of the issues is that people see the Blight as a plot. But I don't.
From IG persepctive of course the Blight is the most important thing and the big plot.
But as gamer the plot is: unite Ferelden. That is where you find opposition and where you have to find. The story isn't that the archdemon goes and kills everyone. For me the epilogue was the killing of archdemon and the catharsis came at the Landsmeet. Because that is what I worked for.
But I also realised I addressed the topic wrongly. I should have turned it around and asks you so. With the given target group for the game and given time that they had for making the game and given resources, what is that -you- would have done? To maintain balance between the individual classes and origins? How would you have solved the issue of people wanting table top experience in a PC game? And please don't take this as mocking, because I am actually curious.
I came to think that one of the issues is that people see the Blight as a plot. But I don't.
From IG persepctive of course the Blight is the most important thing and the big plot.
But as gamer the plot is: unite Ferelden. That is where you find opposition and where you have to find. The story isn't that the archdemon goes and kills everyone. For me the epilogue was the killing of archdemon and the catharsis came at the Landsmeet. Because that is what I worked for.
But I also realised I addressed the topic wrongly. I should have turned it around and asks you so. With the given target group for the game and given time that they had for making the game and given resources, what is that -you- would have done? To maintain balance between the individual classes and origins? How would you have solved the issue of people wanting table top experience in a PC game? And please don't take this as mocking, because I am actually curious.
#80
Posté 23 novembre 2009 - 09:01
SLPr0
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Lianaar wrote...
I have been making a lots of thoughts on this.
I came to think that one of the issues is that people see the Blight as a plot. But I don't.
From IG persepctive of course the Blight is the most important thing and the big plot.
But as gamer the plot is: unite Ferelden. That is where you find opposition and where you have to find. The story isn't that the archdemon goes and kills everyone. For me the epilogue was the killing of archdemon and the catharsis came at the Landsmeet. Because that is what I worked for.
But I also realised I addressed the topic wrongly. I should have turned it around and asks you so. With the given target group for the game and given time that they had for making the game and given resources, what is that -you- would have done? To maintain balance between the individual classes and origins? How would you have solved the issue of people wanting table top experience in a PC game? And please don't take this as mocking, because I am actually curious.
I would have approached every origin with the same depth in mind, the political situation in Orzammar is rife with plot opportunities for a dwarf noble or a dwarf commoner alike. As is the Mage origin or Dalish and City Elf origins.
If you picked up every book you saw and read nearly everything in your codex you'd almost get the impression that the legendary history of Tevinter, Orlais, Ferelden, the Prophet Andraste, the Chantry and Thedas itself really got more fleshing out than the origin storylines truly do.
The second son of Endrin Aeducan has no more impact in Orzammar than the son of Bryce Cousland does, and both origins lack a true expansion of their stories even though in the Dwarf origin you can return to your roots, it has no bearing on the overall nearly truly binary storyline that occurs. I suspect the same is true of our nameless Amell mage, or both elven origins.
It is very much like Yahtzee put it in his review, you get these six different origins, then everything gets pushed through the Ostagar bottleneck and the story of origins literally dies there...your race and class mean very little, your back story has no true meaning to the overall plot beyond that bottleneck other than minor references and almost insultingly small resolutions.
To me, each origin itself should have 80 hours of origin specific content tacked on to the 80 hours of Blight content. And that to me is what would have made this game the mother of all games.
I mean sure its asking for a lot but we're talking about a title that took 8 years to reach the market. It took 8 years to create 80 hours of linear content? I find that a bit suspect really. Especially identifying all the places where the story could have gone so much further.
I still have no question DA:O will gain GOTY status, thats pretty much a lock as far as I'm concerned and I'm hardly saying its bad. But, while the Blight and all is important, I believe the Origins for which the game is partially named are important as well and those origins were never given true flesh beyond what I'd really compare to "tutorial levels" in other games.
Thats what the Origins are, they're your individual tutorials to teach you how to play the game and give you an appetizer sized taste of who you are and where you come from, then from there, its all about the Grey Wardens...and, a bit too pat and trite in all honesty.
#81
Posté 23 novembre 2009 - 09:27
Eonassassin
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You are obviously a Loghain fanboy (nothing wrong with that) but imo no matter how much he has done for his country in the past, his act of abandoning his king who was like a son to him for certain death is unforgivable.
Duncan was like a father to Alistair, he even tells you and even if he doesn't he mourns him like the whole game.
If some guy was responsible for my fathers death I wouldn't want him to be worshiped like a hero once he kills an arch demon. Loghain made his choices and justice should be served.
Loghain might have loved his country but he had no love for the people, he was willing to sacrifice anyone and anything.
*I totally agree about the human noble origin though*
Duncan was like a father to Alistair, he even tells you and even if he doesn't he mourns him like the whole game.
If some guy was responsible for my fathers death I wouldn't want him to be worshiped like a hero once he kills an arch demon. Loghain made his choices and justice should be served.
Loghain might have loved his country but he had no love for the people, he was willing to sacrifice anyone and anything.
*I totally agree about the human noble origin though*
Modifié par Eonassassin, 23 novembre 2009 - 09:29 .
#82
Posté 23 novembre 2009 - 10:59
Vicious
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I just want to say that a victory at Ostagar would have been pointless - The Archdemon was still underground at that point. Darkspawn are LEGION. Kill as many as you want there's always more.
So pretty much Cailan put himself at risk... for nothing really. Same for Duncan and all the Wardens sadly, they should have just defended Ostagar if anything - instead of some bizarre plan that involved lighting a fire on top of a REALLY REALLY HIGH tower.
So pretty much Cailan put himself at risk... for nothing really. Same for Duncan and all the Wardens sadly, they should have just defended Ostagar if anything - instead of some bizarre plan that involved lighting a fire on top of a REALLY REALLY HIGH tower.
Modifié par Vicious, 23 novembre 2009 - 11:00 .
#83
Posté 23 novembre 2009 - 11:11
SeanMurphy2
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SLPr0 wrote...
It is very much like Yahtzee put it in his review, you get these six different origins, then everything gets pushed through the Ostagar bottleneck and the story of origins literally dies there...your race and class mean very little, your back story has no true meaning to the overall plot beyond that bottleneck other than minor references and almost insultingly small resolutions.
To me, each origin itself should have 80 hours of origin specific content tacked on to the 80 hours of Blight content. And that to me is what would have made this game the mother of all games.
I mean sure its asking for a lot but we're talking about a title that took 8 years to reach the market. It took 8 years to create 80 hours of linear content? I find that a bit suspect really. Especially identifying all the places where the story could have gone so much further.
