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[Shantale1]

Ok what I did not get about Anders and this merger was that Vengeance in Awakenings killed himself in front of the Widows house...so please enlighten me on how he merged with Anders?

Modifié par Shantale1, 18 octobre 2011 - 09:33 .

[slyborg]

Shantale1 wrote...

Ok what I did not get about Anders and this merger was that Vengeance in Awakenings killed himself in front of the Widows house...so please enlighten me on how he merged with Anders?

He left the body  of the Warden he was possessing, he didn't kill himself. I don't think spirts can be killed, he would have just returned to the Fade. He probably merged with Anders after that.

Justice is not a demon as some people have stated in this thread, he is a spirit like the one that merged with Wynne. 

[Heidenreich]

Annnd now we're reduced to insulting people who might romance Anders! Because it can't just be a video game and we absolutely aren't allowed to do things in it that you wouldn't do! THEY MUST BE CRAZY IF THEY CONTINUE TO ROMANCE A GAME CHARACTER WITH ANOTHER ONE.

Seriously?

Seriously guys --

He blows up the chantry because it forces all mages to fight instead of yet one more time allow the Chantry to tell them what to do.

Killing Meredith only temporarily solves the problem in KIRKWALL and the point of the act is to START A WAR.

The question is no different then "Why didn't Meredith just kill Anders or put him into custody and make him tranquil ." Because she's crazy and she was going to use the Rite of Annulment no matter what. In fact Karras says as much when you click on him in the gallows in act three.

Even if he didn't blow up the chantry, Meredith would have found a reason to call on the Rite. The only problem is, being that she was The Knight Commander of the Kirkwall Circle, no one would have questioned her decision. Not The Divine, Not Elthina, Not all of Thedas. There would have been no war, because no one would take a second look at it.

By blowing up the Chantry, it forced Meredith to call the Rite for a crime someone OTHER then the Circle committed. Thus, it makes her look insane. Because she is insane. Not only does she call the Rite for something someone outside the circle does, but then she raises half of the city to accomplish it.

So now not only is she insane, but she's blood-thirsty. This will cause ALL OF THEDAS to second guess Meredith's actions, and force Mages to take a stand for themselves rather then just continue to be herded like sheep.

Which, no matter what side you take - Varric tells us this in the pro-log. That Due to the actions of Hawke in Kirkwall all of the rest of the Circles in Thedas rise up against the Chantry. Because The Knight-Commander is Appointed by the Chantry. And if they were so very negligent as to appoint a crazy woman to a position that's supposed to be PROTECTING Mages, then what other egregious Errors are they over looking/ignoring?


*huff*

Remember, the Circle was created to give mages a SAFE place to learn to control their powers among their own kind. In the centuries since its creation it's gone from a school to a prison, and big chunks of Templars abuse the power granted to them by the chantry.

In the words of Cullen "A Templars job is to protect mages."

That's right Cullen. Protect. Not Imprison or strip of basic human rights or mentally and sexually abuse. Which for some reason people don't grasp when they're all "BUT THE TEMPLARS ARE RIGHT, MAGES ARE DANGEROUS."

You're right, they are dangerous. Which is why they suggested they start the circle in the first place. But what the circle all over Thedas was intended to be, and what it has become, are two wildly different things. And its not good.

*flail* I could rant for ages, but you're not really here to have a discussion. You're here to bait. And I've already nibbled enough.

[CuriousArtemis]

Heidenreich wrote...

Annnd now we're reduced to insulting people who might romance Anders! Because it can't just be a video game and we absolutely aren't allowed to do things in it that you wouldn't do! THEY MUST BE CRAZY IF THEY CONTINUE TO ROMANCE A GAME CHARACTER WITH ANOTHER ONE.

Seriously?

Seriously guys --

He blows up the chantry because it forces all mages to fight instead of yet one more time allow the Chantry to tell them what to do.

Killing Meredith only temporarily solves the problem in KIRKWALL and the point of the act is to START A WAR.

