296 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Mr.House wrote...

If you watch Redemption, Tallis does seem to get in trouble with the Qunari. She was demoted once from Tallis and given back that title at the start of the series. Tallis is not doing this just for the Qunari, she is doing it fort he innocents. Sure they innocents might be Qunari but why should a farmer be punished for say a group of Qunari warriors going to a village to convert Chantry people?

Also not all Qunari will kill a Bas. Hawke and the Warden proved them self to two Qunari, Sten andt he Arishok. Only reason why the Arishok fights Hawke is if Hawke refuses to let Izzy go or the Qun demands he must do so, but she still respects Hawke and considers her Basalit-an. Sten considers the Warden Kadan. I don't always agree with the Qunari, but I agree with Tallis mission and have no issue helping her. Innocents should not die because of the actions of others and a zealot religion.

You know what the funny things are?

1) One zealot religion was prepared to slaughter people from another zealot religion.
2) The Chantry is no different from the Qunari if you think about it. They kill anyone who doesn't believe in their religion, both treat mages horribly (though the Qunari do honor their mages), etc. etc.

For number 2 both cultures are incredibly similar with how they convert people.

[TobiTobsen]

Mr.House wrote...

If you watch Redemption, Tallis does
seem to get in trouble with the Qunari. She was demoted once from Tallis
and given back that title at the start of the series. Tallis is not
doing this just for the Qunari, she is doing it fort he innocents. Sure
they innocents might be Qunari but why should a farmer be punished for
say a group of Qunari warriors going to a village to convert Chantry
people?

Also not all Qunari will kill a Bas. Hawke and the
Warden proved them self to two Qunari, Sten andt he Arishok. Only reason
why the Arishok fights Hawke is if Hawke refuses to let Izzy go or the
Qun demands he must do so, but she still respects Hawke and considers
her Basalit-an. Sten considers the Warden Kadan. I don't always agree
with the Qunari, but I agree with Tallis mission and have no issue
helping her. Innocents should not die because of the actions of others
and a zealot religion.

Sten and the Arishok will still kill you on the battlefield. Sten just tells you that he won't actively search for you.

And those "innocents" will cause much harm to "innocents" on the human side as soon as the Qunari will start another try to conquer Thedas. Even if the Qunari won't murder them when they invade, it's still "convert, get brainwashed or die" after that.

No matter what you do, both options suck.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 12 octobre 2011 - 09:21 .

[Fenris_13]

I must say, I just loved Tallis jealous expression in the ending of MotA when you had your LI with you. Priceless.

Aww, she looks to be so alone. Don't worry Tallis! I'll make a new Hawke that has you as a LI! Just you wait!

[jamesp81]

Wulfram wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But I do wonder what Qunari cities and villages operate like. I think everyone has it in their heads "They're monstrous people!", but Sten's comments and Tallis' seem to point to their lives being nice.

To loyalists, it might not be too bad.  Particularly if you don't know what you're missing.

But unless people on Thedas are totally different from people on earth, I can't see it being anything except monstrous.  People don't just all turn into happy slaves of the state because of a few bits of bogus philosophy.

Otherwise, communism would have worked.

^^this x1000, or however many you'd like.

The Qun is an ugly thing, even for Thedas.

[Sabariel]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

I am confused as to how Tallis can be Qunari. I thought Qunari women aren't allowed to fight? Or... does Tallis not count as a woman to them because she's not a kossith?

There is a codex entry about the Ben-Hassrath. They recruit both men and women of all races in the Qun, because people seem to trust their own gender/race more and therefore react better on indoctrination efforts.

Bloody hell. I combed through the Codex three times and didn't find anything. Thanks XD;

[Huntress]

Mr.House wrote...

Qunari respect Saarabas. I doubt Templars respect mages.

Qunari FEAR Saarabas thats why they put them in chains, templars fears and condemn anyone who can challenge their power. Been mages or not.
Exemple: Aveline not leaving the Guard-capt position was been harrassed by a templar and the templars allows the unrest to remove aveline from the guards. the templars are not protectors any longer they are becoming more Tyrannical.

Oh I just read about the qunari religion enforcers, yes everyone is innocent *IF* is nOT a mage..  mages will never be innocent of .. well .. anything. Mages are guilty since birth.<_<

Modifié par Huntress, 13 octobre 2011 - 12:53 .

[Myusha]

Qunari are the epitome of the Qun, and their struggle.