I don't think that is feasible. It is hard enough to make an 80 hour game without creating and testing large variations in the main storyline for each origin.
There is an opportunity to improve things in the sequel. BG2 was a big step forward. ME2 supposedly improves on a lot of the weaknesses in the first game.
#84
Posté 23 novembre 2009 - 11:18
Shady314
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[quote]Vicious wrote...
I just want to say that a victory at Ostagar would have been pointless - [./quote]
????? Uh say what ?????
[quote]The Archdemon was still underground at that point. Darkspawn are LEGION. Kill as many as you want there's always more.[/quote]
Their numbers are not infinite. Pushing them back at Ostagar would have been a good thing and slowed the Horde greatly. Or you think they should have pulled back and let the Darkspawn march across Ferelden destroying everything, while everyone sists twiddling their thumbs until an Archdemon appeared?
[quote]So pretty much Cailan put himself at risk... for nothing really. Same for Duncan and all the Wardens sadly, they should have just defended Ostagar if anything - instead of some bizarre plan that involved lighting a fire on top of a REALLY REALLY HIGH tower.[/quote]
They WERE defending Ostagar. Defending does not always mean sitting behind a wall and expecting that to keep the darkspawn out. They had siege equipment. They knocked one of the towers down remember? They had to engage the Darkpsawn on the field or retreat.
There is nothing "bizarre" about a nighttime flanking maneuver. Nor is the need for a signal high enough and bright enough for a force a great distance away to see in the dark.
I just want to say that a victory at Ostagar would have been pointless - [./quote]
????? Uh say what ?????
[quote]The Archdemon was still underground at that point. Darkspawn are LEGION. Kill as many as you want there's always more.[/quote]
Their numbers are not infinite. Pushing them back at Ostagar would have been a good thing and slowed the Horde greatly. Or you think they should have pulled back and let the Darkspawn march across Ferelden destroying everything, while everyone sists twiddling their thumbs until an Archdemon appeared?
[quote]So pretty much Cailan put himself at risk... for nothing really. Same for Duncan and all the Wardens sadly, they should have just defended Ostagar if anything - instead of some bizarre plan that involved lighting a fire on top of a REALLY REALLY HIGH tower.[/quote]
They WERE defending Ostagar. Defending does not always mean sitting behind a wall and expecting that to keep the darkspawn out. They had siege equipment. They knocked one of the towers down remember? They had to engage the Darkpsawn on the field or retreat.
There is nothing "bizarre" about a nighttime flanking maneuver. Nor is the need for a signal high enough and bright enough for a force a great distance away to see in the dark.
#85
Posté 23 novembre 2009 - 11:39
Lianaar
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SLPr0 wrote...
To me, each origin itself should have 80 hours of origin specific content tacked on to the 80 hours of Blight content. And that to me is what would have made this game the mother of all games.
I believe I understand the problem now. I must admit I found tonnes of references to my background, though I am rather sensitive to the subtle things, so I pick easily on them.
You say, that the game would be so much better were the origin stories further developed. I agree. It would be much better. But it would also be double the game it is, you surely understand that. You ask for a separate game for each origine that contains fully different paths. But the game is dragon age with the taste of origins. The origine does have an effect, but the game is not about the origins. The game is about uniting Ferelden in a time when such is needed and when politics still rule over the common interest.
Yes, they spent 7 years (I think) with the game. But I don't think all 7 went into the game itself. They created a new game (new franchise) which will serve as home for many stories to come, be it in PnP, in PC games or in novels. It is way faster to write a story in an already existing environment, then to write up the environment for the story. ALl that lore you read, someone had to do that too, right? It was time consuming.
A lots of thoughts went into the npcs, the companions. They are very flashed out. For me they seemed to be more flashed out then the game world itself. I personally love that as -my- focus was always on the companions and the people in the story.
There are quite a lot of endings, depending on what you do. Claiming you don't effect the outcome is not correct. That also means that you yourself can ensure that your origine affects the outcome. Pick the choices which are alined to your origine. If you are Dalish, you can hate humans. In almost every communication there is a line that makes that possible. Alas every single conversation reflects on your origin if you are a dalish elf. People in the camp of the dalish recognised me just fine. They knew who I am and knew the people from my other camp. I loved how it was tossed in my face in Landsmeet that I am but an elf. I loved how the Alienage responded to me being an elf. Even in the dwarven parts I got references on it, dwarves asking me why on earth I am interested in human's problems when I am not even one of them.
Partway I agree: it could have been deeper, it could have been a whole storyline for each origin, and I would have loved it. However there are realities, such as money, labor, pressing times and so on. Would I have loved to see more npc interaction instead of the mage quests? Yes, I would have. But I bet there are people in the target group that would have been pissed to see more npc interaction instead of the combat.
You say you are a game developer, then you surely learned marketing too, as those two can not work without each other. If the target group is too big, and general, you never will be able to meet the needs and wants of everyone in the group. You must put in things that are favored by many and catch different people with different hooks.
Maybe if there is high enough demand, then add ons for the origine stories, that include parts you hope for will be released. It is not impossible. Maybe it is in the plans. I have little chance knowing. I know however that not many games have given me so many playing hours for that money. And it also is a replayable game due to the varioations of decisions I make. I stick to my origine affecting what decisions I make, and through that my origine has bigger impact then me being a grey warden.
No need to be that displeased.
On the other hand I don't think people should be telling you not to like Loghain. Wether you believe him to be justifyable or not, is only for you to decide. He was a hero that did a lot for the land. He does deserve admiration for deeds he did. And he deserves the hate from another aspect.
That is the beauty of the game. It allows perspectives and different views. It allows you to forgive him and like him, and it allows you to hate him and kill him. And allows both views to be perfectly legitimate and valid. Should a character in the game do something that is against your reading of his or her personality, then it means that likely you misjudged him or her. Do not forget, depending on your actions you will see different sides of him.
Like I didn't take Sten with me to the Alistair-Goldana meeting and accordingly there was a side of Sten my character never familiarised herself. I did not take Shale to the Anvil, so I never learned tidbits of its life. My different alteregos see people in the game differently. THAT is the freedom the game offers.
#86
Posté 23 novembre 2009 - 11:41
Shady314
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It was 5 years people. 5 years. I guess every tale grows in the telling.
#87
Posté 23 novembre 2009 - 12:07
Elvhen Veluthil
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I haven't play the human noble origin, but there are a couple of things I didn't like or understood in the story:
1. Duncan killing that guy that refused to became a Grey Warden. What was that for? If I had the choice, I'd fight Duncan to save him. Not that I liked that guy much, but I didn't like what Duncan did either.