The question is no different then "Why didn't Meredith just kill Anders or put him into custody and make him tranquil ." Because she's crazy and she was going to use the Rite of Annulment no matter what. In fact Karras says as much when you click on him in the gallows in act three.

Even if he didn't blow up the chantry, Meredith would have found a reason to call on the Rite. The only problem is, being that she was The Knight Commander of the Kirkwall Circle, no one would have questioned her decision. Not The Divine, Not Elthina, Not all of Thedas. There would have been no war, because no one would take a second look at it.

By blowing up the Chantry, it forced Meredith to call the Rite for a crime someone OTHER then the Circle committed. Thus, it makes her look insane. Because she is insane. Not only does she call the Rite for something someone outside the circle does, but then she raises half of the city to accomplish it.

So now not only is she insane, but she's blood-thirsty. This will cause ALL OF THEDAS to second guess Meredith's actions, and force Mages to take a stand for themselves rather then just continue to be herded like sheep.

Which, no matter what side you take - Varric tells us this in the pro-log. That Due to the actions of Hawke in Kirkwall all of the rest of the Circles in Thedas rise up against the Chantry. Because The Knight-Commander is Appointed by the Chantry. And if they were so very negligent as to appoint a crazy woman to a position that's supposed to be PROTECTING Mages, then what other egregious Errors are they over looking/ignoring?


*huff*

Remember, the Circle was created to give mages a SAFE place to learn to control their powers among their own kind. In the centuries since its creation it's gone from a school to a prison, and big chunks of Templars abuse the power granted to them by the chantry.

In the words of Cullen "A Templars job is to protect mages."

That's right Cullen. Protect. Not Imprison or strip of basic human rights or mentally and sexually abuse. Which for some reason people don't grasp when they're all "BUT THE TEMPLARS ARE RIGHT, MAGES ARE DANGEROUS."

You're right, they are dangerous. Which is why they suggested they start the circle in the first place. But what the circle all over Thedas was intended to be, and what it has become, are two wildly different things. And its not good.

*flail* I could rant for ages, but you're not really here to have a discussion. You're here to bait. And I've already nibbled enough.

Wow, I was never really able to articulate why I understand and sympathize with Anders' actions, despite the fact that I abhor terrorism and certainly DO NOT condone what he did.  But you summed it up quite beautifully

Plus there's really nothing sadder in the world than the sight of Anders sitting all by himself after the Chantry has been blown up and Hawke has to decide whether to kill him or not...

# of times I've managed to let Hawke kill Anders = 0

[Raging Nug]

I don't know if I think Ander's actions constitute an act of terrorism so much as retribution. What the Templars do is terrorism, and Anders is very much fed up with it.

As far as DA3 is concerned, having the option of killing someone does not mean they can't appear later. There are LOTS of characters you can kill in DA:O who 'can' appear in DA:A/DA2 but won't if they've died, so it just has to do with how you play it.

Interesting how much Cullen changes, eh?

[AbsoluteApril]

BevH wrote...
And this is vengeance. It's why I've come to believe that even in DAA, that "spirit" was always Vengeance.

I wondered that as well or possibly once the 'spirit' of Justice came into the 'really real world' he became twisted into Vengence (or corrupted by vengence?**) even before joining with Anders. He says something along the lines of - now that he is in the mortal realm he can apprecaite why the demons desire to cross over from the fade. To me, that was the start of Justice's fall... an empathy for that desire meaning he might start to feel it himself. (I hope that made sense)

**that occured to me because of some of the banter (taken from wiki), that either Justice become a demon or merged with or was taken over by one knowingly or not


Nathaniel: What if you found a living body to possess?
Justice: Even if I knew how, I would not possess the living. Such is an act for demons
 
Anders: Why do spirits seek out mages? I've always wondered.
Justice: You speak of demons. I am not a demon.
Anders: Aren't demons simply spirits with unique and sparkling personalities?
Justice: They have been perverted by their desires.
later:

Anders: Are you saying that you could become a demon, Justice?
Justice: I said no such thing.
Anders: You said that demons were spirits perverted by their desires.
Justice: I have no such desires.
Anders: You must have some desires...
Justice: I have none! Desist your questions!
(later he says he isn't really sure what makes demons what they are)

Modifié par AbsoluteApril, 19 octobre 2011 - 08:07 .

