147 réponses à ce sujet

[SLPr0]

Mr.Skar wrote...

I understand the argument that Loghain was once a good guy. But I, like most people who played the game, didn't read the novels. I don't think that lore introduced in a novel should apply to how I, someone who didn't read it, play the game. I really would have liked to see more of how Loghain was a hero rather than just a few random mentions of how awesome he once was in an attempt to make me (the player) change my mind about killing the man who left the King and everyone at Ostagar to die. Other than Ser Cauthrien making a rather passionate (and almost compelling) plea before the Landsmeet, I didn't feel the need to even consider letting him live.

Loghain was -never- a good guy. He was always an enigmatic character within the novels, who was always right on the edge of right or wrong, depending on pragmatism and calculation. He outright murdered Ferelden lords who sided with Orlais without remorse or even a second thought....as did Maric, but Maric's motivations were different.

But he was also never a "bad guy" and while his actions were always in various shades of gray he was never the type to plan outright black betrayals. He was always very forthright and if he was going to kill you he would do it from the front....with you well aware he was going to kill you.

[rumination888]

Flemeth said it best: "People believe what they want to believe"

[cpip]

SLPr0 wrote...

Had he been involved in Highever's fall, Loghain himself would have marched on Highever under the accusations of Bryce Cousland being in league with the Emperor of Orlais....wrong or not, he wouldn't have sent a toady like Howe to intentionally pretend alliance with the Couslands and wait for the Couslands to commit their troops to the road before striking.

Thats not Loghain's style. Thats Howe's style.

Ah, but Loghain has multiple fronts to deal with.  He cannot leave the King's side, not for a moment, with a Blight on and the Grey Wardens "poisoning" the King's mind.  So along comes Howe, all oily smiles and forked tongues, who assures Loghain that he can handle the problem with the House of Cousland... and Loghain, busy with so many other things, agrees.  Does he know what Howe plans?  He may deny it to himself, but perhaps he has an inkling.  He knows Howe's style.

[akachei]

This is possible but the fall of Highever, the recruitment of Jowan....and I'm not sure on the Uldred link, given that Loghain has no trust for the Circle due to its prior Orlesian roots...this would indicate a plan set in motion months before the battle at Ostagar...and that indicates an outright decision by Loghain to supplant Cailan on the throne of Maric, but he does not do this, he declares himself Regent to Anora's throne.

Jowan
specifically mentions Loghain as the person who hired him, and it was
Loghain's men that took him away from the templars.  As for Uldred, I'm
fairly certain there's a note in the Circle tower from him saying
they'd have Loghain's support.

As for only becoming a Regent - it's not the title that matters to him, it's that someone who fits his own standards is leading the country.  It's pretty clear that he's ruling the country, not Anora, while he's Regent.  And when Anora defects during the Landsmeet (if you've persuaded her to), then he's perfectly willing to go on his own.

(Edited to remove redundancy).

Modifié par akachei, 24 novembre 2009 - 05:02 .

[Sarethus]

SLPr0 wrote...

akachei wrote...

I believe the shift in Loghain occurred at the War Council when he finally decided that it was time to make a sacrifice for what he believed was simply another Orlesian plot. Cailin was a horrible sacrifice but once made, Loghain was in a position where he must protect the truth of the situation in view of how he wishes it to be percieved, the gossips and rumors that go around are, in my opinion the machinations of Arl Howe, likely with Loghain's approval, and I base this in the one factual encounter we can establish, which is the "Friends of the Grey Wardens" encounter in Denerim.

I don't think so, for a couple reasons:

1) Arl Howe is evil, but he's not stupid.  He knows Cailin would go after him after Cailan defeated the darkspawn.  So he has to know Cailin won't be coming back.
2) As mentioned earlier in the thread, the timelines just don't fit for all the planning to happen after the battle.  Both recruiting Uldred and the seizing and hiring of Jowan would take time, especially since Jowan had the time to give some lessons to the boy.

Also, while this is more set against the "he wasn't going to flee until the beacon took so long" camp, there a couple things in the council - the refusal to wait for further troops from inside Ferelden (from, I think, Eamon); the plan to station his own men at the tower; that it was his plan in the first place - that make it clear he was intentionally getting the king killed.  So either he changed his mind early in the meeting and quickly adapted his plans, or (more likely) it was already planned.   Especially as it was a very easy strategy to turn into "he escapes with all his troops while Cailan dies".