2. Longhain leaving the king like that. The king and Duncan dying like that. I think something more epic-like could be done to tell this events. The player should had a chance to try and rescue em.
3. At some point I was thinking that Longhain was doing what was doing because he was either possessed or for some external reason he was forced to do all those things. His hate about Orlais involvement wasn't clear that was the reason why he was doing all this. In any case I thought there was a deeper reason for his doing.
4. Alistair killing Longhain. What the hell was that? Didn't saw so much hate from anyone else in the game. I can't just kill people like that. Alistair was out of my team and I doubt I'll have him again in my team at all if I re-play the game.
5. The Archdemon. Haven't seen a more uninterested villain for a long time now. Generally speaking the story was quite straightforward with no major surprises, at least the way I played it, playing the mage origin as an elf.
I did enjoy the game, can't say that I didn't. I think though that I don't like all this dark fantasy and the realism in the choices I had to make. I like better the good-neutral-evil alignment system, probably because I mainly play as chaotic good and i want the game to recognize that fact.
1. Duncan killing that guy that refused to became a Grey Warden. What was that for? If I had the choice, I'd fight Duncan to save him. Not that I liked that guy much, but I didn't like what Duncan did either.
2. Longhain leaving the king like that. The king and Duncan dying like that. I think something more epic-like could be done to tell this events. The player should had a chance to try and rescue em.
3. At some point I was thinking that Longhain was doing what was doing because he was either possessed or for some external reason he was forced to do all those things. His hate about Orlais involvement wasn't clear that was the reason why he was doing all this. In any case I thought there was a deeper reason for his doing.
4. Alistair killing Longhain. What the hell was that? Didn't saw so much hate from anyone else in the game. I can't just kill people like that. Alistair was out of my team and I doubt I'll have him again in my team at all if I re-play the game.
5. The Archdemon. Haven't seen a more uninterested villain for a long time now. Generally speaking the story was quite straightforward with no major surprises, at least the way I played it, playing the mage origin as an elf.
I did enjoy the game, can't say that I didn't. I think though that I don't like all this dark fantasy and the realism in the choices I had to make. I like better the good-neutral-evil alignment system, probably because I mainly play as chaotic good and i want the game to recognize that fact.
#88
Posté 23 novembre 2009 - 12:09
themanynamed
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I found your post very interesting. I agree on a lot of points. The first is that the human noble background could have done with a little more elaboration and impact on the game. Still, that can be said of all the backgrounds. It was so great to have a race/class unique background at the beginning and I was really hoping to see how it developed in the game. I was disappointed that all of the backgrounds remained virtually unmentioned later on. A few paltry dialogue options doesn't really do the origins justice.
As for Loghain... I found him a very interesting character. I also thought that apart from his retreat at Ostagar, his dirty deeds were hopelessly cliched and made little sense. Most of what he did gave little political advantage and were obviously prone to backfiring. A man of his political experience should have known this. If anything these ill deeds were clumsy attempts to rub the player's nose into the idea he's a blackhearted villain. This was done, I suspect, so that players wouldn't complain about the lack of options. If players were left with the retreat at Ostagar being Loghain's only offense, his villainhood would be debatable. With that in question players would ask why they *had* to mount a campaign against him. Why not see his rule as an unpleasant necessity? At any rate, I thought it sad that they didn't leave it in shades of grey. It would have suited the game far better. It would also have been possible with only minor tinkering.
MN.
As for Loghain... I found him a very interesting character. I also thought that apart from his retreat at Ostagar, his dirty deeds were hopelessly cliched and made little sense. Most of what he did gave little political advantage and were obviously prone to backfiring. A man of his political experience should have known this. If anything these ill deeds were clumsy attempts to rub the player's nose into the idea he's a blackhearted villain. This was done, I suspect, so that players wouldn't complain about the lack of options. If players were left with the retreat at Ostagar being Loghain's only offense, his villainhood would be debatable. With that in question players would ask why they *had* to mount a campaign against him. Why not see his rule as an unpleasant necessity? At any rate, I thought it sad that they didn't leave it in shades of grey. It would have suited the game far better. It would also have been possible with only minor tinkering.
MN.
#89
Posté 23 novembre 2009 - 12:14
hawat333
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Just to add something that has such sophisticated logic:
Enchantment!
Enchantment!
#90
Posté 23 novembre 2009 - 12:33
SeanMurphy2
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I wonder if Loghain was initially intended to be presented as a greyer character. But later on was written as a more typical villain.
He does so many horrible and destructive things in the mid game. And he is very distant for most of the game.
He does so many horrible and destructive things in the mid game. And he is very distant for most of the game.
Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 23 novembre 2009 - 12:37 .
#92
Posté 23 novembre 2009 - 01:11
dannythefool
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I agree on the human noble resolution being poor. Fergus just pops out of nowhere like there's an invisible broodmother in the room, after what could be years of the PC thinking he or she is the rightful teyrn of Highever.
About Loghain, I initially saw him much greyer than after I finished my first playthrough. When you talk to him in camp, he sounds reasonable ('...and a very young man.' part of his dialogue fits very well). Later you learn that he sorta kinda betrayed the king and the grey wardens, but it could have been that he just wanted to save as much of the army as possible. Then you eventually learn that he sends an assassin out to get you, and that he had a blood mage poison Arl Eamon (in either order). I can forgive him the assassin, my PCs kill plenty of people in this game too and not all of them out of necessity. But contracting a blood mage, of whom he must at least have known that he was an apostate, pretty much seals it. After that, his crimes only become worse. If you play a human noble you know about Howe earlier, but everyone will eventually learn he's Loghain's right hand now and loyalty to him as 'served him well'. There's also a battle somewhere where Loghain's troops fight some Bann's troops in said Bann's lands. Later you can even incriminate him in a slave trade agreement and he just brushes the whole thing aside with something along the lines of 'couldn't hold the alienage anyway'. Many of these things he does late in the game are no longer grey.