[Raging Nug]

I find Justice's situation with Kristoff akin to whatever Wynn went through in the circle tower before the warden shows up, in the sense that he is benevolent throughout the ordeal.
I think it's made pretty clear in DA2 that it was Anders who corrupted Justice when they merged together. The banter in DA:A was good foreshadowing, but I'm pretty sure he hadn't fallen or started to fall just yet.

[BevH]

Raging Nug wrote...

I find Justice's situation with Kristoff akin to whatever Wynn went through in the circle tower before the warden shows up, in the sense that he is benevolent throughout the ordeal.
I think it's made pretty clear in DA2 that it was Anders who corrupted Justice when they merged together. The banter in DA:A was good foreshadowing, but I'm pretty sure he hadn't fallen or started to fall just yet.

But this is the problem I'm having. Wynn's spirit gave her the "warm fuzzies"; it sustained her life and nothing more.

With Justice, it's always about revenge - even with Aura. And that, to me, is vengeance, not justice.

[Raging Nug]

When Justice is inside of Kirstoff, he's simply trying to make the best of things, which is what Wynn was doing. That's the connection I made between the two. Essentially, as far as I could tell, Justice was acting in Kirstoff's stead.

As far the situation Aura goes, I think it depends on your definition of the concept of Justice, doesn't it? He's certainly not going with the Socratic definition at any rate, but whether his actions are really 'right' or 'wrong' depend on your own personal bias. I think he certainly takes things a little far in DA2, but for the most part he's very stoic in Origins.

[Anvos]

slyborg wrote...

Shantale1 wrote...

Ok what I did not get about Anders and this merger was that Vengeance in Awakenings killed himself in front of the Widows house...so please enlighten me on how he merged with Anders?

He left the body  of the Warden he was possessing, he didn't kill himself. I don't think spirts can be killed, he would have just returned to the Fade. He probably merged with Anders after that.

Justice is not a demon as some people have stated in this thread, he is a spirit like the one that merged with Wynne. 

Gets tricky there as DA II seems to show that Justice is, whether he knows it or not, turning into a rage demon.

[Gervaise]

In response to the above rant - not all mages want to fight - even the ones stuck in the hell hole known as the Gallows. Yes, Templars are meant to protect mages, not abuse them - which is why the Gallows seems so at odds with the situation as portrayed in the Origins Circle. Now I wasn't entirely comfortable with that - the rite of tranquility sounded a terrible thing, the tranquil came across as a bit creepy and I felt sorry for the Templars being controlled by the Chantry through their enforced addiction to lyrium - I really felt for that poor guy that Howe had locked up and was suffering from withdrawal. There was enough there to question the system, which I did.

So initially being presented with the situation in Kirkwall and introduced to Anders, through what was done to Karl, only reinforced my previous doubts about the status quo and made me happy to support him - inspite of the rather disturbing glowing thing. Then to be honest the writers went completely OTT both in their depiction of the Templars brutality and the free mages outside the Circle, plus the insanity aspect of the Knight Commander. In fact the reason her actions might not have been questioned if she had called a Rite of Annulment without the bomb is that events leading up to that point suggested that she was right about the presence of blood mages within the Circle and perfectly justified in asking to make a thorough search of it. However, she also knew that not all the mages there were corrupt because she admitted as much to my non mage Hawke when discussing Bethany.