Plus, the raw paranoia over Orlais would have kicked in the moment Cailin called the Orlais troops for help - and Cailin's naive romantacism would have left Loghain (who, from what I can tell in-game, hero-worshipped Maric) with few qualms about killing him.  Also consider his reaction when you beat him in a duel - you remind him of Maric, and that leaves him fine with you in power.  Because you are strong, and he feels you know what must be done.  It's his obsession with this ideal - and utter conviction that someone that shares it must be in power, at any cost - that's the cause of this fall.  So it'd be earlier rather than later for him to come to this.

This is possible but the fall of Highever, the recruitment of Jowan....and I'm not sure on the Uldred link, given that Loghain has no trust for the Circle due to its prior Orlesian roots...this would indicate a plan set in motion months before the battle at Ostagar...and that indicates an outright decision by Loghain to supplant Cailan on the throne of Maric, but he does not do this, he declares himself Regent to Anora's throne.

Loghain does not want the throne itself. Loghain wants to be the power behind the throne. Loghain does not desire titles or crowns but what he does want is Fereldan to be run the way he feels best and for a great deal of Maric's reign & Cailan's reign it was because they listened to him.

The second Cailan stopped listenning to him particularly about Orlais, well "if the King won't listen to him then the King has to die doesn't he?"  

Loghain would be happy for Anora to be Queen, as long as she made decisions that he approved off. i.e: Power & Decision's go to Loghain, Wearing the crown goes to Maric/Cailan/Anora. 

Edit: One thing to bear in mind that Loghain would probably approve more of Anora's decisions then Cailan's or Maric's because as the codex says Anora is truly her father's daughter.

Modifié par Sarethus, 24 novembre 2009 - 05:15 .

[Lianaar]

I am replaying the game with noble origin anew, and I found some nice things which made me reconsider on Loghain a bit.

- he finished the tactical talk with a 'This will be a glorious day, for all of us.' Which already hints he isn't too kind in his motives.

- I forgot that Earl Eamon was poisoned 2 weeks PRIOR Ostagar's fall. That also means that it was months before the battles started that Loghain already sent the mage to teach Connor and then poison the Earl. That is not an act of passion or something that made him hide a mistake. That was already very deliberate planning.

[Janni-in-VA]

Regarding the short shrift the human origin seems to receive...

I have played through five of the six origin stories (I've not yet played the Dalish elf), and all of them are given short shrift, so to speak. I think one point we're missing here is that when you join the Wardens, you give up everything (as Duncan tells us in the Prologue). The Wardens are "...men and women of every race, warriors and mages, barbarians and kings...." In becoming Gray Wardens, they give up their past lives. They are no long men or women, elf or human or dwarf, heir(ess) or thief; they are Wardens. Hence, the events that drive you in the beginning become truly trivial in the face of the Darkspawn threat. You have a Darkspawn Horde to deal with and an archdemon to defeat; everything else is secondary, period. Remember, also, that Duncan rescues you from an impossible situation, and this rescue requires some gratitude in the form of loyalty to the Wardens' quest. Oh, and one more small thing--after the Joining, you can't go back to what you were. You have been irrevocably changed.

In the most kindly interpretations of his actions, Loghain is so fixed on Fereldan that he simply can't see the greater threat. He hates Orlais so much that he can't even trust the Gray Wardens whose only goal is ending the Blight. In fact, he trivializes them, telling his daughter, "This is no true blight, Anora...." However, there is no valid reason for Loghain to betray his king, the son of his best friend. Instead, Loghain short-sightedly refuses to see the larger threat and leaves Cailan (whom he'd probably known since birth) to die on the field at Ostagar. Lo, how the mighty have fallen!  You don't have the same luxury; you must deal with the larger threat, and nothing else can matter.

One more thought--comparing books to games seems to me to be rather like comparing a novel to a movie.  There are things in the book that are going to be left out or glossed over or referred to only in passing in the movie due to the contraints inherent in trying to tell a 300-page story in two hours.  Even epic length movies can't include everything.  One might reasonably suppose that the same constraints apply to books and games.

I realize that in forum terms this thread is quite elderly, and I apologize if I've restated the same points made by others.  I just wasn't prepared to wade through six pages of posts.