About Loghain, I initially saw him much greyer than after I finished my first playthrough. When you talk to him in camp, he sounds reasonable ('...and a very young man.' part of his dialogue fits very well). Later you learn that he sorta kinda betrayed the king and the grey wardens, but it could have been that he just wanted to save as much of the army as possible. Then you eventually learn that he sends an assassin out to get you, and that he had a blood mage poison Arl Eamon (in either order). I can forgive him the assassin, my PCs kill plenty of people in this game too and not all of them out of necessity. But contracting a blood mage, of whom he must at least have known that he was an apostate, pretty much seals it. After that, his crimes only become worse. If you play a human noble you know about Howe earlier, but everyone will eventually learn he's Loghain's right hand now and loyalty to him as 'served him well'. There's also a battle somewhere where Loghain's troops fight some Bann's troops in said Bann's lands. Later you can even incriminate him in a slave trade agreement and he just brushes the whole thing aside with something along the lines of 'couldn't hold the alienage anyway'. Many of these things he does late in the game are no longer grey.
#93
Posté 23 novembre 2009 - 01:30
Lianaar
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I personally believe that Loghain is brilliantly written. The best character in the whole story. He is so valid and within his own world he is perfectly right.
He is a hero. He sacrificed so many things. He gave his blood, his heart to the freedom of his country. He saved his land. HIS Ferelden. And Ferelden was thankful, raised his rank and proved that good deeds indeed gain their reward. And Ferelden is in trouble again. He already proved himself once, he already showed he can do it. And he is sure he can do it again. He must do it. But the stupid kid of a king just doesn't let him do what needs to be done. He tries to reason with him. They fight day by day. He could possibly convince him that the Orlesian Grey Warden's aren't necessary, but then here are Duncen and his people! And the grey wardens make the king allow the Orlesians to come! It is their fault he is -forced- to dispose of the king. He doesn't want to kill him. He is Maric's son and he knew him since he was born. Cailen and his daughter grew up togehter, they loved each other. He has been holding his ruling hand in the passing years. And suddenly that ungreatful idealistic kid just wants to throw his country into the hands of the Orlesiains and the grey wardens are the tool for the new enslavement of Ferelden! He must stop that. Of course he tries to reason the king out of it. To the last moment he begs the king not to stand at the side of the grey wardens. But he doesn't listen. He says: it'll be a glorious day, and Loghain must decide. He answers: It'll be a glorious day... for all of us.
So then, he goes away. His men wonder, but he has done what he had to. For Ferelden. It was a must. Who can lead now the country? Alas, he was Maric's friend, his daughter is the queen. And they can save this country once again. Eamon would oppose it. He can not allow Eamon do that. He would support the grey wardens and with the blight he can not allow that. The blight must be stopped from Ferelden's power. So Eamon must go. Not his wife and kid. The line of Eamon would not be gone. Just Eamon. After all, he would support a bastard who IS a grey warden too. That can not happen.
But the grey wardens, they don't accept what must be accepted. He doesn't have the troups to fight the surviving ones and they just don't allow him to do what must be done. And there is no chance for delay. They don't see reason, nor do the terynns. Ferelden can not indulge in civil war, or the blight will take it. Can the grey wardens not see it? It is their duty to stop the blight, so why don't they allow Loghain to do it? He has proven himself and he has sacrificed so much. If Alitair and the other grey warden are gone.... then the civil war won't happen. 2 people as opposed to the free nation of Ferelden! Two people... they die, yes, but they were the very reason the problem arose, if they would only see sense. So yes, an assassin, just this once. Just this once, for the greater good of Ferelden. As Ferelden must survive.
And the grey wardens still live, they press on and make it harder and harder to fight. The civil war is not avoidable. Loghain is getting to panic. His castle of ideiologies needs support. It is already a self-sustaining system. He needs to do more things, in order to prove to himself that he did it for the right reasons. Elves would die anyway, and Ferelden needs money to stop the civil war and the blight. If they die anyway, in their death, they serve Ferelden. They get sold into slavery. War means sacrifice. War is not pretty. And he has a war to win to save Ferelden. All in Ferelden have the duty to sacrifice for the nation and its freedom. Everyone.
And there you go, the Landsmeet comes. He shrugs off the charges easily, because he believes to be in the right and sees you as a threat to the most holy value he holds. I do think he is the best written character in the whole game. Of course it didn't stop me from killing him
He is a hero. He sacrificed so many things. He gave his blood, his heart to the freedom of his country. He saved his land. HIS Ferelden. And Ferelden was thankful, raised his rank and proved that good deeds indeed gain their reward. And Ferelden is in trouble again. He already proved himself once, he already showed he can do it. And he is sure he can do it again. He must do it. But the stupid kid of a king just doesn't let him do what needs to be done. He tries to reason with him. They fight day by day. He could possibly convince him that the Orlesian Grey Warden's aren't necessary, but then here are Duncen and his people! And the grey wardens make the king allow the Orlesians to come! It is their fault he is -forced- to dispose of the king. He doesn't want to kill him. He is Maric's son and he knew him since he was born. Cailen and his daughter grew up togehter, they loved each other. He has been holding his ruling hand in the passing years. And suddenly that ungreatful idealistic kid just wants to throw his country into the hands of the Orlesiains and the grey wardens are the tool for the new enslavement of Ferelden! He must stop that. Of course he tries to reason the king out of it. To the last moment he begs the king not to stand at the side of the grey wardens. But he doesn't listen. He says: it'll be a glorious day, and Loghain must decide. He answers: It'll be a glorious day... for all of us.
So then, he goes away. His men wonder, but he has done what he had to. For Ferelden. It was a must. Who can lead now the country? Alas, he was Maric's friend, his daughter is the queen. And they can save this country once again. Eamon would oppose it. He can not allow Eamon do that. He would support the grey wardens and with the blight he can not allow that. The blight must be stopped from Ferelden's power. So Eamon must go. Not his wife and kid. The line of Eamon would not be gone. Just Eamon. After all, he would support a bastard who IS a grey warden too. That can not happen.
But the grey wardens, they don't accept what must be accepted. He doesn't have the troups to fight the surviving ones and they just don't allow him to do what must be done. And there is no chance for delay. They don't see reason, nor do the terynns. Ferelden can not indulge in civil war, or the blight will take it. Can the grey wardens not see it? It is their duty to stop the blight, so why don't they allow Loghain to do it? He has proven himself and he has sacrificed so much. If Alitair and the other grey warden are gone.... then the civil war won't happen. 2 people as opposed to the free nation of Ferelden! Two people... they die, yes, but they were the very reason the problem arose, if they would only see sense. So yes, an assassin, just this once. Just this once, for the greater good of Ferelden. As Ferelden must survive.
And the grey wardens still live, they press on and make it harder and harder to fight. The civil war is not avoidable. Loghain is getting to panic. His castle of ideiologies needs support. It is already a self-sustaining system. He needs to do more things, in order to prove to himself that he did it for the right reasons. Elves would die anyway, and Ferelden needs money to stop the civil war and the blight. If they die anyway, in their death, they serve Ferelden. They get sold into slavery. War means sacrifice. War is not pretty. And he has a war to win to save Ferelden. All in Ferelden have the duty to sacrifice for the nation and its freedom. Everyone.
