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[CrimsonZephyr]

The Sapien wrote...

I'm confused. I bought this DLC thinking I'd get a new companion for the rest of the game. Does she come back later or did I get tricked by the DLC description?

She's temporary - only for this DLC.

[TEWR]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Jilinna wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Thedas as in Andrastian Thedas. If the Qunari advance, if they become stronger, if they profit, it will be
to every other nation's extreme detriment. It is a zero sum game. Every gain by the Qunari is a loss for everyone else. The only way to win is to kill every Qunari. That means every elf, human, dwarf, and kossith who believes in the philosophy. Wipe them out, wipe their children out, wipe out anyone who evens quotes chapter and verse from their texts until no one alive remembers who they are or what they did.

The only way to deal with the Qunari is through iron and blood. Templars, blood mages, Orlais - they're small time compared to the evil of this civilization.

Going from feudalism to Orwellian communism is not a step in the right direction.

EDIT: This is my whole post this time, polished and everything, sorry again!

lol sounds like you sided with Petrice

I understand what your trying to say, that based on the Qun`s strict ideology & past actions, you can presumably argue if the Qun continued to spread then they would come and take over violently to establish the Qun as the dominant religon. So correct me if I am wrong you are suggesting Andrastians should strike first to secure their dominance?

But then wouldn't that make Andrastians no better than the Qunari? If you look at it from the perspective of one that follows the Qun, like Tallis, she says "Qunari don't understand why we act the way we do", wouldn't attempting to kill all Qunari justify their view that the Qun brings about the betterment of the whole while the Andrastians just bring about chaos and corruption to themselves?

I do not understand though why you would think the annilation of all people who follow the Qun, which is genocide, is entirly justifable. Tallis says "Not every Qunari is a soldier", "There are tens of thousands of farmers, artisans, craftsmen, people who have never hurt anyone, poeple whose only crime is living" & why do they deserve death as well? Based on the ideology of the Qun most Qunari who are born under the Qun have never known any other other religon or way of life outside of their own, and therefore I cannot understand the logic of killing people based on religon, who have had taken no part in the behaviour of fanatical Qunari.

& when you say "wipe out anyone who evens quotes chapter and verse from their texts until no one alive remembers who they are or what they did." umm wouldn't that mean you would have to kill anyone that has come into contact with the Qunari or remembers their religon, therefore killing Andrastians in the process? Isn't that counter productive, you would be potenitally harming those you wanted to save.

Also last time the Qunari fought Thedas to a standstill, who is to say if all of Thedas went to war with the Qunari again they would win? Thedas is already a mess with possible problems within Orlais, and mages & templars struggling for control and freedom. Thedas is in disarray and the Qunari consider themselves one piece of a whole who work together for a common purpose, and therfore Thedas wouldn't stand a chance against them unless they started working together as well.

Better to die fighting than to live on one's knees. Especially with the Qunari. The fact is, the Qun is like gangrene. You've got to eliminate it before it spreads.

*in Xanthos Aeducan voice set done by Fred Tatasciore*

Did you have to use such a disgusting analogy?

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Jilinna wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Thedas as in Andrastian Thedas. If the Qunari advance, if they become stronger, if they profit, it will be
to every other nation's extreme detriment. It is a zero sum game. Every gain by the Qunari is a loss for everyone else. The only way to win is to kill every Qunari. That means every elf, human, dwarf, and kossith who believes in the philosophy. Wipe them out, wipe their children out, wipe out anyone who evens quotes chapter and verse from their texts until no one alive remembers who they are or what they did.

The only way to deal with the Qunari is through iron and blood. Templars, blood mages, Orlais - they're small time compared to the evil of this civilization.

Going from feudalism to Orwellian communism is not a step in the right direction.

EDIT: This is my whole post this time, polished and everything, sorry again!

lol sounds like you sided with Petrice

I understand what your trying to say, that based on the Qun`s strict ideology & past actions, you can presumably argue if the Qun continued to spread then they would come and take over violently to establish the Qun as the dominant religon. So correct me if I am wrong you are suggesting Andrastians should strike first to secure their dominance?