[Breaker35]

I certainly want to see Tallis again, ( in a future DLC, but this time as a permanent companion ), because to me she looked like an interresting character, besides, in Mark Of The Assassin, Tallis hinted on that Hawke might see her again, which leads me to wonder, why have Tallis say that at the end of the dlc, if: 1. Tallis will only be in Mark Of The Assassin, and 2. ......it's hinted that Tallis "MIGHT" become a permanent companionin a future DLC, ( and ofcourse, what about the kiss with Tallis and female/male Hawke at the end of the DLC ), does the kiss lead to anything between Hawke and Tallis, 'cause to me it doesn't seem fair to me that she'll only be in Mark Of The Assassin, when you consider what she said in the end of the DLC, and the kiss.


......Well, as I mentioned earlier, I would love to have Tallis back as a permanent companion in a future DLC, maybe with a HUGE quest that leads to her becoming a permanent companion, maybe a quest to rescue her, or maybe a quest where she wants you to help her with a personal quest before she agrees to become a permanent companion, ( and as a LI too ofcourse ), well, at least, that is what I want, since it's not certain that there'll be any more companion DLC's for DA2, then at least I'll get 1 of my wishes, that at least there'll be one last companion DLC before moving on to something else, because personally, I LOVED Tallis, and would love to see more of her.

Ps! Sorry if I'm not making much sense, ( lol, if any, :S )

Modifié par Breaker35, 13 octobre 2011 - 02:27 .

[TEWR]

Huntress wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Qunari respect Saarabas. I doubt Templars respect mages.

Qunari FEAR Saarabas thats why they put them in chains, templars fears and condemn anyone who can challenge their power. Been mages or not.
Exemple: Aveline not leaving the Guard-capt position was been harrassed by a templar and the templars allows the unrest to remove aveline from the guards. the templars are not protectors any longer they are becoming more Tyrannical.

Oh I just read about the qunari religion enforcers, yes everyone is innocent *IF* is nOT a mage..  mages will never be innocent of .. well .. anything. Mages are guilty since birth.<_<

No. They do not fear the Saarebas. They fear the magic the Saarebas wields. Fearing magic is not the same thing as fearing the mage.



The Qun teaches that all living things have a place and a purpose, and only when they are in the correct place and in control of their own self may a being attain balance. When balance is lost, suffering follows. Mastery of the self is, therefore, the first and greatest duty.

Those born with magic are at a terrible disadvantage, for demons can always rob them of their self. Because of this, the Qunari name them saarebas, meaning "dangerous thing", and treat them with the utmost caution. Saarebas must be carefully controlled by someone else, an arvaarad, "one who holds back evil", because they cannot truly control themselves. The evil is not the mage, but the loss of the mage, the loss of the mage’s self, and the suffering that inevitably follows.

The Qunari pity and honor the saarebas, for striving while under constant threat from within is truly selfless, which is the highest virtue of the Qun.

—From the writings of the seer of Kont-aar, 8:41 Blessed

[randomcheeses]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Huntress wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Qunari respect Saarabas. I doubt Templars respect mages.

Qunari FEAR Saarabas thats why they put them in chains, templars fears and condemn anyone who can challenge their power. Been mages or not.
Exemple: Aveline not leaving the Guard-capt position was been harrassed by a templar and the templars allows the unrest to remove aveline from the guards. the templars are not protectors any longer they are becoming more Tyrannical.

Oh I just read about the qunari religion enforcers, yes everyone is innocent *IF* is nOT a mage..  mages will never be innocent of .. well .. anything. Mages are guilty since birth.<_<

No. They do not fear the Saarebas. They fear the magic the Saarebas wields. Fearing magic is not the same thing as fearing the mage.



The Qun teaches that all living things have a place and a purpose, and only when they are in the correct place and in control of their own self may a being attain balance. When balance is lost, suffering follows. Mastery of the self is, therefore, the first and greatest duty.

Those born with magic are at a terrible disadvantage, for demons can always rob them of their self. Because of this, the Qunari name them saarebas, meaning "dangerous thing", and treat them with the utmost caution. Saarebas must be carefully controlled by someone else, an arvaarad, "one who holds back evil", because they cannot truly control themselves. The evil is not the mage, but the loss of the mage, the loss of the mage’s self, and the suffering that inevitably follows.

The Qunari pity and honor the saarebas, for striving while under constant threat from within is truly selfless, which is the highest virtue of the Qun.