However, a bomb is a bomb when all is said and done. It was an act of terrorism, it was against a civilian target, it did kill more than just the Grand Cleric and a few Templars, it did destroy and set fire to parts of the city before Meredith got going. Yes, and I totally get that is was deliberately done to start a war because one person thought that nothing would be gained by continuing the path that my Hawke was on (as a mage) which was showing that a free mage in a position of power can be trusted not to abuse it, they don't automatically turn to blood magic, that you are willing to apprehend wrong doers whether they are mages or not, that you defend the weak and oppose the strong, and this from a mage who had never been part of a Circle. If the writers had allowed it, my Hawke would have openly challenged Meredith and given the amount of support they had both within the Templars and the City, plus in a least one case being on good terms with the Grand Cleric, they would have succeeded. Most of my anger has always been directed at the contrived plot and character manipulation.

At the end of the day, my Hawke gave up everything they had accomplished in their previous time in Kirkwall, title, wealth, status in order to defend the lives of mages innocent of the crime for which they had been condemned by both Meredith and Anders. Your rant confirmed what I have always said - he knew when he set off that bomb that not only would the Grand Cleric and the people in the Chantry die but all the mages in the Circle would be condemned. He also knew (because he condones mages going weird because they are desparate) that the rest of the population would be put at risk as well.

At the end of the day, that bomb wasn't Justice and it wasn't Vengence because it only became that as a result of a situation the bomb created. And since the Resolutionists are said to be doing the same thing all over Thedas, Anders actions alone weren't necessarily the catalyst for the conflict, just the last straw. I do object to being made part of a movement whose prime aim is to cause fear in the population in order to get what they want and again I do not see how Justice is served by so doing.

And so far as the romance is concerned - people do do crazy things and fall for dangerous people - my cousin died because she fell in love with a person whom she had been warned was dangerous but she was convinced she could change - I was expressing how it appeared to my character the first time I played the game and I didn't know what was going to happen later. Mind you none of the romances are exactly "safe", but only one involves the added complication of a "warped" spirit.

I also think that whilst Anders' anger may have warped Justice more, the time within Kristoff had sowed the seeds because it had brought the spirit into contact with human emotion on a much more personal level and from that point on it began to change. I also think the scene described when it leaves Kristoff was after it made the deal with Anders and that is where it went, because Anders says it was better than Justice occupying a dead body, which implies that it wouldn't have just returned to the Fade on leaving Kristoff. This is why I and others have questioned what became of Justice after Anders' death - does it continue to control his corpse or did it find someone else? Even Anders' final words suggest that it doesn't just return to the Fade.

[slyborg]

Anvos wrote...

slyborg wrote...

Shantale1 wrote...

Ok what I did not get about Anders and this merger was that Vengeance in Awakenings killed himself in front of the Widows house...so please enlighten me on how he merged with Anders?

He left the body  of the Warden he was possessing, he didn't kill himself. I don't think spirts can be killed, he would have just returned to the Fade. He probably merged with Anders after that.

Justice is not a demon as some people have stated in this thread, he is a spirit like the one that merged with Wynne. 

Gets tricky there as DA II seems to show that Justice is, whether he knows it or not, turning into a rage demon.

I still think his actions pertain more to him being a spirt of Justice/Vengeance. He doesn't go off the handle about any old thing like a rage demon. The injustices to mages brings out his vengeful side but he isn't flipping out about Hawke burning his sandwich. 

[Lilunebrium]

MG800 wrote...
It is. And he didn't wear a sign, but he did act suspicious, and he's very, very bad at lying.
Please, don't mix what you know, with what you think your Hawke should know. In Thedas, noone is making mild explosives out of sala petrae for fun. Your Hawke know fo sure, that he's acting suspicious - now whatever to help him further or not is his decision. Acting suspicious and lying is too little, to murder-knife someone. Not to mention, someone who you worked with for years.

^ This.
When asked what Hawke should talk to the Grand Cleric about while distracting her, Anders actually says something along the lines of "Actually, talk to her about mages, give her one last chance to change her views" right after mentioning how only something 'drastic' can change the lot of mages.

If that's not foreshadowing, I don't know what is. While not necessarly immediately having to lead to a "Whoa, BOMB"-assumption, it's pretty obvious that whatever Anders is planning, it's going to have one heck of a repercussion.

