147 réponses à ce sujet

[FalloutBoy]

As a game developer you (the OP) should know very well that it would be impractical to add a 20-hour campaign to retake Highever to the end of the game, which would only be relevant to 1 of the 6 origins. Furthermore, it would be kind of hard to lead that campaign at all, depending on what ending you got. Furthermore, with Howe dead and a new regent on the throne, who in their right mind is going hole up inside Highever and defy the crown?

And regarding Ser Cauthrien, she doesn't give her life up for Loghain. Put some points into coercion FFS.

[Hamarabi2006]

Elvhen Veluthil wrote...


I haven't play the human noble origin, but there are a couple of things I didn't like or understood in the story:

1. Duncan killing that guy that refused to became a Grey Warden. What was that for? If I had the choice, I'd fight Duncan to save him. Not that I liked that guy much, but I didn't like what Duncan did either.

If you ask Duncan why he killed Jory, he will say that it is because he had no choice when Jory drew his weapon.

Elvhen Veluthil wrote...

4. Alistair killing Longhain. What the hell was that? Didn't saw so much hate from anyone else in the game. I can't just kill people like that. Alistair was out of my team and I doubt I'll have him again in my team at all if I re-play the game.

Loghain betrayed the king and Duncan and left them and all of the pople in Ostegar to slaughter.  He made assassination attempts on royalty, and was directly connected to the slavery operation in the Alienage, to name a few.  Whatever kind of man he was before the game started, he was no longer.  Loghain ended up being a despicable evil man and had to die if justice was to be served.  

Modifié par Hamarabi2006, 23 novembre 2009 - 06:26 .

[panic686original]

Allistair loved Duncan like a father. his hatred of Loghain made perfect sense.

[red8x]

panic686original wrote...

Allistair loved Duncan like a father. his hatred of Loghain made perfect sense.

Alistair's hatred for Loghain made perfect sense, but the man had no sense of duty or honor. To me his behavior was nothing more than a childish tantrum.  If you don't give in to Alistair and kill Loghain he literally runs away.   I don't care that he abandons my PC but it shocked me that he would abandon Ferelden and ignore the fact that above all things he is a Grey Warden.  His reaction and behavior at that critical moment showed his true colors: his selfish need for revenge trumps having him carry out his duty as Warden in saving Ferelden. 

[Forsakerr]

Findarin wrote...

actually no, if you listen to some of the gossips and conversations in the game, you are not the son of one of the most powerful nobles in the country.

you are the second son of a traitorous noble who was selling secrets to the orlesians and thought to be dead. Howe says himself that your father was betraying ferelden to his orlesian friends. Not that I believe that, but I am certain Lohgain was far to ready to believe it.

Howe lies to your father about his troops beeing "delayed" and you think he would nt lie about your father giving information to Orlesians? During the revolt he had joined the Orlesians  that guy is an opportunist,traitor and what not , i would trust your father ten thousands times more since he revolted against the ursurper than trust Howe 

[Lianaar]

red8x wrote...
his selfish need for revenge trumps having him carry out his duty as Warden in saving Ferelden. 

That's actually a good point about his personality. He is not a perfect warden apparently

[CaisLaochach]

Arl Howe and Loghain - how do we know what the Teyrn of Highever was like? Arl Eamon was anti-Loghain, presumably so was daddy. Whose name I've forgotten.

Loghain's loyalty is to the kingdom, he presumably feels a loyal Howe (loyal to him) is more important than the rightful Teyrn.

I enjoyed the Human Noble origin, however, were I to have any problems with it, it would be that you're almost too famous. By being the son of one of the nation's leading figures, you should be recognised by almost every senior military/administrative figure. Minor nobility might have made more sense.

I've only played two of the origins, human and dalish elf, so far, but I've enjoyed them. They are, at the end of the day, glorified tutorials, and truly, the best glorified tutorials I've ever played.

[Vicious]

There's lots of story of the longstanding rivalry of Amaranthine [Howe] and Highever. I'm surprised Teryn Bryce Cousland ever turned his back on Howe all considering, but he sure paid for it.

[Fishy]

Allistair he's a big Fat BABY and seriously i leave him at the camp now.He pisse me off.
He's a KIDS inside the body of a man .. He's a frigging clown.

and the human noble seem to be the most plausible...

Seriously .. My character was frigging ugly and a dwarf and everyone told me how beautiful i was .