But then wouldn't that make Andrastians no better than the Qunari? If you look at it from the perspective of one that follows the Qun, like Tallis, she says "Qunari don't understand why we act the way we do", wouldn't attempting to kill all Qunari justify their view that the Qun brings about the betterment of the whole while the Andrastians just bring about chaos and corruption to themselves?

I do not understand though why you would think the annilation of all people who follow the Qun, which is genocide, is entirly justifable. Tallis says "Not every Qunari is a soldier", "There are tens of thousands of farmers, artisans, craftsmen, people who have never hurt anyone, poeple whose only crime is living" & why do they deserve death as well? Based on the ideology of the Qun most Qunari who are born under the Qun have never known any other other religon or way of life outside of their own, and therefore I cannot understand the logic of killing people based on religon, who have had taken no part in the behaviour of fanatical Qunari.

& when you say "wipe out anyone who evens quotes chapter and verse from their texts until no one alive remembers who they are or what they did." umm wouldn't that mean you would have to kill anyone that has come into contact with the Qunari or remembers their religon, therefore killing Andrastians in the process? Isn't that counter productive, you would be potenitally harming those you wanted to save.

Also last time the Qunari fought Thedas to a standstill, who is to say if all of Thedas went to war with the Qunari again they would win? Thedas is already a mess with possible problems within Orlais, and mages & templars struggling for control and freedom. Thedas is in disarray and the Qunari consider themselves one piece of a whole who work together for a common purpose, and therfore Thedas wouldn't stand a chance against them unless they started working together as well.

Better to die fighting than to live on one's knees. Especially with the Qunari. The fact is, the Qun is like gangrene. You've got to eliminate it before it spreads.

*in Xanthos Aeducan voice set done by Fred Tatasciore*

Did you have to use such a disgusting analogy?

The glove fits. No one said it had to be a pretty glove.

I could say the Qunari are like the plague. Which would be just as applicable.

[The Sapien]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

The Sapien wrote...

I'm confused. I bought this DLC thinking I'd get a new companion for the rest of the game. Does she come back later or did I get tricked by the DLC description?

She's temporary - only for this DLC.

That was a cheap trick for those of us who have played ME2's two (yes, there were two) DLC's where new companion meant new companion.
Tomorrow, I'll be over it. I'll remember that at least they included dialogue for bringing other companions and lots of extra banter from their fantastic actors, all well worth the low price.
I'm just upset right now because I was just as excited about bringing her along for re-play value than the mission itself, but when it was over and she wasn't there... tonight, I'm just going to bed pissed off.

[Arquen]

If I remember correctly the Qun is based off of Plato's Republic. A society ruled by Philosophers (Ben-Hassrath and Ariqun) who enforce the "Laws" for the benefit of the whole.

The society is split into roles -- defined by what you are most talented at. If you are a soldier then you get thrown into the Antaam. If you are an artisan or a craftsman or a farmer you get put with the "providers." Plato cited that the Philosophers were the leaders, but they also went without. Meaning they basically lived with no extravagance or luxuries that are common to leaders/kings. Their only role is to serve the people (the Qun).

The inherent problem with this is what everyone argues. 1.) Flexibility -- there is NONE. Your either accepting of your role or your killed. 2.) Inherent hubris -- every person has an inherent need for free will and the ability to want choices. When there is no choice it is only a matter of time before the person fights against that. Though it seems Qunari alone are able to live without this inherent drive for self awareness and freedom. 3.) Leadership -- who rules the rulers? what basis do they have to decide the will of the whole, and why should the masses just blindly follow them on the "good faith" that the "will of the Qun" is always correct -- blind faith is simply.. blind.