Plus, if I, probably one of the most naïve and gullible persons out there, can get suspicious (which was without knowing beforehand what would happen), I don't see why a more level-headed Hawke cannot. I also don't see why the only precaution Hawke could make, was tell the Grand Cleric some apostate is up to something, and then abandon the notion altogether when Elthina brushes it off. 

That being said, and to go back on topic, if you look at Dragon Age II Anders seperate from Dragon Age Awakening Anders, I really do think Jennifer Brandes Hepler did a terrific job on him. You may not like him, you may even hate him, but he was wonderfully written nonetheless. I wonder what people who didn't play Origins think of him.

Modifié par Lilunebrium, 20 octobre 2011 - 10:57 .

[Lilunebrium]

Also.

Gervaise wrote...

Problem is that if he really wanted Vengeance against the Templars, why didn't he blow up Meredith? That would have solved everyone's problems (including Elthina - cause Sebastian says Meredith isn't listening to her anymore). Hell the other Templars would probably have given him a medal. So may be that's why he didn't - because Justice wouldn't do anything that would help the Templars.

Anders did go against the Templars. It's not as if the Chantry and the Templar Order are two different entities. When you can disable an entire body, why would you go for just the hand?

Modifié par Lilunebrium, 19 octobre 2011 - 09:33 .

[MG800]

Lilunebrium wrote...

MG800 wrote...
It is. And he didn't wear a sign, but he did act suspicious, and he's very, very bad at lying.
Please, don't mix what you know, with what you think your Hawke should know. In Thedas, noone is making mild explosives out of sala petrae for fun. Your Hawke know fo sure, that he's acting suspicious - now whatever to help him further or not is his decision. Acting suspicious and lying is too little, to murder-knife someone. Not to mention, someone who you worked with for years.

When asked what Hawke should talk to the Grand Cleric about while distracting her, Anders actually says something along the lines of "Actually, talk to her about mages, give her one last chance to change her views" right after mentioning how only something 'drastic' can change the lot of mages.

If that's not foreshadowing, I don't know what is. While not necessarly immediately having to lead to a "Whoa, BOMB"-assumption, it's pretty obvious that whatever Anders is planning, it's going to have one heck of a repercussion.

Plus, if I, probably one of the most naïve and gullible persons out there, can get suspicious (which was without knowing beforehand what would happen), I don't see why a more level-headed Hawke cannot. I also don't see why the only precaution Hawke could make, was tell the Grand Cleric some apostate is up to something, and then abandon the notion altogether when Elthina brushes it off. 

That being said, and to go back on topic, if you look at Dragon Age II Anders seperate from Dragon Age Awakening Anders, I really do think Jennifer Brandes Hepler did a terrific job on him. You may not like him, you may even hate him, but he was wonderfully written nonetheless. I wonder what people who didn't play Origins think of him.

I wonder why are you quoting me - you agree with everything I said.

Modifié par MG800, 19 octobre 2011 - 10:12 .

[Yuqi]

Anders=Multi-personality disorder,literally .

[Gervaise]

Strangely enough, apart from calling Elthina a doddering old biddy, most of Anders' criticism is levelled at Meredith. When Fenris says she is the only one holding back the madness, Anders replies that "she's howling to the bloody moon". If you talk to King Alistair, he expresses the opinion that Meredith is the problem with the city. When nobles offer you their support, it is in undermining Meredith's power by removing her elite hit squad and destroying her supplies (I assume reserves of lyrium). Therefore, the logical step is to remove Meredith because everyone agrees this is what is needed to restore a bit of sanity to the situation, including Anders himself. Alternatively, if he wanted to make a big statement against the Chantry, then head on up to Orlais and take out the Divine. She was the one considering an Exalted March - Elthina was the one who wanted to prevent one. It was all very well saying he would kill anyone to achieve freedom for mages but you do need mages left to enjoy that freedom. Condemning mages to death to further his cause is in fact denying them their freedom of choice. And my non mage Hawkes have tended to be particularly angry because one of those mages is their little sister. I think it was when he disparagingly referred to her as a "dog on a leash" to Meredith that my latest Hawke cooled towards Anders. I also wonder how those nobles whose support I won, viewed the bomb, given how most of the damage seemed to occur in Hightown immediately adjacent to the Chantry. Whilst not everyone would have been demanding the death of every mage, as Meredith suggested, I doubt their enthusiasm for the cause of mage freedom was as great after the event. After all it was a free mage who did the deed.