Modifié par Suprez30, 23 novembre 2009 - 10:24 .

[Lord_Saulot]

One of the nobles in Gnawed Noble tavern promised me her bowmen would join me when I take back Highever.



I would love to see that happen so much.



I think overall that the takeaway point from this whole discussion is that for all that is great in the game, its still a first attempt for things like the Origins, and there is room to grow. If Bioware makes a future game using the same "Origin" style of gameplay, they will likely try to further develop the ways that the Origins interplay with the main story. I think that will only be a good thing.

[SLPr0]

FalloutBoy wrote...

As a game developer you (the OP) should know very well that it would be impractical to add a 20-hour campaign to retake Highever to the end of the game, which would only be relevant to 1 of the 6 origins. Furthermore, it would be kind of hard to lead that campaign at all, depending on what ending you got. Furthermore, with Howe dead and a new regent on the throne, who in their right mind is going hole up inside Highever and defy the crown?

And regarding Ser Cauthrien, she doesn't give her life up for Loghain. Put some points into coercion FFS.

I actually wouldn't place this Origin specific content at the end of the game, and I'm also not talking about doing this kind of content preferentially towards one origin. All the origins have great lapses and gaps in their own storylines which are completely overshadowed by the Blight/Grey Warden storyline. So we're more talking around 140 hours worth of extra content that isn't at the end of the game but sprinkled around the main storyline where your actual Origin matters and the content is specifically origin based.

Makes more sense than Blackstone Irregulars/Mages Collective/Chantry errand running, far as I'm concerned, it just requires a bit more development time.

And I believe I stated I had 4 ranks of Coercion and 26 Cunning, which I believed was fairly high Cunning for a DW Warrior, and she still refused me. Now I think this is largely because the Cauthrien AI Logic in regards to the player is formed at the first meeting when Arl Eamon and the player arrive in Denerim to be greeted by Loghain and Cauthrien and Howe, I believe how you present yourself there affects how willing she is to deal with you rationally before you enter the Landsmeet.

Modifié par SLPr0, 24 novembre 2009 - 01:53 .

[Ariella]

Findarin wrote...

actually no, if you listen to some of the gossips and conversations in the game, you are not the son of one of the most powerful nobles in the country.

you are the second son of a traitorous noble who was selling secrets to the orlesians and thought to be dead. Howe says himself that your father was betraying ferelden to his orlesian friends. Not that I believe that, but I am certain Lohgain was far to ready to believe it.

Did listen, and I've got to give it to Loghain that he's got a propaganda machine that would make Goebbel cheer. I mean those gossips also believe the Grey Wardens handed King Cailin to the darkspawn. Of course, the flat Earth society still exists irl so there's no acounting for the collective brains of the masses. And considering there's no mass media and in fact no real media to speak of (let alone a literate populace)...

[SeanMurphy2]

I don't think the Chantry Board/Blackstone quests took very long to create. I remember them saying they added dozens of extra quests due to the delay. I think integrating material into the main storyline would be a lot more work and greater risk of bugs.

If you have a save game with the Cauthrien encounter, replay it a few different ways. First time I failed the persuade check. Then another time I succeeded with the intimidation check.

It is the first game where Bioware have weaved different origins into the storyline. I think they will be better at it in the sequel. So you may see more complexity in the story structure.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 24 novembre 2009 - 02:14 .

[SLPr0]

Well the Gossips and the "Rumors on the Road" you can get from barkeeps are pretty much the "news service" of Ferelden and given its passed through many mouths, is not exactly stuff to be taken seriously.

I still do not believe Loghain had anything to do with the Highever betrayal, the reasoning for this is because of his relative respect and politeness at first meeting at Ostagar.

I believe the shift in Loghain occurred at the War Council when he finally decided that it was time to make a sacrifice for what he believed was simply another Orlesian plot. Cailin was a horrible sacrifice but once made, Loghain was in a position where he must protect the truth of the situation in view of how he wishes it to be percieved, the gossips and rumors that go around are, in my opinion the machinations of Arl Howe, likely with Loghain's approval, and I base this in the one factual encounter we can establish, which is the "Friends of the Grey Wardens" encounter in Denerim.

The people luring Grey Warden sympathizers designate thesmelves as Arl Howe's "elite".