Tallis says: "Doubt is the path one walks to reach faith. To leave the path is to embrace blindness and abandon hope." -- The Ben-Hassrath are the enforcers of the will of the Qun -- like priests. They are the one who basically control those Qunari and non-Qunari alike from deviating from the "will of the Qun." Yet, the irony here is that she mentions doubt -- doubt in what? Obviously you cannot have doubt in the Qun. Then again maybe she means doubt in one's circumstances. A non-Qunari would doubt themselves, and their role, and their existence. They would be looking for a better way, and that is the path to "faith" in something -- "faith" in the Qun. Still sounds like a lot of zealotry to me.

Also, Fenris says something that makes me go "seriously!" -- In regards to "were helping save innocent lives." He remarks "And how many 'innocents' have the Qunari slaughtered?" -- Honestly, it seems only NOW does Tallis care about these innocents. Mostly because they are Qunari, and although she states they are "people" it seems to me like the Qunari don't really care about people much. Especially those who aren't willing to submit to the Qun, but once you do "we protect our own," and that is that. Very black/white thinking, and Fenris has a point. Only NOW do you care? What about all the innocent people Qunari slaughter who don't agree or convert? Don't seem to give a rats arse about them.

One of the reasons I do like Tallis -- she has this conflicted nature. Very un-Qunari like.

Modifié par Arquen, 18 octobre 2011 - 08:09 .

[TEWR]

The Sapien wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

The Sapien wrote...

I'm confused. I bought this DLC thinking I'd get a new companion for the rest of the game. Does she come back later or did I get tricked by the DLC description?

She's temporary - only for this DLC.

That was a cheap trick for those of us who have played ME2's two (yes, there were two) DLC's where new companion meant new companion.
Tomorrow, I'll be over it. I'll remember that at least they included dialogue for bringing other companions and lots of extra banter from their fantastic actors, all well worth the low price.
I'm just upset right now because I was just as excited about bringing her along for re-play value than the mission itself, but when it was over and she wasn't there... tonight, I'm just going to bed pissed off.

Not really a cheap trick considering they had told the people on the forums she was only a temporary companion for a few weeks now.

[The Sapien]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Sapien wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

The Sapien wrote...

I'm confused. I bought this DLC thinking I'd get a new companion for the rest of the game. Does she come back later or did I get tricked by the DLC description?

She's temporary - only for this DLC.

That was a cheap trick for those of us who have played ME2's two (yes, there were two) DLC's where new companion meant new companion.
Tomorrow, I'll be over it. I'll remember that at least they included dialogue for bringing other companions and lots of extra banter from their fantastic actors, all well worth the low price.
I'm just upset right now because I was just as excited about bringing her along for re-play value than the mission itself, but when it was over and she wasn't there... tonight, I'm just going to bed pissed off.

Not really a cheap trick considering they had told the people on the forums she was only a temporary companion for a few weeks now.

It's the next day, and I'm feeling rational now. That said...
Are you serious!?!?! Oh, they mentioned it in some forum so it's okay. Funny, I actually returned to these forums looking for it yesterday because I was confused after not seeing her in my companion selection but didn't find that one. Sure, I was tired and probably overlooked some obvious thread, but still, are you serious? You're basically saying that I should've known not to trust their website description and researched the forums to make sure it wasn't a lie before making any purchase.
Oh, wait, you're right!! My bad. Won't happen again.

[Xilizhra]

Tallis proves it once and for all: I don't like qunari. I didn't like Sten, I didn't like the Arishok, and I don't like Tallis. If she wasn't part of the secret police for a murderously expansionist regime whose treatment of mages makes Andrastian Circles look like Tevinter, I probably would, but as it stands, that's a bit of a dealbreaker. It doesn't help that I never got a chance to ask her what she thought about the Saarebas issue, and whether she'd even try to justify it.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Seriously, Tallis can go die. I've had enough of insufferable Qunari. I spent half the time watching episode 2 of Redemption wanting to punch her - repeatedly, in the face, with brass knuckles.

[TEWR]

I don't know. I can't hate all Qunari for the same reason I can't hate all Muslims. Both religions are abhorrent, but that's no reason for me to hate all Muslim people. Not all of them are terrorists.