Edit:  I've since read through all the posts and am more familiar with other points of view.  I've not played through to the end yet.  I've finished Redcliffe, Broken Circle and Nature of the Beast.  Three of my characters (I currently have six.) are now working through A Paragon of Her Kind.

Modifié par Janni-in-VA, 11 février 2010 - 01:09 .

[Aldridgeguy]

Refering back to the OP, I haven't read the books and as such, didn't realise that Duncan was Orlesian ( if it mentioned it in the game then I must have missed it lol ) It kinda makes me wonder then, why he doesn't have an Orlesian accent in the game ?

[TripLight]

No his father is Ferelden and his Mother was Rivaini I think, he grew up in between the Free Marches and Orlais, where he was recruited in the Gw's. Well from what I understand.

[FierachEredasSoulchiou]

Is there a way to quote the OP in a way I can interject my thoughts and opinions in order of the points he brings up without the goddamn formatting getting in the way?

[Harcken]

I think this is less a problem with the literary aptitude of the authors, and more a problem with the scheme of Origins in general. To be honest, I never liked how Origins was set up: choose between multiple races and multiple backgrounds for your own "unique" story. First, this kills one of my favorite events of being the protagonist, visiting his home, and a large portion of the story is the protagonist finding his identity, and tying up lose ends towards his own problems. Since the devs have to do this for a variety of different combinations, each individual background/race isn't going to get much. A couple lines here, maybe visit the homeland with this character, but nothing really changes, etc...

I'm hoping that in DA2 they can focus on a singular protagonist and fully flesh out his story, take advantage of his background, and create a much more "emotionally engaging" story, as the Bioware doctors love to say. I really enjoyed Dragon Age, but I think it could have been a lot better with just one protagonist.

[Ellestor]

I agree with the bulk of the post.

Especially on Alistair's inability to see straight at the Landsmeet, becoming not only a frighteningly vindictive man I'd dread to see on the throne, but also impossible to communicate with. Suddenly Loghain seems to be a still lake compared to Alistair's tempestuous insanity. His character completely changed at that moment, thus my opinion of him, and I was suddenly almost happy to be rid of this man I'd come to see as a brother. Utterly petulant.

After spending most of the game taking every opportunity to remind me what an awful king he'd be, and spending all his time at Arl Eamon's Estate after the rescue of Anora telling me how she's a great queen and welcome to the throne, the most confounding moment for me at the Landsmeet had to be:

Adin: Very well. Anora will remain on the throne.
Alistair: You're siding with her? How could you do this to me? You of all people?
Adin: I thought you hated the idea of being king.
Alistair: What is wrong with you? I thought we were friends!

And he wasn't being sarcastic? What the Flemeth?

Modifié par Ellestor, 10 février 2010 - 02:41 .

[SurelyForth]

Adin: Very well. Anora will remain on the throne.
Alistair: You're siding with her? How could you do this to me? You of all people?
Adin: I thought you hated the idea of being king.
Alistair: What is wrong with you? I thought we were friends!

And he wasn't being sarcastic? What the Flemeth?

At that point you're choosing between sparing Loghain or keeping Alistair. If you don't say that you want to spare Loghain and you choose Anora the normal way, he's fine with it. Once you've reached the point where he wants to see Loghain brought to justice he will name himself king and you either go with it or name Anora, which sucks for him.

Seriously, you weren't really paying attention if you had no inkling that he would be profoundly uncool with you recruiting Loghain. When you choose Loghain you are betraying him and everything he thought you were working towards. Right or wrong, it's very personal for him and he can't separate his feelings from the situation. So much so that, unless you name him king and kill Loghain, his life is ruined.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 10 février 2010 - 03:04 .

[Addai]

I haven't read the whole wall of text, but one factual misstatement in the OP: Ser Jory doesn't recognize you, but as soon as you identify yourself as son or daughter of the Teryn he gives obeisance to you as a Cousland. This isn't the age of television. What are the chances that every knight in Highever would recognize the lord's youngest child, when presented with him or her out of context? And Jory started out in Redcliffe, he is not a native. He married a Highever girl.

[Aldridgeguy]

Harcken wrote...