So while Loghain is most definitely in a position where his cheese has fallen off his ******, I believe Arl Howe, is comparatively the Goebbels of the situation and Loghain is simply making use of that as it is expediant to his own goals...which are, in his mind, to protect Ferelden from the misplaced trust and idealism a boy king who was going to open the Kingdom to Orlais once more and maintain the illusion that he was not directly to blame for Cailan's death, which I believe is something even Loghain, internally, was wrestling with, throughout the Origins storyline.

[morrisbrown]

I think you're thinking about this too much. What you're doing is essentially the same (but from a polar opposite stance) as the people who come on the forums to complain that there's too much dialogue, or the game's story is too overbearing: you're projecting what you WANTED Dragon Age to be, instead of assessing it for what it is.

Dragon Age's story is no Dune (the original Frank Herbert series, not Kevin Anderson's bastardizations), and it was never intended to be. If it were a movie, it'd be an epic action movie along the lines of a Gladiator or a Braveheart. In both movies, the stories aren't mind blowing. They're not going to make you look at life differently. And there are many parts that aren't entirely plausible...but their respective stories do their jobs, which is to invoke a sense of "feeling" and concern, so that when the story is resolved the audience is genuinely moved by the conclusion.

You seem disappointed that Dragon Age didn't reach its full potential, but then what game truly does? It's simply not possible to do everything that COULD have been done. There aren't enough hours in the day. Hell, WoW was in development for what, four years? And it's been patched regularly for 5 years...and it still has room for improvement, the devs still have a laundry list of things they'd like to do with it. But at some point you have to draw a line and focus on what you think is best for the game. Try to hunt too many rabbits at once and you'll lose them all.

[Ariella]

SLPr0 wrote...

I still do not believe Loghain had anything to do with the Highever betrayal, the reasoning for this is because of his relative respect and politeness at first meeting at Ostagar.

If Loghain can lie to his own KING with a straight face, you don't think that he'd be able to lie to the PC? Thiws is the same man who tells MAric the love of his life is an Orlesian spy, yet neglects to mention that while she went to Denerim it looks as if she'd done it to severe her connections with her employer, because he WANTS Maric angry enough to kill her. That kind of man would not bat an eyelash about lying to the PC if he though it was for the good of Fereldan.

[SeanMurphy2]

I think the chronology is sometimes messed up.

Loghain is at Ostager when you and Jowan leave the Circle Tower. By the time you get to Lothering, Eamon has already been poisoned and Knights sent out. So between Ostager and Lothering, there is time to recruit Jowan, carry out the poisoning and send out the Redcliffe Knights.

I don't think Loghain was involved with Highever. It seems like a big risk to involve too many people in a premeditated plan to kill the King long before it happens. There was no guarantee that the King would die or the King would change his mind about Orlais.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 24 novembre 2009 - 02:45 .

[Kolaris8472]

Agree 100% the Origins feel half finished - or less.



I mean, ffs, I just got to Orzammar as a Dwarf Noble - Bhelen did not even recognize me! And no, he wasn't trying to play it off, he seriously did not recognize me. Harrowmont says in the tunnels before I'm exiled he believed me, that I didn't kill Trian - then when I meet up with him far later in the game he calls me a Kinslayer.



Was a friggin' joke. Stopped playing right there.

[akachei]

I believe the shift in Loghain occurred at the War Council when he finally decided that it was time to make a sacrifice for what he believed was simply another Orlesian plot. Cailin was a horrible sacrifice but once made, Loghain was in a position where he must protect the truth of the situation in view of how he wishes it to be percieved, the gossips and rumors that go around are, in my opinion the machinations of Arl Howe, likely with Loghain's approval, and I base this in the one factual encounter we can establish, which is the "Friends of the Grey Wardens" encounter in Denerim.

I don't think so, for a couple reasons:

1) Arl Howe is evil, but he's not stupid.  He knows Cailin would go after him after Cailan defeated the darkspawn.  So he has to know Cailin won't be coming back.
2) As mentioned earlier in the thread, the timelines just don't fit for all the planning to happen after the battle.  Both recruiting Uldred and the seizing and hiring of Jowan would take time, especially since Jowan had the time to give some lessons to the boy.