Plus, not only does Tallis have doubts in the Qunari way of life but she admits that it could definitely be better and doesn't deny that saying "it could be better" is an understatement. Sten -- for all of his brainwashing that he grew up with -- says his views have changed and that he doesn't want to be alive when the Qunari do invade again (if you give him his sword before a certain discussion).

Those two alone may rise to the head honcho positions of their sections of the Triumvirate and change it, especially if Sten does what the Tevinter soldiers did when the Ben-Hassrath "re-educate" him.

Hell, they may even lead a revolution within the Qunari! That would be badass.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 octobre 2011 - 06:03 .

[Zjarcal]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Seriously, Tallis can go die. I've had enough of insufferable Qunari. I spent half the time watching episode 2 of Redemption wanting to punch her - repeatedly, in the face, with brass knuckles.

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't know. I can't hate all Qunari for the same reason I can't hate all Muslims. Both religions are abhorrent, but that's no reason for me to hate all Muslim people. Not all of them are terrorists.

Plus, not only does Tallis have doubts in the Qunari way of life but she admits that it could definitely be better and doesn't deny that saying "it could be better" is an understatement. Sten -- for all of his brainwashing that he grew up with -- says his views have changed and that he doesn't want to be alive when the Qunari do invade again (if you give him his sword before a certain discussion).

Those two alone may rise to the head honcho positions of the Triumvirate and change it, especially if Sten does what the Tevinter soldiers did when the Ben-Hassrath "re-educate" him.

I honestly don't give a damn that she doubts. THat she enforces their will is enough. She serves them, ergo she should die. Painfully, preferably something graphic, like beheading, having that tongue of her's cut out, being flayed alive, crushed to death, whipped, shot with a hail of arrows, clubbed, stabbed, slashed, whipped, and what have you. You don't show them mercy because they would shw you none. This is a struggle where to win is to live, to lose is to die.

[Xilizhra]

I don't know. I can't hate all Qunari for the same reason I can't hate all Muslims. Both religions are abhorrent, but that's no reason for me to hate all Muslim people. Not all of them are terrorists.

Islam doesn't have that hivemind thing going.

Plus, not only does Tallis have doubts in the Qunari way of life but she admits that it could definitely be better and doesn't deny that saying "it could be better" is an understatement. Sten -- for all of his brainwashing that he grew up with -- says his views have changed and that he doesn't want to be alive when the Qunari do invade again (if you give him his sword before a certain discussion).

She was very, very ill-served by being DLC. She should have been a full companion; in fact, I'd replace Isabela with her; Tallis would tie into the qunari plot much more gracefully. Of course, that'd mean that both female LIs were elves, which could lead to Merrill's elimination, and that would serve no one, but still, a DLC was much too little time to spend with her. I saw that she had doubts, but I don't really care; the vast majority of people have doubts. Hell, Meredith has a line in the middle of the final battle where she expresses doubt. What's important is what she does, which is screw up Thedas' efforts to defend itself from the qunari threat. Yes, Prosper was a dick and it was going to be put to malign use, but the whole operation sat ill with me.

Those two alone may rise to the head honcho positions of the Triumvirate and change it, especially if Sten does what the Tevinter soldiers did when the Ben-Hassrath "re-educate" him.

I don't believe Sten possesses that much capacity for independent thought. I doubt he'd be able to fake believing in the Qun if he stopped doing so.

[TEWR]

I was hoping to edit this in before I got quoted, but I failed:

Hell, they may even lead a revolution/civil war within the Qunari! That would be badass.

Or perhaps lead a split from the violent Qunari and instead have their own Qunari life, with a few tweaks (Saarebas are treated better, Tal-Vashoth like Salit are the only ones that are hunted, and no invasions unless legitimately provoked).

[Xilizhra]

Zjarcal wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Seriously, Tallis can go die. I've had enough of insufferable Qunari. I spent half the time watching episode 2 of Redemption wanting to punch her - repeatedly, in the face, with brass knuckles.