And there you go, the Landsmeet comes. He shrugs off the charges easily, because he believes to be in the right and sees you as a threat to the most holy value he holds. I do think he is the best written character in the whole game. Of course it didn't stop me from killing him
Modifié par Lianaar, 23 novembre 2009 - 01:33 .
#94
Posté 23 novembre 2009 - 01:59
SeanMurphy2
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That is an interesting character study of Loghain.
But I am not sure how regularly it was conveyed during the game. The game was a bit sparse in conveying his history and understanding his current viewpoint.
I think it would be good if Cauthrien had an argument with him after Ostager and ended up joining your party. You could then see his actions through Cauthriens eyes. She admires him and understands his thinking. And can give a different more positive intepretation of each of his mid game schemes. She also knows his history as a hero and may still be biased by her childhood hero worship.
But I am not sure how regularly it was conveyed during the game. The game was a bit sparse in conveying his history and understanding his current viewpoint.
I think it would be good if Cauthrien had an argument with him after Ostager and ended up joining your party. You could then see his actions through Cauthriens eyes. She admires him and understands his thinking. And can give a different more positive intepretation of each of his mid game schemes. She also knows his history as a hero and may still be biased by her childhood hero worship.
Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 23 novembre 2009 - 02:17 .
#95
Guest_anaea123_*
Posté 23 novembre 2009 - 02:15
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Alistair didn't read the DA novels and so doesn't know that Loghain was actually a good guy once and could be again.
Now apply that to 99% of the people who play DAO.
FWIW, I do think that Alistair would have heard of Loghain's heroics in the liberation of Ferelden. Everyone else has, so why not the bastard son of one of the guys who was instrumental in that victory?
I also agree that Alistair has a somewhat naive vision of the Gray Wardens. You can ask Riordan about Duncan, and he basically says that Duncan was a hardass but had a big soft spot for his recruits. That made me wonder how much of the truth of the Gray Wardens Duncan shielded Alistair from - perhaps Duncan himself liked being seen as heroic and noble, and didn't want to disabuse Alistair of those ideas.
That's all pure speculation of course, but it always struck me as odd that Alistair had enough time to get all buddy buddy with the Wardens and yet somehow was never told about why they were necessary to deal with the archdemon in the first place.
#96
Posté 23 novembre 2009 - 02:43
SLPr0
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anaea123 wrote...
Alistair didn't read the DA novels and so doesn't know that Loghain was actually a good guy once and could be again.
Now apply that to 99% of the people who play DAO.
FWIW, I do think that Alistair would have heard of Loghain's heroics in the liberation of Ferelden. Everyone else has, so why not the bastard son of one of the guys who was instrumental in that victory?
I also agree that Alistair has a somewhat naive vision of the Gray Wardens. You can ask Riordan about Duncan, and he basically says that Duncan was a hardass but had a big soft spot for his recruits. That made me wonder how much of the truth of the Gray Wardens Duncan shielded Alistair from - perhaps Duncan himself liked being seen as heroic and noble, and didn't want to disabuse Alistair of those ideas.
That's all pure speculation of course, but it always struck me as odd that Alistair had enough time to get all buddy buddy with the Wardens and yet somehow was never told about why they were necessary to deal with the archdemon in the first place.
I've another thread that is picking apart that question exactly, and I think I know the answer. But regardless I agree with you entirely, there is simply no way Alistair can be ignorant of Loghain's history, no one in Ferelden is ignorant of it.
#97
Posté 23 novembre 2009 - 03:05
Wynne
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Holy F***, I've been out-lengthed on post! THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN! *tries to pick her jaw up off the floor and can't*
On the Alistair thing... yeah. Just, yeah. Word all over the place. While I felt that it was emotionally impacting and understood that Loghain was being sort of dropped into the Alistair slot, I was playing a very silver-tongued rogue with maxed coercion. I can talk a templar out of his underpants, I can talk the crown off a queen's head, I can convince a walking corpse to hug me instead of kill me... but I can't talk Alistair into letting me do EXACTLY WHAT HIS HERO DUNCAN WOULD HAVE DONE. Duncan, who he's been talking about THE ENTIRE GAME.
Despite the emotional impact and practical implications and the fact that I can't really see Loghain and Alistair in the same party, this was an absolute Wall Banger for me. More so because it is never remedied at the end of the game and there is no option to say you'll search for him like you get when you're playing a male and romancing Morrigan.
I can see Alistair making such a mistake, that is not impossible for me. But I can not see him never coming down from it. And I CERTAINLY couldn't see my dwarf commoner not hunting him down, whether to kiss him or kill him or drag him on his finely toned human buttocks back to Weisshaupt or wherever.
As to Loghain, he wasn't power-mad. He had lost Rowan, lost everything, and Maric's son was destroying everything he and Maric and Rowan had built when they took back Ferelden. Maric's beloved was perhaps the first casualty of Loghain's blind loyalty to his country. She was the first, but clearly not the last. That is what happened to Loghain. With nothing else left to live for, Ferelden was EVERYTHING. All that Loghain had. And he grew paranoid, possessive, obsessive, and fearful. In a world of real political intrigue, that is not hard to do. Think of The Calling, think of Orlesians and their destructive plots. Loghain did. And he believed the Grey Wardens to be an obsolete order which had banded together with the Orlesians to seize power.
Loghain was not power-mad. He was mad with fear, of losing Ferelden to a threat he had to live with his entire life. From his perspective, it was perfectly sane, to fight such a threat to his beloved nation--you, the power-mad Grey Wardens, desperately fumbling for power; he wasn't going to get sucked into your trap like Cailan did. Utterly, utterly wrong beyond all belief? Yes. But that was what he believed.
Loghain sees himself as the hero. The one doing everything right. Therein lies the tragedy.
YES. YES. YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES. I could not agree more. I mostly didn't give a flying crap about the side quests and random encounters. I deeply wish all of that had been Origin-related stuff entirely. Or at least, dwarf quests, mage quests, noble quests (for both human and dwarf, though easier and friendlier depending on whether you're in Denerim or Orzammar) and elf quests. The kind of thing that you'd only really care about or understand if it was someone you knew.