I'm hoping that in DA2 they can focus on a singular protagonist and fully flesh out his story, take advantage of his background, and create a much more "emotionally engaging" story, as the Bioware doctors love to say. I really enjoyed Dragon Age, but I think it could have been a lot better with just one protagonist.

I can see where you are coming from and agree with you to a point, but I think the devs chose multiple protagonists to increase the " replay-ability " of the game and to be honest it worked, I'm on my 5th playthrough now and already have plans hatching for my 6th lol

[Ellestor]

SurelyForth wrote...

Adin: Very well. Anora will remain on the throne.
Alistair: You're siding with her? How could you do this to me? You of all people?
Adin: I thought you hated the idea of being king.
Alistair: What is wrong with you? I thought we were friends!

And he wasn't being sarcastic? What the Flemeth?

At that point you're choosing between sparing Loghain or keeping Alistair. If you don't say that you want to spare Loghain and you choose Anora the normal way, he's fine with it. Once you've reached the point where he wants to see Loghain brought to justice he will name himself king and you either go with it or name Anora, which sucks for him.

Seriously, you weren't really paying attention if you had no inkling that he would be profoundly uncool with you recruiting Loghain. When you choose Loghain you are betraying him and everything he thought you were working towards. Right or wrong, it's very personal for him and he can't separate his feelings from the situation. So much so that, unless you name him king and kill Loghain, his life is ruined.

I'd engaged very deeply with his character and never got the impression he craved so much vengeance on Loghain or that he'd demand the throne for the authority to execute him.

Not just that, but he doesn't seem to be listening at that point. It was just, 'I don't know you anymore! It's over! Men are such scum!' I couldn't nail down the issues separately and engage him on them. I wish that I could have really argued, even if it wouldn't have changed the outcome. It felt like he was suddenly on another plane and every one of my available responses could be boiled down to a shrug. Nothing to counter his rising hysteria but a lame, 'Alistair, don't be hysterical.' This with full persuasion.

Just unsatisfying altogether. I didn't feel that way about any other exchange in the game, but this certainly seemed important.

Modifié par Ellestor, 10 février 2010 - 05:02 .

[Lakmoots]

I am a Literary Critic... this is *not* Literary Criticism.

You are having a personal disagreement with the character motivation of some of these characters... you disagree on how they responded and reacted.

It *may* be a flaw of the text if there were no other justifying reason why the characters would have acted the way they did... you are simply disagreeing that they should have acted this way.

Try "Wuthering Heights"...

Also, a plot-hole is an element of the plot that is never justified or resolved... once again, your criticism is that it was not a satisfying resolution.

I disagree that the Origin stories were ignored... in fact many books will have a personal story that takes a back seat to main events, then is resolved in the final stages of the text. A suprise return by a missing relative counts as an "element" or even a "cliche".

All your criticism of Alistair, or Loghain are utterly debatable. Some are factually wrong.

So... I think you score well for an opinion piece... pretty ****ing far from Literary Criticism, though.

I felt the same way after the last episode of Buffy...

[bri193]

Well, I managed to read through the OP wall of text, and despite what the OP may think, his piece was not lit crit ... Also, I never read the books ...

Something the OP failed to deal with was the issue of vengeance. At the end of the origin story (remember the cut scene with the dying father..), this is the main driving force for the youngest Cousland leaving with Ducan - to reap vengeance.on those responsible.



Howe was not the only one responsible. Howe could not have done what he did without the knowledge and consent of Loghan, he was Loghan's pawn in this. Scratch deeper, and we see Anora, who is reported to be the true power behind the king, and Loghan's daughter.If you chatted with the king guard outside his tent in Ostagar, he mentions arguments between the king and Loghan regarding strategy AND Anora...

Fast-forward to events just before Landmeet, where you make a deal with Anora. She is very circumspect regarding her motives. However, what is clear is her desire to maintain her status as queen at all costs, going so far as to agreeing to marry wimpy king Alistair to do so.



Next, the Loghan duel ... Imo, the only possible outcome here that is in keeping with the origin story, i.e. taking vengeance on those responsible for crimes on the Cousland's, is killing Loghan. No way he gets a Grey Warden pass into fame, he dies by your hand.

But wait... What about Anora's involvement in all this? What did she know about events that went on under her watch as queen? Having Alistair deliver the 'final blow' on Loghan, puts a wedge between Anora and Alistair, sending her to prison. Thus the Cousland vengeance is complete - all parties dead or otherwise indisposed.