As a rule, I don't advocate hatred. I believe it's counterproductive and draining. However, in some cases it's better than indifference, and the qunari are one of those cases.

Or perhaps lead a split from the violent Qunari and instead have their own Qunari life, with a few tweaks (Saarebas are treated better, Tal-Vashoth like Salit are the only ones that are hunted, and no invasions unless legitimately provoked).

So, nothing at all like the Qun, you mean?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 19 octobre 2011 - 06:08 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I was hoping to edit this in before I got quoted, but I failed:

Hell, they may even lead a revolution/civil war within the Qunari! That would be badass.

Or perhaps lead a split from the violent Qunari and instead have their own Qunari life, with a few tweaks (Saarebas are treated better, Tal-Vashoth like Salit are the only ones that are hunted, and no invasions unless legitimately provoked).

That's a foolish and idealistic notion. The only way Thedas will ever be able to accept the Qunari is if they accept their corpses - salvation lies in a mountain of the Qunari dead. They will never change, and it is more prudent to assume that they will not. Therefore, killing any competent Qunari one sees should be of the highest priority.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 19 octobre 2011 - 06:12 .

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't know. I can't hate all Qunari for the same reason I can't hate all Muslims. Both religions are abhorrent, but that's no reason for me to hate all Muslim people. Not all of them are terrorists.

Islam doesn't have that hivemind thing going.

I think "hivemind" is an overstatement, but I don't know. I'm currently (as in right now ) reading up on Emile Durkheim's comments on the "collective consciousness". Unless I'm misunderstanding his comments, it seems that just about any society can fall under the category of collective consciousness.

Plus, not only does Tallis have doubts in the Qunari way of life but she admits that it could definitely be better and doesn't deny that saying "it could be better" is an understatement. Sten -- for all of his brainwashing that he grew up with -- says his views have changed and that he doesn't want to be alive when the Qunari do invade again (if you give him his sword before a certain discussion).

She was very, very ill-served by being DLC. She should have been a full companion; in fact, I'd replace Isabela with her; Tallis would tie into the qunari plot much more gracefully. Of course, that'd mean that both female LIs were elves, which could lead to Merrill's elimination, and that would serve no one, but still, a DLC was much too little time to spend with her. I saw that she had doubts, but I don't really care; the vast majority of people have doubts. Hell, Meredith has a line in the middle of the final battle where she expresses doubt. What's important is what she does, which is screw up Thedas' efforts to defend itself from the qunari threat. Yes, Prosper was a dick and it was going to be put to malign use, but the whole operation sat ill with me.

Perhaps. I was fine with it, but a bit more screen time would've done her some more justice I guess. And I certainly wouldn't complain about having more Tallis! 
 
Does anything about her change depending on the Act one does MotA in?

Those two alone may rise to the head honcho positions of the Triumvirate and change it, especially if Sten does what the Tevinter soldiers did when the Ben-Hassrath "re-educate" him.

I don't believe Sten possesses that much capacity for independent thought. I doubt he'd be able to fake believing in the Qun if he stopped doing so.

Well, we'll just have to wait and see

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Seriously, Tallis can go die. I've had enough of insufferable Qunari. I spent half the time watching episode 2 of Redemption wanting to punch her - repeatedly, in the face, with brass knuckles.

* snip - Haters gonna hate - snip*

As a rule, I don't advocate hatred. I believe it's counterproductive and draining. However, in some cases it's better than indifference, and the qunari are one of those cases.

Or perhaps lead a split from the violent Qunari and instead have their own Qunari life, with a few tweaks (Saarebas are treated better, Tal-Vashoth like Salit are the only ones that are hunted, and no invasions unless legitimately provoked).

So, nothing at all like the Qun, you mean?

 Well, everything else would be the same. Whatever role you're best suited for is your role for life, but if someone leaves the Qun (for say the reasoning of "I'm tired of my role. I want something else") they won't be hunted unless they steal Qunari secrets and become legitimate traitors to the state (like how America would execute someone selling government secrets to the enemy).