Most of the Mages Collective, Blackstone Irregulars, and such-like sidequests felt were wasted writing talent that could've been spent on more stuff that was cool and added life and replayability to the game. Although, I have to admit, I liked the Orzammar sidequests surprisingly much. But it would have all been so much more fun if there were fewer random encounters and small location quests not relevant to the main quest, and more quests devoted to the actual stability of Ferelden and its armies. More political intrigue, more fighting for the rights of elves, more depth in the politics of Orzammar and what you can do--like choosing someone other than Harrowmont (who is traditional and old enough to keel over any second) or Bhelen (who is Bhelen.) I mean, you get a crown from Caridin and you get to make the choice... why not make it more than just either/or? Why not shake things up? And if you did that, you should be able to give advice on whom to execute and such.
Yeah, unfortunately, from what I've seen of others' playthroughs, that is mostly the case; you have no house and don't seem able to get it back for yourself. You are recognized by almost everyone as being the person who got exiled, but it's still the same Harrowmont/Bhelen choice apparently. Though if you're a male character there are actions that can come back to haunt you from earlier, I as a female think I will find it a bit disappointing. I would've liked to be able to get more involved. While being casteless had some effect, it wasn't quite as much as I would've hoped. A little too arbitrary in the way it played out, I think, although I can't be sure until I play again and choose other options in the beginning.
I really really really wish there had been a lot of Origin-specific quests. I'm hoping this is somehow, someday remedied, or at least done in DA2. I mean, I play sidequests, but I always want them to be something truly meaningful. Important. Not just "here's some more random, pointless stuff to do if you want XP." Something emotional, like fighting racism or torture or rescuing an old friend as opposed to handing some lady a letter and having her run off wailing "What did he do to deserve this?" Seeing Jowan pop up again was about a billion times more interesting than killing random bandits in a back alley when the captain of the guards should damn well be able to do it himself. While I enjoyed those fights tactically, if there'd been an actual reason to care it would've been a million times better. I mean, the deep roads were awesome for that; even though they were huge and taxing, it gave you that claustrophobic feel, yet it all felt sort of epic, and the brood mother and the legion of the dead were all pretty amazing hooks, and the whole time you're thinking "this is where I'm going to end up when I am 50 or so. Where I'll be spending my last nights as I succumb to the taint and die horribly alone." Incredibly impacting. (Though I have to ask, why the hell does Caridin not drop the Anvil of the Void into the lava, though? Why does my mage hit it with a hammer to destroy it in a lame way when he could destroy it himself awesomely? Does not compute.)
Flopped plot opportunities, indeed. I don't want to sound like they didn't hit the mark on a LOT of things, because they did. But these weak, formulaic sidequests detract from the experience when all of that time and effort could've been spent on more awesome.
Obviously, though, there is still a ton of awesome in the game--otherwise, we wouldn't be writing posts this long.
Here's hoping this gets read and that it encourages the devs to focus on the Origins more for the sequel.
On the Alistair thing... yeah. Just, yeah. Word all over the place. While I felt that it was emotionally impacting and understood that Loghain was being sort of dropped into the Alistair slot, I was playing a very silver-tongued rogue with maxed coercion. I can talk a templar out of his underpants, I can talk the crown off a queen's head, I can convince a walking corpse to hug me instead of kill me... but I can't talk Alistair into letting me do EXACTLY WHAT HIS HERO DUNCAN WOULD HAVE DONE. Duncan, who he's been talking about THE ENTIRE GAME.
Despite the emotional impact and practical implications and the fact that I can't really see Loghain and Alistair in the same party, this was an absolute Wall Banger for me. More so because it is never remedied at the end of the game and there is no option to say you'll search for him like you get when you're playing a male and romancing Morrigan.
I can see Alistair making such a mistake, that is not impossible for me. But I can not see him never coming down from it. And I CERTAINLY couldn't see my dwarf commoner not hunting him down, whether to kiss him or kill him or drag him on his finely toned human buttocks back to Weisshaupt or wherever.
As to Loghain, he wasn't power-mad. He had lost Rowan, lost everything, and Maric's son was destroying everything he and Maric and Rowan had built when they took back Ferelden. Maric's beloved was perhaps the first casualty of Loghain's blind loyalty to his country. She was the first, but clearly not the last. That is what happened to Loghain. With nothing else left to live for, Ferelden was EVERYTHING. All that Loghain had. And he grew paranoid, possessive, obsessive, and fearful. In a world of real political intrigue, that is not hard to do. Think of The Calling, think of Orlesians and their destructive plots. Loghain did. And he believed the Grey Wardens to be an obsolete order which had banded together with the Orlesians to seize power.
Loghain was not power-mad. He was mad with fear, of losing Ferelden to a threat he had to live with his entire life. From his perspective, it was perfectly sane, to fight such a threat to his beloved nation--you, the power-mad Grey Wardens, desperately fumbling for power; he wasn't going to get sucked into your trap like Cailan did. Utterly, utterly wrong beyond all belief? Yes. But that was what he believed.
Loghain sees himself as the hero. The one doing everything right. Therein lies the tragedy.
To be frank, and honest, I'd have traded all the Blackstone Irregulars
content, Mages Collective and Chantry side questing, I'd have traded
Gaxkhang and Asunder and I might have even have traded some of the
companion side quests (but hopfeully not), I'd have traded all the
annoying road interruptions from the persistent dwarf merchant who
"attacked" me far more often than any roving bands of dark spawn or
anything else in the game while map traveling....simply to have seen
the development time that went into these small end side quests that
barely associated themselves with the lore of Ferelden, be focused on
more truly defining and presenting the (I ignore the "Human Noble" part of this sentence) Origin(s)...
YES. YES. YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES. I could not agree more. I mostly didn't give a flying crap about the side quests and random encounters. I deeply wish all of that had been Origin-related stuff entirely. Or at least, dwarf quests, mage quests, noble quests (for both human and dwarf, though easier and friendlier depending on whether you're in Denerim or Orzammar) and elf quests. The kind of thing that you'd only really care about or understand if it was someone you knew.
Most of the Mages Collective, Blackstone Irregulars, and such-like sidequests felt were wasted writing talent that could've been spent on more stuff that was cool and added life and replayability to the game. Although, I have to admit, I liked the Orzammar sidequests surprisingly much. But it would have all been so much more fun if there were fewer random encounters and small location quests not relevant to the main quest, and more quests devoted to the actual stability of Ferelden and its armies. More political intrigue, more fighting for the rights of elves, more depth in the politics of Orzammar and what you can do--like choosing someone other than Harrowmont (who is traditional and old enough to keel over any second) or Bhelen (who is Bhelen.) I mean, you get a crown from Caridin and you get to make the choice... why not make it more than just either/or? Why not shake things up? And if you did that, you should be able to give advice on whom to execute and such.