—From the writings of the seer of Kont-aar, 8:41 Blessed

Right. Clearly that justifies sewing someone's eyelids and mouth shut and collaring them like an animal. Yep. Respect

[ReiSilver]

yeah you can say the Qunari respect and honour their mages all you want, just like how some people will say the Circle is there to protect mages from the outside world. Actions speak louder then words and collaring someone, sewing their mouths closed and trying to kill any mage who talks to you speaks pretty darn LOUD.
On top of that; in a perfect world the circle system wouldn't have Templars like those who abuse mages in thedas, they're -supposed- to help and protect mages. But dehumanising people and putting people in charge of those they see as 'other' is a recipe for abuse, no matter what philosophy or religion is most prevalent. I'd highly doubt that there has never been an avaaraad who took advantage of someone they had total and complete control over whose title translates to 'dangerous thing.' and that's on top of the mutilation and lack of any autonomy.

[TheGunslinger]

Tallis is awesome! I finished MotA a few hours ago and I loved it. She'd probably play a part in future DA games, considering that Varric said we are sure to see her again at the end. She's my favourite Qunari haha.

Also, what do you guys think the Fex are if you still remember? Are there any hints or something I missed out on?

[TEWR]

ReiSilver wrote...

yeah you can say the Qunari respect and honour their mages all you want, just like how some people will say the Circle is there to protect mages from the outside world. Actions speak louder then words and collaring someone, sewing their mouths closed and trying to kill any mage who talks to you speaks pretty darn LOUD.

Well the Arishok also tells Hawke of his respect for Saarebas, so I think it's pretty clear that they do respect mages, even if they treat them in abhorrent ways.

randomcheeses wrote...

Right. Clearly that justifies sewing someone's eyelids and mouth shut and collaring them like an animal. Yep. Respect

I don't defend how they treat their mages, but it's a fact that they do consider them a living embodiment of the Qun and respect them for that. Yes they treat their mages in abhorrent ways and there's no excuse for doing so, but the respect is there. The respect of the Saarebas and the collaring of the mages are two different things. If the Qunari were to not do what they do to their mages, they would still respect them for being a living embodiment of the Qun.

They'd probably still call them Saarebas, but that's part of Qunari society. Everyone has a role they fit into best and identifies by that title.

Also, their eyelids don't get sewn shut. Mouth yes, but not eyelids.

I wonder though.... in Qunari society if people choose what to do, do the Saarebas volunteer to be collared and whatnot when they're discovered to be mages, thus accepting their new role? Or do the Qunari just drag them and do it forcefully? Given their contentment to it, I would think they volunteer for it and accept it.

And before anyone starts saying "they're brainwashed into not being able to believe anything else!", the Chantry does the same thing. They call Exalted Marches on heathens and if they can't convert someone willingly they do so by sword (see the Llomerryn Accords where after the Qunari broke the Accords, the Chantry then violated the treaty)

So yea, people in Andrastian society are also brainwashed, especially since the Chantry just wants -- imo -- political influence all over the world and to subjugate mages everywhere and couldn't care less about the Maker despite what they preach.

You can live or you can die. That's called coercion, y'know. --- Cliff Fittir

[TEWR]

Wulfram wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But I do wonder what Qunari cities and villages operate like. I think everyone has it in their heads "They're monstrous people!", but Sten's comments and Tallis' seem to point to their lives being nice.

To loyalists, it might not be too bad.  Particularly if you don't know what you're missing.

But unless people on Thedas are totally different from people on earth, I can't see it being anything except monstrous.  People don't just all turn into happy slaves of the state because of a few bits of bogus philosophy.

Otherwise, communism would have worked.

Except we do know that there are Qunari out there who know what life outside of Qunari society is like, and I imagine they send reports secretly to the cities and villages in Qunari society. Or they're just being sleeper cells, which is more likely.

Those Qunari have families and friends, and though some have even gone Tal-Vashoth many are still Qunari. I wonder if there are any horned Kossith agents pretending to be Tal-Vashoth but are still Qunari out there in those sleeper cells.

[Chewin]

+1 support for Tallis.

Because there's always room for one more cute, amiable, knifetastic elf.

[ReiSilver]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

ReiSilver wrote...

yeah you can say the Qunari respect and honour their mages all you want, just like how some people will say the Circle is there to protect mages from the outside world. Actions speak louder then words and collaring someone, sewing their mouths closed and trying to kill any mage who talks to you speaks pretty darn LOUD.