This can be the only 'just' ending for the human noble origin. Any other that panders to Loghan's past service or to Anora's desire for power are not in keeping with the promise you made to your dying father.If you play a female noble, then you can have the 'just' and 'happy' ending being married to Alistair (if this is indeed a 'happy' thing to do ...) and being queen...

[Vicious]

I didn't promise my father vengeance, I promised him I would do my best. So basically that invalidates your whole 'just' crap. Especially considering the devs have already said Arl Howe massacred your family on his own, no help or knowledge from Loghain. Is it awfully convenient? Yes, but the dev's have spoken and that's that.


Quit making assertions that don't happen in half player's games, as they have zero basis in this discussion, which shouldn't have been rezzed.


That said, Human noble origin is full of missed opportunities, but none of them have to do with Loghain.



Lastly, everyone makes a CRITICAL ERROR in judgement. I read all the time "Arl Howe was evil but NOT STUPID." 



No, he wasn't. but no one is supposed to survive the Human Noble origin. If you are any other origin you merely hear references that he rules Highever but no one disputes it, because surprise surprise, he killed ALL of them and got away scot free.


Every origin is CHANGING FATE.' and without you piloting the character, they don't make it. The Human Noble is supposed to die defending his father because Duncan was not there. The Dwarf Noble dies in the deep roads because Duncan was not there to run into. The Elf Commoner is led off and executed because Duncan was not there to conscript him.


Loghain has nothing to do with ANY origin story, no matter how much people try to reach or make up yet more reasons [like there needs to be more] as to why he is 'teh evil.' HE IS A BAD GUY WHO CAN BE REDEEMED. He is, really, not that complex.

Modifié par Vicious, 10 février 2010 - 06:30 .

[_Aine_]

Duncan says a poignant truth more than once that may explain it, though it was done so with a bit of subtlety and more "hint" than straight-out statement. Your old life is OVER when you become a Grey Warden. Duncan gave up his last name as a symbolic breaking of ties to his past life. From the moment you survive the joining ( and perhaps after you leave or are hauled off by Duncan) it matters little whether you are the Queen of Antiva or a skullery maid from Denerim.

Yes, there were certain moments that I wished for "more" of one thing or another, a stronger tie to my origin story but this would probably create exponential options to be written in dialogue. Just because a situation is highly important or life-changing to your HN doesn't mean it would mean a darned thing to my dwarven commoner ( for example).

I have to admit, *if* you have read the books ( which i have) certain characters come across (at first glance ) as almost caricatures of who I have come to see them as. Loghain is one of those. But, this is a game after all, which I think does change things in terms of story-telling.

Edit: One thing that should be mentioned is that a lot of the information is hidden in dialogues that you would *not* uncover on one or even a few playthroughs. I have done half of the game at LEAST 15 times, through different character points of view, my last few playthroughs being very thorough to speak to everyone I can, especially of the most notable people involved. You start to piece together the story differently and through game-devices alone, can come up to a vastly different perspective of the political and personal motivations of the main characters, especially insights relating to the King/Loghain relationship, the balance of power and through much later discussions and discoveries, the almost puppeteering of Loghain by Howe.

I don't regret "wasting" my time talking to the characters through the mindset of my various "me's" personalities, at all. I have discovered ( I think anyway) more about the real motivations of the players, than the game is, i think, designed to fool you into thinking right away. Like many things, the truth is deeper than it appears at first glance.

Modifié par shantisands, 10 février 2010 - 06:57 .

[Janni-in-VA]

"...which shouldn't have been rezzed."

I said in my original post reviving this thread, "I realize that in forum terms this thread is quite elderly...." As a newish member of the forums, I elected to respond to the OP in spite of the fact that the thread was three months old because I was interested and felt I had something to say. To me, those are the only two reasons I need to respond to any thread I choose, no matter how old it is. Freedom of speech, anyone?

Modifié par Janni-in-VA, 11 février 2010 - 01:10 .

[ciaweth]

Yes, because thread necroing is a Constitutional right.

[Jaulen]

As a male PC I got the jailer in the cell by saying I was lonely, and got him to take off his armor, then I pummeled him. puching a guy in armor is just dumb. Get him to take it off first.