[Xilizhra]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I was hoping to edit this in before I got quoted, but I failed:

Hell, they may even lead a revolution/civil war within the Qunari! That would be badass.

Or perhaps lead a split from the violent Qunari and instead have their own Qunari life, with a few tweaks (Saarebas are treated better, Tal-Vashoth like Salit are the only ones that are hunted, and no invasions unless legitimately provoked).

That's a foolish and idealistic notion. The only way Thedas will ever be able to accept the Qunari is if they accept their corpses - salvation lies in a mountain of the Qunari dead. They will never change, and it is more prudent to assume that they will not. Therefore, killing any competent Qunari one sees should be of the highest priority.

To a point. I didn't side with Petrice because I wanted the qunari gone, and provoking a mini-war seemed to be a very poor way to go about it. And... Tallis might, I suppose, be of use in the future, if she remembers that I, as a basalit-an (and mage of all people) helped her before. It could become useful in future dealings with the qunari. But the loss of that scroll is... irksome.

they won't be hunted unless they steal Qunari secrets and become legitimate traitors to the state (like how America would execute someone selling government secrets to the enemy).

Sometimes, treason is the only moral option. I don't believe Salit was in the wrong, except in his choice of customers; I have no doubt Tallis was right about Prosper causing a great deal of suffering if he got the scroll, but I support Salit in principle.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 19 octobre 2011 - 06:17 .

[TEWR]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I was hoping to edit this in before I got quoted, but I failed:

Hell, they may even lead a revolution/civil war within the Qunari! That would be badass.

Or perhaps lead a split from the violent Qunari and instead have their own Qunari life, with a few tweaks (Saarebas are treated better, Tal-Vashoth like Salit are the only ones that are hunted, and no invasions unless legitimately provoked).

That's a foolish and idealistic notion. The only way Thedas will ever be able to accept the Qunari is if they accept their corpses - salvation lies in a mountain of the Qunari dead. They will never change, and it is more prudent to assume that they will not. Therefore, killing any competent Qunari one sees should be of the highest priority.

You say idealistic and foolish, I say badass and likely considering Sten can respect a Mage Warden, Morrigan, and Wynne and considering Sten tries really hard to understand what the Tal-Vashoth want. 

[TEWR]

Sometimes, treason is the only moral option. I don't believe Salit was in the wrong, except in his choice of customers; I have no doubt Tallis was right about Prosper causing a great deal of suffering if he got the scroll, but I support Salit in principle.

So if you were a Fereldan and Salit gave Prosper the plans for blackpowder, you would say that's a good thing? For the Orlesians who are planning on invading your country again to be able to blast your countrymen away with cannons?

Treason leads to suffering more often than not. If I remember my history right, we had defectors working on the atom bomb, and that work led to the deaths of many Japanese people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

While there was justification in the fact that it was a race against the Germans to create a weapon that was devastating, it still led to suffering.

That's assuming I remember my 20th century history on the development of the atom bomb correctly. The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bit I know is true since that's plainly obvious, but it's the defectors bit I'm unsure of. I haven't brushed up on my history for some time now.

If I'm wrong though, I'd appreciate someone telling me what the history actually was, because history is my favorite subject and I hate getting it wrong.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 octobre 2011 - 06:30 .

[Xilizhra]

So if you were a Fereldan and Salit gave Prosper the plans for blackpowder, you would say that's a good thing? For the Orlesians who are planning on invading your country again to be able to blast your countrymen away with cannons?

Well... that ties into his not having a great customer. I wasn't unhappy, all in all, to stop Prosper; Orlais is nearly as much an enemy as the qunari, after all. But I'm very annoyed that I had to let that scroll slip out of my grasp.

Treason leads to suffering more often than not. If I remember my history right, we had defectors working on the atom bomb, and that work led to the deaths of many Japanese people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The qunari were the ones who started the suffering. It's entirely possible that more will be necessary to prevent the qunari from harming anyone else. It's unfortunate, but acceptable.