Well the Arishok also tells Hawke of his respect for Saarebas, so I think it's pretty clear that they do respect mages, even if they treat them in abhorrent ways.

*snip*

Arishok never mentioned that he knew my Hawke was a mage, it seemed more of an oversight for the game to me like how Cullen will still get the 'Mages aren't people' line to Hawke who just flung magic around to save his life.
once again for me actions>words, you can't respect someone if you don't trust them to make their own descisions which the qunari don't trust for their mages as evidenced in Sheparding wolves.
They may put them on a pedistal, or admire them from a philosophical viewpoint. But that's not respect, not respect you have for a fellow sentient being.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I wonder though.... in Qunari society if people choose what to do, do the Saarebas volunteer to be collared and whatnot when they're discovered to be mages, thus accepting their new role? Or do the Qunari just drag them and do it forcefully? Given their contentment to it, I would think they volunteer for it and accept it.

*snip*

You can live or you can die. That's called coercion, y'know. --- Cliff Fittir

I find it really funny using that quote since that's the exact 'freedom' the Arishok describes with the Qun: You do your role that someone else chose for you or you die.
Choosing to do something with a gun to your head is not a choice.
It's debatable how much qunari children are indoctrinated into the belief system and how early, but those that would fight against it are likely killed and there would still be enough that accept it quietly, like how people used to "accept" foot binding or how there are circle mages who 'accept' tranquility.
Or how Oranna will say of being a slave to the magisters "Everything was fine untill today!" to which Fenris will reply "It wasn't, you just didn't know any better." which would apply pretty well to any mage unfortunate enough to be born under the Qun.

[Fenris_13]

Chewin3 wrote...

+1 support for Tallis.

Because there's always room for one more cute, amiable, knifetastic elf.

Indeed.

[TEWR]

Arishok never mentioned that he knew my Hawke was a mage, it seemed more of an oversight for the game to me like how Cullen will still get the 'Mages aren't people' line to Hawke who just flung magic around to save his life.

once again for me actions>words, you can't respect someone if you don't trust them to make their own descisions which the qunari don't trust for their mages as evidenced in Sheparding wolves.
They may put them on a pedistal, or admire them from a philosophical viewpoint. But that's not respect, not respect you have for a fellow sentient being.

I was talking about his respect for Ketojan.

The Qunari define things like "fight", "do battle", "honor", and "respect" very differently and give them various meanings. Remember how Alistair said the Qunari sense of honor is a bit hard to grasp? Same thing here.

Just because the Qunari respect the Saarebas differently from how we define respect doesn't make them wrong.

I find it really funny using that quote since that's the exact 'freedom' the Arishok describes with the Qun: You do your role that someone else chose for you or you die.

Oh I know. I've used it for the Qunari before too. I use that quote a lot because it applies so well to the Qunari way of converting people that aren't true willing converts like Saemus or the elves.

It's debatable how much qunari children are indoctrinated into the belief system and how early, but those that would fight against it are likely killed and there would still be enough that accept it quietly, like how people used to "accept" foot binding or how there are circle mages who 'accept' tranquility.
Or how Oranna will say of being a slave to the magisters "Everything was fine untill today!" to which Fenris will reply "It wasn't, you just didn't know any better." which would apply pretty well to any mage unfortunate enough to be born under the Qun.

Still, we only know a small amount of Qunari culture. how they actually operate and how they live with all of those strict rules is unknown to us.

On the outside it seems abhorrent, but perhaps the inside is different. And that's primarily what Tallis and Sten talked about.

At least Tallis was able to recognize the system isn't perfect, unlike other Qunari.

[randomcheeses]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...



Just because the Qunari respect the Saarebas differently from how we define respect doesn't make them wrong.

In this case, I'm pretty sure it does. As a rule, someone who chains you up and sews your lips together does not respect you and I'm baffled as to how anyone could honestly think otherwise. They fear you on a very deep level and justify themselves by insisting it's respect, when anyone who is not already brainwashed could easily point out that it is in fact torture.

Plus there's the fact that the word Saarebas means 'dangerous thing'. Not 'dangerous person', but 'dangerous thing'. classic dehumanizing tactic right there. If the Qunari won't even admit that mages are people how can you even argue that they respect them at all?

Btw, the codex entry is not proof. it just shows what colossal lies the Qunari tell themselves to justify their treatment of mages.