[Lilunebrium]

MG800 wrote...

Lilunebrium wrote...

MG800 wrote...
It is. And he didn't wear a sign, but he did act suspicious, and he's very, very bad at lying.
Please, don't mix what you know, with what you think your Hawke should know. In Thedas, noone is making mild explosives out of sala petrae for fun. Your Hawke know fo sure, that he's acting suspicious - now whatever to help him further or not is his decision. Acting suspicious and lying is too little, to murder-knife someone. Not to mention, someone who you worked with for years.

When asked what Hawke should talk to the Grand Cleric about while distracting her, Anders actually says something along the lines of "Actually, talk to her about mages, give her one last chance to change her views" right after mentioning how only something 'drastic' can change the lot of mages.

If that's not foreshadowing, I don't know what is. While not necessarly immediately having to lead to a "Whoa, BOMB"-assumption, it's pretty obvious that whatever Anders is planning, it's going to have one heck of a repercussion.

Plus, if I, probably one of the most naïve and gullible persons out there, can get suspicious (which was without knowing beforehand what would happen), I don't see why a more level-headed Hawke cannot. I also don't see why the only precaution Hawke could make, was tell the Grand Cleric some apostate is up to something, and then abandon the notion altogether when Elthina brushes it off. 

That being said, and to go back on topic, if you look at Dragon Age II Anders seperate from Dragon Age Awakening Anders, I really do think Jennifer Brandes Hepler did a terrific job on him. You may not like him, you may even hate him, but he was wonderfully written nonetheless. I wonder what people who didn't play Origins think of him.

I wonder why are you quoting me - you agree with everything I said.

Eh. Forgot to add "^ This" . Fixed now.

[Wulfram]

Anders' target reflects that his objection was to the system itself, not just to the abuse of it.

[Raging Nug]

Well, we can never be 'completely' sure of anything, can we? Despite that, I'm pretty sure that there's a distinct difference between the Justice we see in DAA and DA2, regardless of plot progression in either game. In Awakening he displays some sympathy to Anders, but doesn't really consider doing anything about it himself. In DA2 he cares so much that he assumes direct control of Anders at multiple points in the story in order to get his way. I think that distinction alone might be reason enough to realize impact of the joining, and how much Justice lost himself.

[Gervaise]

Justice's view of the world is being filtered through Ander's perception of it. You can acuse Anders' of hypocrisy if you wish but in fact Justice is only responding to his emotions.

I realise now this is why he doesn't reveal himself to Tallis, because on the whole the issue of the Qun and mages is never really challenged in the DLC, just referred to and then brushed off by Tallis, so Anders never has the opportunity to get really upset by it and thus Justice remains dormant.

There are only a few occasions when Justice seems to show himself directly:
When we walk into the clinic the first time, Anders would be concerned, not knowing if the newcomers are hostile/working for the Templars, Justice feels the surge of anxiety and so is ready to act if necessary.
When we discover Karl naturally Anders' would have a extreme surge of emotion and this brings out Justice.
When we confront Alric, Anders again would have a surge of emotion at seeing Ella threatened but he is able to keep Justice under control initially.
When Ella calls him a demon, Justice is still very much awake, Anders probably reacts emotionally to being called that and his distress causes Justice to threaten her (and kill her if you do not stop him), since she is the cause of his emotion.
If you have rivalled Anders and challenge him after collecting the bomb making ingredients, he seems to waiver and doubt his intended course, at which point Justice assumes control. Again it would be the filtered emotions that Justice is responding to. You have been engaged in an angry confrontation with Anders and all Justice is aware of is Anders' distress for which Hawke is the cause.