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sometimes, treason is the only moral option. I don't believe Salit was in the wrong, except in his choice of customers; I have no doubt Tallis was right about Prosper causing a great deal of suffering if he got the scroll, but I support Salit in principle.

So if you were a Fereldan and Salit gave Prosper the plans for blackpowder, you would say that's a good thing? For the Orlesians who are planning on invading your country again to be able to blast your countrymen away with cannons?

Treason leads to suffering more often than not. If I remember my history right, we had defectors working on the atom bomb, and that work led to the deaths of many Japanese people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

While there was justification in the fact that it was a race against the Germans to create a weapon that was devastating, it still led to suffering.

That's assuming I remember my 20th century history on the development of the atom bomb correctly. The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bit I know is true since that's plainly obvious, but it's the defectors bit I'm unsure of. I haven't brushed up on my history for some time now.

If I'm wrong though, I'd appreciate someone telling me what the history actually was, because history is my favorite subject and I hate getting it wrong.

If the Orlesians obtain blackpowder, because of how much information is freely exchanged by the nations of Thedas - especially when compared to the Qunari - the secret would likely reach Ferelden. And who gives a damn whether Salit betrayed the Qun? It's the Qun! Better that he betray them so that more die.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

So if you were a Fereldan and Salit gave Prosper the plans for blackpowder, you would say that's a good thing? For the Orlesians who are planning on invading your country again to be able to blast your countrymen away with cannons?

Well... that ties into his not having a great customer. I wasn't unhappy, all in all, to stop Prosper; Orlais is nearly as much an enemy as the qunari, after all. But I'm very annoyed that I had to let that scroll slip out of my grasp.

I agree that the ending for anti-Qunari Hawkes was beyond horrendous. That's been the biggest complaint about DAII and Bioware has yet to address his laziness and reactiveness.

Treason leads to suffering more often than not. If I remember my history right, we had defectors working on the atom bomb, and that work led to the deaths of many Japanese people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The qunari were the ones who started the suffering. It's entirely possible that more will be necessary to prevent the qunari from harming anyone else. It's unfortunate, but acceptable.

This is why I hate war. It's ugly and it's hell. Sometimes it's necessary, but it's always ugly. I'm sure the Qunari would probably agree considering they ended the wars because of the death toll that was racking up against the Rivaini populus. The wars probably wouldn't have lasted much longer anyway considering Thedas was near the point of bankruptcy.

Personally, however "necessary" something might be, I'd never see it as acceptable. Death is never acceptable to me. If that makes any sense.

The Qunari are an enigma. Based on what we've seen (which is only the military branch and one Ben-Hassrath), they seem like fanatical monstrous zealots (though Tallis claims otherwise). But I'm curious as to what their life is actually like inside places like Qunandar.

If the Orlesians obtain blackpowder, because of how much information is freely exchanged by the nations of Thedas - especially when compared to the Qunari - the secret would likely reach Ferelden. And who gives a damn whether Salit betrayed the Qun? It's the Qun! Better that he betray them so that more die.

I doubt Ferelden would get their hands on it. The Orlesians would probably keep it all to themselves.

Though Ferelden and Orzammar do have lyrium explosives... so I guess the playing field would be even.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 octobre 2011 - 06:48 .

[Xilizhra]

Personally, however "necessary" something might be, I'd never see it as acceptable. Death is never acceptable to me. If that makes any sense.

Oh, believe me, I try to avoid death as much as possible too. But sometimes it's not possible.

The Qunari are an enigma. Based on what we've seen (which is only the military branch and one Ben-Hassrath), they seem like fanatical monstrous zealots (though Tallis claims otherwise). But I'm curious as to what their life is actually like inside places like Qunandar.

Irrelevant. If they support the Saarebas system, they contribute to the problem. The Qun may have some good ideas, but the execution is monstrous.
And part of the point of the Qun is that you can't really take individual actions and motives into account, because the Qun tries to eliminate them all. Every qunari is just a minute part of a larger body.