And while the game continues
to keep me enthralled and willing to play it (I am looking quite forward to my Dwarf Noble play through I am hoping the
resolutions in Orzammar are far more deep and interesting but I have a
sneaking suspicion that they will simply play the plot element of you
having no house as you were exiled and you just get stuck choosing
between Harrowmont and Bhelen as per the regular storyline experienced
by the human noble origin...which makes that part of the game seem both
tantalizing and potentially full of great disappointment as well,
depending on how cheaply it is handled.)
Yeah, unfortunately, from what I've seen of others' playthroughs, that is mostly the case; you have no house and don't seem able to get it back for yourself. You are recognized by almost everyone as being the person who got exiled, but it's still the same Harrowmont/Bhelen choice apparently. Though if you're a male character there are actions that can come back to haunt you from earlier, I as a female think I will find it a bit disappointing. I would've liked to be able to get more involved. While being casteless had some effect, it wasn't quite as much as I would've hoped. A little too arbitrary in the way it played out, I think, although I can't be sure until I play again and choose other options in the beginning.
I really really really wish there had been a lot of Origin-specific quests. I'm hoping this is somehow, someday remedied, or at least done in DA2. I mean, I play sidequests, but I always want them to be something truly meaningful. Important. Not just "here's some more random, pointless stuff to do if you want XP." Something emotional, like fighting racism or torture or rescuing an old friend as opposed to handing some lady a letter and having her run off wailing "What did he do to deserve this?" Seeing Jowan pop up again was about a billion times more interesting than killing random bandits in a back alley when the captain of the guards should damn well be able to do it himself. While I enjoyed those fights tactically, if there'd been an actual reason to care it would've been a million times better. I mean, the deep roads were awesome for that; even though they were huge and taxing, it gave you that claustrophobic feel, yet it all felt sort of epic, and the brood mother and the legion of the dead were all pretty amazing hooks, and the whole time you're thinking "this is where I'm going to end up when I am 50 or so. Where I'll be spending my last nights as I succumb to the taint and die horribly alone." Incredibly impacting. (Though I have to ask, why the hell does Caridin not drop the Anvil of the Void into the lava, though? Why does my mage hit it with a hammer to destroy it in a lame way when he could destroy it himself awesomely? Does not compute.)
Flopped plot opportunities, indeed. I don't want to sound like they didn't hit the mark on a LOT of things, because they did. But these weak, formulaic sidequests detract from the experience when all of that time and effort could've been spent on more awesome.
Obviously, though, there is still a ton of awesome in the game--otherwise, we wouldn't be writing posts this long.
Here's hoping this gets read and that it encourages the devs to focus on the Origins more for the sequel.
Modifié par Wynne, 23 novembre 2009 - 03:29 .
#98
Posté 23 novembre 2009 - 04:57
Ariella
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SLPr0 wrote...
@Your Bolded: This is making a huge assumption that the betrayal of House Cousland and the Terhyn of Highever was planned by Loghain even previous to Highevers commitment of troops to the Ostagar offensive. And I find this to be a high assumption indeed. Because I do not believe that Loghain, until the War Council at Ostagar had made any decisions in regards to his quitting the field and leaving Cailan and the Grey Wardens to fall to the Dark Spawn.
The fall of the Tehryin of Highever, to me, is simply the machinations of Arl Howe, taking an opportunity to make a grab for power in the confusion where he could more or less engineer the truth of matters afterwards. You notice in Denerim when you first arrive for the Landsmeet and confront him that he says that he proved your family were "traitors to the King"....how this is established is a little beyond my ability to assume, as he appears, after Ostagar aligned with Loghain, so where is this "King" he exposed your family as traitors to? Surely not Cailan, who greets you at Ostagar and promises justice.
So again I stand behind my assessment that Arl Howe isn't even in the same league as Loghain, Arl Howe did what he did for himself, Loghain did what he did based in his paranoia of Orlais and the Grey Wardens, which he had great reason for, given Maric's disappearrance with them in The Calling, and while his actions were twisted and wrong they were the actions of a man that would sell his very soul for the land he walked on.
I do not believe Loghain had anything to do with the Terhyin of Highever's fall. And I can only look at Arl Howe's presence as an ally of Loghain's based on Howe's own deciet, and even then, Howe is the type of Orlesian boot licker Loghain would have had little use for in the Stolen Throne, the rightful Arl of Amaranthine actually joined the rebellion in the Stolen Throne very early on and was killed and his entire family killed, so Arl Howe was an Orlesian King's appointment to replace him and likely only joined the rebellion as it marched on the gates of Denerim itself.
Actually, it was Howe's family that was tossed out, and an Orlesian family that replaced his as the Arls of Amaranthine, and it wasn't "very early on", as Queen Moira had been in rebellion for a good portion of her life and that of her son's. It was only, what 6 or so years after her death, that Maric finally dislodged the Orlesians.
And if one takes a look and pays attention to things said in the game, one can see WHY Loghain would kill Bryce Cousland and poison Eamon. Both have connections to Orlias. As you come upon your mother in the noble Origin, she's telling Lady Landra that "Bryce brought me this from Orlias last year..." The Cousland family has been establishing ties with Orlias, and of couse this is not to mention that Eamon MARRIED an Orlesian noblewoman. In Loghain's growning paranoia of Orlias that his only equal in the Landsmeet and probably the most popular Arl both have ties with the enemy.
This is not to mention that Loghain's been in denial that he'd betray Meric since they met Flemeth years ago, so he HAS to deny there's a Blight (as that was also prophecised by Flemeth). And yet to deny the Blight and act as he did, betrayed Maric on so many levels. He betrayed Maric as a Teryn, leaving the South to fall to the dark spawn (as I understand it, the Arls and Banns in his Terynate are direct liegemen of his). He bretrayed Maric personally by allowing Cailin to die, he betrayed the cause he and Maric worked for for years by removing the rightful Theirin blood from the throne and trying to replace it with himself....
It's a nice list of betray compounded by betrayal.
#99
Posté 23 novembre 2009 - 05:16
Ariella
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[quote]Elvhen Veluthil wrote...
I haven't play the human noble origin, but there are a couple of things I didn't like or understood in the story:
1. Duncan killing that guy that refused to became a Grey Warden. What was that for? If I had the choice, I'd fight Duncan to save him. Not that I liked that guy much, but I didn't like what Duncan did either.