So I think that at the end when Anders says that their actions cannot really be separated and that he hopes that when he dies Justice will rise again instead of Vengence, he is probably pretty close to the mark. It all depends on the new host, their view on life and their emotional response to it.

[Silentblaze]

/nvm

Modifié par Silentblaze, 24 octobre 2011 - 09:25 .

[Carmen_Willow]

slyborg wrote...

Shantale1 wrote...

Ok what I did not get about Anders and this merger was that Vengeance in Awakenings killed himself in front of the Widows house...so please enlighten me on how he merged with Anders?

He left the body  of the Warden he was possessing, he didn't kill himself. I don't think spirts can be killed, he would have just returned to the Fade. He probably merged with Anders after that.

Justice is not a demon as some people have stated in this thread, he is a spirit like the one that merged with Wynne. 

Demon is as demon does!  He can call himself a spirit or not, he ends up doing the Kaboom Kirkwalll Unibomber number!  He can call himself a cadillac; in my view, he'a a demon!  The knife definitely knew best.

[Carmen_Willow]

Heidenreich wrote...

Annnd now we're reduced to insulting people who might romance Anders! Because it can't just be a video game and we absolutely aren't allowed to do things in it that you wouldn't do! THEY MUST BE CRAZY IF THEY CONTINUE TO ROMANCE A GAME CHARACTER WITH ANOTHER ONE.

Seriously?

Seriously guys --

He blows up the chantry because it forces all mages to fight instead of yet one more time allow the Chantry to tell them what to do.

Killing Meredith only temporarily solves the problem in KIRKWALL and the point of the act is to START A WAR.

The question is no different then "Why didn't Meredith just kill Anders or put him into custody and make him tranquil ." Because she's crazy and she was going to use the Rite of Annulment no matter what. In fact Karras says as much when you click on him in the gallows in act three.

Even if he didn't blow up the chantry, Meredith would have found a reason to call on the Rite. The only problem is, being that she was The Knight Commander of the Kirkwall Circle, no one would have questioned her decision. Not The Divine, Not Elthina, Not all of Thedas. There would have been no war, because no one would take a second look at it.

By blowing up the Chantry, it forced Meredith to call the Rite for a crime someone OTHER then the Circle committed. Thus, it makes her look insane. Because she is insane. Not only does she call the Rite for something someone outside the circle does, but then she raises half of the city to accomplish it.

So now not only is she insane, but she's blood-thirsty. This will cause ALL OF THEDAS to second guess Meredith's actions, and force Mages to take a stand for themselves rather then just continue to be herded like sheep.

Which, no matter what side you take - Varric tells us this in the pro-log. That Due to the actions of Hawke in Kirkwall all of the rest of the Circles in Thedas rise up against the Chantry. Because The Knight-Commander is Appointed by the Chantry. And if they were so very negligent as to appoint a crazy woman to a position that's supposed to be PROTECTING Mages, then what other egregious Errors are they over looking/ignoring?


*huff*

Remember, the Circle was created to give mages a SAFE place to learn to control their powers among their own kind. In the centuries since its creation it's gone from a school to a prison, and big chunks of Templars abuse the power granted to them by the chantry.

In the words of Cullen "A Templars job is to protect mages."

That's right Cullen. Protect. Not Imprison or strip of basic human rights or mentally and sexually abuse. Which for some reason people don't grasp when they're all "BUT THE TEMPLARS ARE RIGHT, MAGES ARE DANGEROUS."

You're right, they are dangerous. Which is why they suggested they start the circle in the first place. But what the circle all over Thedas was intended to be, and what it has become, are two wildly different things. And its not good.

*flail* I could rant for ages, but you're not really here to have a discussion. You're here to bait. And I've already nibbled enough.

And I agree with you wholeheartedly and would fight for mage freedom, right up to the point where we start blowing up buildings with ordinary people in them to get the attention of Thedas! Bombs do not discriminate! 

But you're right, let's not rant about it.  Everyone's pretty much chosen their side in this issue.  Don't think anyone's going to change their mind at this point.