Also, while this is more set against the "he wasn't going to flee until the beacon took so long" camp, there a couple things in the council - the refusal to wait for further troops from inside Ferelden (from, I think, Eamon); the plan to station his own men at the tower; that it was his plan in the first place - that make it clear he was intentionally getting the king killed.  So either he changed his mind early in the meeting and quickly adapted his plans, or (more likely) it was already planned.   Especially as it was a very easy strategy to turn into "he escapes with all his troops while Cailan dies".

Plus, the raw paranoia over Orlais would have kicked in the moment Cailin called the Orlais troops for help - and Cailin's naive romantacism would have left Loghain (who, from what I can tell in-game, hero-worshipped Maric) with few qualms about killing him.  Also consider his reaction when you beat him in a duel - you remind him of Maric, and that leaves him fine with you in power.  Because you are strong, and he feels you know what must be done.  It's his obsession with this ideal - and utter conviction that someone that shares it must be in power, at any cost - that's the cause of this fall.  So it'd be earlier rather than later for him to come to this.

[SLPr0]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Agree 100% the Origins feel half finished - or less.

I mean, ffs, I just got to Orzammar as a Dwarf Noble - Bhelen did not even recognize me! And no, he wasn't trying to play it off, he seriously did not recognize me. Harrowmont says in the tunnels before I'm exiled he believed me, that I didn't kill Trian - then when I meet up with him far later in the game he calls me a Kinslayer.

Was a friggin' joke. Stopped playing right there.

I'm sad to hear this really, its definitely a place where I felt an origin story line would have huge ramifications and apparently the origin story line is being written off with thin plot devices just as much of the human noble origin story line is as well.

[SLPr0]

akachei wrote...

I believe the shift in Loghain occurred at the War Council when he finally decided that it was time to make a sacrifice for what he believed was simply another Orlesian plot. Cailin was a horrible sacrifice but once made, Loghain was in a position where he must protect the truth of the situation in view of how he wishes it to be percieved, the gossips and rumors that go around are, in my opinion the machinations of Arl Howe, likely with Loghain's approval, and I base this in the one factual encounter we can establish, which is the "Friends of the Grey Wardens" encounter in Denerim.

I don't think so, for a couple reasons:

1) Arl Howe is evil, but he's not stupid.  He knows Cailin would go after him after Cailan defeated the darkspawn.  So he has to know Cailin won't be coming back.
2) As mentioned earlier in the thread, the timelines just don't fit for all the planning to happen after the battle.  Both recruiting Uldred and the seizing and hiring of Jowan would take time, especially since Jowan had the time to give some lessons to the boy.

Also, while this is more set against the "he wasn't going to flee until the beacon took so long" camp, there a couple things in the council - the refusal to wait for further troops from inside Ferelden (from, I think, Eamon); the plan to station his own men at the tower; that it was his plan in the first place - that make it clear he was intentionally getting the king killed.  So either he changed his mind early in the meeting and quickly adapted his plans, or (more likely) it was already planned.   Especially as it was a very easy strategy to turn into "he escapes with all his troops while Cailan dies".

Plus, the raw paranoia over Orlais would have kicked in the moment Cailin called the Orlais troops for help - and Cailin's naive romantacism would have left Loghain (who, from what I can tell in-game, hero-worshipped Maric) with few qualms about killing him.  Also consider his reaction when you beat him in a duel - you remind him of Maric, and that leaves him fine with you in power.  Because you are strong, and he feels you know what must be done.  It's his obsession with this ideal - and utter conviction that someone that shares it must be in power, at any cost - that's the cause of this fall.  So it'd be earlier rather than later for him to come to this.

This is possible but the fall of Highever, the recruitment of Jowan....and I'm not sure on the Uldred link, given that Loghain has no trust for the Circle due to its prior Orlesian roots...this would indicate a plan set in motion months before the battle at Ostagar...and that indicates an outright decision by Loghain to supplant Cailan on the throne of Maric, but he does not do this, he declares himself Regent to Anora's throne.

[speedy111280]

Ariella wrote...
Actually, it was Howe's family that was tossed out, and an Orlesian family that replaced his as the Arls of Amaranthine, and it wasn't "very early on", as Queen Moira had been in rebellion for a good portion of her life and that of her son's. It was only, what 6 or so years after her death, that Maric finally dislodged the Orlesians.