[/quote]
Duncan makes it clear if you ask him (the second thoughts line of dialogue) that this is the Point of No Return. Also, Jory drew a weapon first. He panicked and was about to try and fight his way out of the situation, something that could not happen since the Joining HAD to remanin a secret, much as the Harrowing must remain a secret. This isn't a fraternity prank, it's deadly serious business that these orders try nad keep their secrets because the commons would never understand.
[quote]
2. Longhain leaving the king like that. The king and Duncan dying like that. I think something more epic-like could be done to tell this events. The player should had a chance to try and rescue em.
[/quote]
How were you supposed to even know that Loghain hadn't acted until Morrigan tells you? You lighting the beacon and the battle take place in the same amount of time. In that time line all you know is you've just lit the beacon, Loghain should be charging and suddenly you're overwhelmed by darkspawn. I get the feeling it wasn't supposed to be "epic", Duncan and Cailin's deaths were supposed to have a sense of futility to them, especially in the face of Loghain's betrayal.
[quote]
3. At some point I was thinking that Longhain was doing what was doing because he was either possessed or for some external reason he was forced to do all those things. His hate about Orlais involvement wasn't clear that was the reason why he was doing all this. In any case I thought there was a deeper reason for his doing.
[/quote]
Look how he acts over the idea of bringing Orlesian reinforcements. During the emergency Landsmeet he calls to declare himself regent he makes reference to "certain parties" who might take advantage of Fereldan's weakness, and that he was doing everything he could to ensure Fereldan's independance (not safety!) in this time. Both of his major opponents in the Landsmeet had connections to Orlais (Bryce Cousland visted Orlais and Arl Eamon was married to an Orlesian noblewoman)
[quote]
4. Alistair killing Longhain. What the hell was that? Didn't saw so much hate from anyone else in the game. I can't just kill people like that. Alistair was out of my team and I doubt I'll have him again in my team at all if I re-play the game.
[/quote]
Alistair had all the reason in the world to kill Loghain and the law was on his side. Loghain was a traitor and had attempted a coup. Alistair had every right as Prince of the Blood Royal to execute the man, and even more personal reasons to hate him.
[quote]
5. The Archdemon. Haven't seen a more uninterested villain for a long time now. Generally speaking the story was quite straightforward with no major surprises, at least the way I played it, playing the mage origin as an elf.
[/quote]
The archdemon is a force of nature not a being with reasons we're supposed to understand, so looking for "motivation" there is a stretch.
[/quote]
I did enjoy the game, can't say that I didn't. I think though that I don't like all this dark fantasy and the realism in the choices I had to make. I like better the good-neutral-evil alignment system, probably because I mainly play as chaotic good and i want the game to recognize that fact.[/quote]
Sorry, this isn't D&D. Part of the point was not to have such a system. You choices have consequences not just are a bump on some unrealiztic good/evil scale which many people won't agree with anyway.
I haven't play the human noble origin, but there are a couple of things I didn't like or understood in the story:
1. Duncan killing that guy that refused to became a Grey Warden. What was that for? If I had the choice, I'd fight Duncan to save him. Not that I liked that guy much, but I didn't like what Duncan did either.
[/quote]
Duncan makes it clear if you ask him (the second thoughts line of dialogue) that this is the Point of No Return. Also, Jory drew a weapon first. He panicked and was about to try and fight his way out of the situation, something that could not happen since the Joining HAD to remanin a secret, much as the Harrowing must remain a secret. This isn't a fraternity prank, it's deadly serious business that these orders try nad keep their secrets because the commons would never understand.
[quote]
2. Longhain leaving the king like that. The king and Duncan dying like that. I think something more epic-like could be done to tell this events. The player should had a chance to try and rescue em.
[/quote]
How were you supposed to even know that Loghain hadn't acted until Morrigan tells you? You lighting the beacon and the battle take place in the same amount of time. In that time line all you know is you've just lit the beacon, Loghain should be charging and suddenly you're overwhelmed by darkspawn. I get the feeling it wasn't supposed to be "epic", Duncan and Cailin's deaths were supposed to have a sense of futility to them, especially in the face of Loghain's betrayal.
[quote]
3. At some point I was thinking that Longhain was doing what was doing because he was either possessed or for some external reason he was forced to do all those things. His hate about Orlais involvement wasn't clear that was the reason why he was doing all this. In any case I thought there was a deeper reason for his doing.
[/quote]
Look how he acts over the idea of bringing Orlesian reinforcements. During the emergency Landsmeet he calls to declare himself regent he makes reference to "certain parties" who might take advantage of Fereldan's weakness, and that he was doing everything he could to ensure Fereldan's independance (not safety!) in this time. Both of his major opponents in the Landsmeet had connections to Orlais (Bryce Cousland visted Orlais and Arl Eamon was married to an Orlesian noblewoman)
[quote]
4. Alistair killing Longhain. What the hell was that? Didn't saw so much hate from anyone else in the game. I can't just kill people like that. Alistair was out of my team and I doubt I'll have him again in my team at all if I re-play the game.
[/quote]
Alistair had all the reason in the world to kill Loghain and the law was on his side. Loghain was a traitor and had attempted a coup. Alistair had every right as Prince of the Blood Royal to execute the man, and even more personal reasons to hate him.
[quote]
5. The Archdemon. Haven't seen a more uninterested villain for a long time now. Generally speaking the story was quite straightforward with no major surprises, at least the way I played it, playing the mage origin as an elf.
[/quote]
The archdemon is a force of nature not a being with reasons we're supposed to understand, so looking for "motivation" there is a stretch.
[/quote]
I did enjoy the game, can't say that I didn't. I think though that I don't like all this dark fantasy and the realism in the choices I had to make. I like better the good-neutral-evil alignment system, probably because I mainly play as chaotic good and i want the game to recognize that fact.[/quote]
Sorry, this isn't D&D. Part of the point was not to have such a system. You choices have consequences not just are a bump on some unrealiztic good/evil scale which many people won't agree with anyway.
#100
Posté 23 novembre 2009 - 05:47
Findarin
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actually no, if you listen to some of the gossips and conversations in the game, you are not the son of one of the most powerful nobles in the country.
you are the second son of a traitorous noble who was selling secrets to the orlesians and thought to be dead. Howe says himself that your father was betraying ferelden to his orlesian friends. Not that I believe that, but I am certain Lohgain was far to ready to believe it.
you are the second son of a traitorous noble who was selling secrets to the orlesians and thought to be dead. Howe says himself that your father was betraying ferelden to his orlesian friends. Not that I believe that, but I am certain Lohgain was far to ready to believe it.