Tell me, if the Qunari were human or elven, instead of 7-foot-tall guys with horns,would you still take their logic at face-value? Say, oh I don't know, Merrill was caught by the Qunari  and had her lips stitched together and a collar put around her neck, would you be defending their treatment of her and insisting that they really respected her.

I doubt it very much.

[Ross42899]

I like Tallis. I hope she will return as a permant squadmate in DA3.

[RPGmom28]

I liked her a lot, and I'm a straight chick. I'm waiting for the opportunity to get to a runthrough of mine where Hawke isn't taken and can flirt without fear of repercussions so that I can see the dialogue. Since I ran through it with a girl that was into Anders, I was afraid to annoy him/break the romance by choosing the hearts. It was interesting to see someone with a completely different world view than we are used to seeing in an elf.

[TEWR]

randomcheeses wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Just because the Qunari respect the Saarebas differently from how we define respect doesn't make them wrong.

In this case, I'm pretty sure it does. As a rule, someone who chains you up and sews your lips together does not respect you and I'm baffled as to how anyone could honestly think otherwise. They fear you on a very deep level and justify themselves by insisting it's respect, when anyone who is not already brainwashed could easily point out that it is in fact torture.

Again, they don't fear the mage. They fear magic. There's a difference between the two. Magic is chaotic and to their belief draws its power from demons, and thus they fear magic. They don't fear the mage though.

The funny thing is that they think that nature can be controlled and become orderly when it is by its very nature chaotic (something Morrigan echoes).

Plus there's the fact that the word Saarebas means 'dangerous thing'. Not 'dangerous person', but 'dangerous thing'. classic dehumanizing tactic right there. If the Qunari won't even admit that mages are people how can you even argue that they respect them at all?

They also call outsiders to their religion "bas" because they see them as needing enlightenment.

Qunari logic and how they define their words is abnormal.

Btw, the codex entry is not proof. it just shows what colossal lies the Qunari tell themselves to justify their treatment of mages.

Tell me, if the Qunari were human or elven, instead of 7-foot-tall guys with horns,would you still take their logic at face-value? Say, oh I don't know, Merrill was caught by the Qunari  and had her lips stitched together and a collar put around her neck, would you be defending their treatment of her and insisting that they really respected her.

I doubt it very much.

I never once defended their treatment of mages. I've made it explicitly clear several times over in this thread alone that I find what they do to their mages to be abhorrent.

I'm simply saying that from the Qunari point of view that everyone respects the Saarebas because they embody the Qun. To quote a passage of the Qun that applies to what I'm trying to say.

Struggle is an illusion.
The tide rises, the tide falls.
There is nothing to struggle against.
Victory is in the Qun.

They believe that Saarebas struggle to be Qunari because of demons because that might make them turn into an Abomination, thus they lose their self and become a demon. In a warped sense of caring, what they do is out of wanting the Saarebas to be safe and thus they always honor them for their struggle. They struggle more than a non-mage Qunari would.

It's warped, twisted, and abhorrent and I don't approve of it. But this is how they view it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 octobre 2011 - 03:54 .

[Jilinna]

Definetly support Tallis!! I thought she was a great character and loved the jealous banter between my hawke, Anders and Tallis. I was really sad when Tallis left at the end, wish she was a permanent member.

Really hope she is a permanent member in DA3!

I was reading the previous posts in this thread and saw you can actually kiss Tallis! Now I need to make a Hawke just for her or play this DLC before I have romanced someone!
Out of curiosity has anyone not brought their LI and still gotten the kiss from Tallis at the end?

Modifié par Jilinna, 13 octobre 2011 - 04:17 .

[Mr.House]

[TEWR]

Jilinna wrote...

Definetly support Tallis!! I thought she was a great character and loved the jealous banter between my hawke, Anders and Tallis. I was really sad when Tallis left at the end, wish she was a permanent member.

Really hope she is a permanent member in DA3!

I was reading the previous posts in this thread and saw you can actually kiss Tallis! Now I need to make a Hawke just for her or play this DLC before I have romanced someone!
Out of curiosity has anyone not brought their LI and still gotten the kiss from Tallis at the end?

She won't kiss Hawke if the LI is present. She'll just say that she's jealous of the LI for being so lucky.

Seems she believes in choosing who she's with. And that's something the Qunari don't allow. Qunari are all about pedigree breeding and setting someone up with another person.