And if one takes a look and pays attention to things said in the game, one can see WHY Loghain would kill Bryce Cousland and poison Eamon. Both have connections to Orlias. As you come upon your mother in the noble Origin, she's telling Lady Landra that "Bryce brought me this from Orlias last year..." The Cousland family has been establishing ties with Orlias, and of couse this is not to mention that Eamon MARRIED an Orlesian noblewoman. In Loghain's growning paranoia of Orlias that his only equal in the Landsmeet and probably the most popular Arl both have ties with the enemy.

This is not to mention that Loghain's been in denial that he'd betray Meric since they met Flemeth years ago, so he HAS to deny there's a Blight (as that was also prophecised by Flemeth). And yet to deny the Blight and act as he did, betrayed Maric on so many levels. He betrayed Maric as a Teryn, leaving the South to fall to the dark spawn (as I understand it, the Arls and Banns in his Terynate are direct liegemen of his). He bretrayed Maric personally by allowing Cailin to die, he betrayed the cause he and Maric worked for for years by removing the rightful Theirin blood from the throne and trying to replace it with himself....

It's a nice list of betray compounded by betrayal.

Not to mention that Loghain not only betrayed Maric he betrayed Rowan as well. I've been amused that Rowan has been forgotten in all this. Loghain was so in love with her that he would not come to Denerim at all while Rowan was alive after her marriage to Maric. Cailin is her son and Eamon is her little brother. I think it takes a special kind of jerk to betray your best friend and the woman you love not once but multiple times.

[SLPr0]

speedy111280 wrote...

Ariella wrote...
Actually, it was Howe's family that was tossed out, and an Orlesian family that replaced his as the Arls of Amaranthine, and it wasn't "very early on", as Queen Moira had been in rebellion for a good portion of her life and that of her son's. It was only, what 6 or so years after her death, that Maric finally dislodged the Orlesians.

And if one takes a look and pays attention to things said in the game, one can see WHY Loghain would kill Bryce Cousland and poison Eamon. Both have connections to Orlias. As you come upon your mother in the noble Origin, she's telling Lady Landra that "Bryce brought me this from Orlias last year..." The Cousland family has been establishing ties with Orlias, and of couse this is not to mention that Eamon MARRIED an Orlesian noblewoman. In Loghain's growning paranoia of Orlias that his only equal in the Landsmeet and probably the most popular Arl both have ties with the enemy.

This is not to mention that Loghain's been in denial that he'd betray Meric since they met Flemeth years ago, so he HAS to deny there's a Blight (as that was also prophecised by Flemeth). And yet to deny the Blight and act as he did, betrayed Maric on so many levels. He betrayed Maric as a Teryn, leaving the South to fall to the dark spawn (as I understand it, the Arls and Banns in his Terynate are direct liegemen of his). He bretrayed Maric personally by allowing Cailin to die, he betrayed the cause he and Maric worked for for years by removing the rightful Theirin blood from the throne and trying to replace it with himself....

It's a nice list of betray compounded by betrayal.

Not to mention that Loghain not only betrayed Maric he betrayed Rowan as well. I've been amused that Rowan has been forgotten in all this. Loghain was so in love with her that he would not come to Denerim at all while Rowan was alive after her marriage to Maric. Cailin is her son and Eamon is her little brother. I think it takes a special kind of jerk to betray your best friend and the woman you love not once but multiple times.

But does this actually support as evidence for a long term, tactically planned usurpation of the throne planned months in advance of the Ostagar offensive? Loghain does not deal in intrigues. Its not representative of his character. Loghain is quite obviously represented as a man, up to the point of Ostagar, that if he believes he is right will march an army into any part of the country he feels the need to do so to establish his point.

Had he been involved in Highever's fall, Loghain himself would have marched on Highever under the accusations of Bryce Cousland being in league with the Emperor of Orlais....wrong or not, he wouldn't have sent a toady like Howe to intentionally pretend alliance with the Couslands and wait for the Couslands to commit their troops to the road before striking.

Thats not Loghain's style. Thats Howe's style.

[Mr.Skar]

I understand the argument that Loghain was once a good guy. But I, like most people who played the game, didn't read the novels. I don't think that lore introduced in a novel should apply to how I, someone who didn't read it, play the game. I really would have liked to see more of how Loghain was a hero rather than just a few random mentions of how awesome he once was in an attempt to make me (the player) change my mind about killing the man who left the King and everyone at Ostagar to die. Other than Ser Cauthrien making a rather passionate (and almost compelling) plea before the Landsmeet, I didn't feel the need to even consider letting him live.