2261 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

Beerfish wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Money, time, effort, and disk space are all fungible.  Anything that goes to MP could have gone to SP. 

Now please demonstrate that they would have.  Or you could just say "fungible" yet again.

"Would have" is irrelevent. 

The claim is being made that any resources dedicated to MP are somehow entirely seperate from SP and just would never ever have been spent on SP.  

And that is simply complete nonsense -- any of it could have been spent there instead. 

Silly arguement, any time spent on DA could have gone into ME, any time spent on DLC for ME2 could have gone into ME3.

Until a person can come up with a totally reliable insider saying that they made clear compromises to ME3 to accomodate MP it's baseless speculatuion or that resources that would be used in ME3 were diverted.  Since a whole other studio is doing the MP part your arguement is very weak.

OK, one more time, and then I'm going to give up on getting people to understand the nuance of the thing.

I'm not saying that they would have been spent on SP, I'm refuting the silly notion that they certainly would not have been spent. 

[bigheadzach]

Taciter wrote...

What comes out of Bioware Montreal is just more welcome content, what I object to is the fact that this content will be exclusive to multiplayers.. . . I feel as though I'm being punished for not liking/wanting to participate in multiplayer.

The three Mass Effect books and the two Mass Effect comic book series have story content in them that is optional and you were not obligated to read. Are you upset that Bioware decided to release story content in a format that you personally didn't care for?

(Conflating, for the moment, a similar dislike of novels/comics with a dislike of multiplayer.)

[Killjoy Cutter]

bigheadzach wrote...

Taciter wrote...

What comes out of Bioware Montreal is just more welcome content, what I object to is the fact that this content will be exclusive to multiplayers.. . . I feel as though I'm being punished for not liking/wanting to participate in multiplayer.

The three Mass Effect books and the two Mass Effect comic book series have story content in them that is optional and you were not obligated to read. Are you upset that Bioware decided to release story content in a format that you personally didn't care for?

(Conflating, for the moment, a similar dislike of novels/comics with a dislike of multiplayer.)

Don't get me started on "outside media" crap in what's supposed to be a game based on story. 

[BounceDK]

lol @ multiplayer - Hey let's all add toasters to our cars and see how much sense that makes.

[coyote_blue]

 All right, guys.  Don't want to stir up specific pots, but I think I want to say it again: I will never stop *****ing about the decision to add multiplayer.

My opinion has nothing to do with money.  It has nothing to do with quality of execution.  It has nothing to do with the MP being optional.  And although I generally dislike multiplayer, it has nothing to do with multiplayer sullying my pristine single player playground.

For every previous Mass Effect, my wife has watched me play.  She calls it the Mass Effect Show.  Whenever I've had to make a momentous decision, we set the controller down and talk about why I should pick one choice or another. She laughs at the one-liners.

I am going to buy and play Battlefield 3.  DICE owes me nothing for a story.  If SP sucks, so be it.  When I play Battlefield, part of my brain turns off.

For me, deciding to add multiplayer is deciding to add an unecessary distraction to a game that's already promised me it was going to be something else.  If there were a Mass Effect MMO, I wouldn't complain.  If this were a spinoff mode downloadable from Origin, I would not complain.

By saying it can affect, but need not affect, singleplayer, BioWare is essentially agreeing with me: this is a freaking distraction from the main game.  It is a poor design choice.  Lightsabers are cool, and thank you George Lucas - but Jar Jar is a mistake.

Assassin's Creed got an unnecessary multiplayer.  Sales went up.  It may not have affected Brotherhood, but it's going to be a distraction in the future.  Anticipate that Ubisoft will break up the main story into shorter chunks, so it can follow the same multiplayer business model other multiplayer games do.

Dragon Age 2 got rushed, for some reason BioWare need not admit to.  We can all look at the re-used dungeon maps and see that corners got cut.

BioWare made this announcement into this environment, not into a vacuum.  Games they have made have gotten rushed. SP games are getting MP they don't need, and angry SP players are told to suck it up.  We are told this because sales go up when you add MP.  We are told this because even though they rushed DA2, people like me ran out and bought all the fixin's on day one.

I can be grown up enough to accept that I'm not the market being catered to.  But I'm also grown up enough not to steal games.  I pay for every game I play.  I pre-order most of what I play.

So, if BioWare's answer is, "if you don't like it, don't play it," they're not addressing my actual issue.  If an album has a "dog track", you can skip that song when it comes up, sure.  But that makes the album worse, like it or not.  And no one ever in the movie industry has ever said, "if you don't like this ten-minute scene, just leave the theater and come back."

People defending the multiplayer are making valid points, but those points only count if Mass Effect is "just fun".  I thought it was trying to be more than just fun.  MP is distraction, and good MP is an even worse distraction.  I refuse to give BioWare one dollar to increase the fun while decreasing the depth of Mass Effect.  It sends the wrong message.

[bigheadzach]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

bigheadzach wrote...

Taciter wrote...

What comes out of Bioware Montreal is just more welcome content, what I object to is the fact that this content will be exclusive to multiplayers.. . . I feel as though I'm being punished for not liking/wanting to participate in multiplayer.

The three Mass Effect books and the two Mass Effect comic book series have story content in them that is optional and you were not obligated to read. Are you upset that Bioware decided to release story content in a format that you personally didn't care for?

(Conflating, for the moment, a similar dislike of novels/comics with a dislike of multiplayer.)

Don't get me started on "outside media" crap in what's supposed to be a game based on story. 

So which is more important to you, the game or the story? Can one survive without the other? It sure can, and it's the latter.

[nelly21]

BounceDK wrote...

lol @ multiplayer - Hey let's all add toasters to our cars and see how much sense that makes.

It wouldn't make sense you're right.

Now why don't we take out the radio and cd player. You don't need it to drive.

[Killjoy Cutter]

bigheadzach wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

bigheadzach wrote...

Taciter wrote...

What comes out of Bioware Montreal is just more welcome content, what I object to is the fact that this content will be exclusive to multiplayers.. . . I feel as though I'm being punished for not liking/wanting to participate in multiplayer.

The three Mass Effect books and the two Mass Effect comic book series have story content in them that is optional and you were not obligated to read. Are you upset that Bioware decided to release story content in a format that you personally didn't care for?

(Conflating, for the moment, a similar dislike of novels/comics with a dislike of multiplayer.)

Don't get me started on "outside media" crap in what's supposed to be a game based on story. 

So which is more important to you, the game or the story? Can one survive without the other? It sure can, and it's the latter.

The point is that you don't present the game as being about this story, and then place vast crucial chunks of the story in outside media just so that you can sell some extruded fiction product in comics and novels.

[NICKjnp]

I'm going to play a Krogan adept with a shotgun and assault rifle. A team isn't elite without a Krogan Battlemaster.

[Taciter]

nelly21 wrote...

BounceDK wrote...

lol @ multiplayer - Hey let's all add toasters to our cars and see how much sense that makes.

It wouldn't make sense you're right.

Now why don't we take out the radio and cd player. You don't need it to drive.

To be more accurate, it's more like faux leopard skin upholstery... it's not needed but it IS a matter of taste. The answer would be to provide a choice of two fabric styles to complement the underlying material (which is standard to all). Leaopard skin (multiplayer) and navy felt with gold trim (AI squad choices for MP thus SP)

[bigheadzach]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

bigheadzach wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

bigheadzach wrote...

Taciter wrote...

What comes out of Bioware Montreal is just more welcome content, what I object to is the fact that this content will be exclusive to multiplayers.. . . I feel as though I'm being punished for not liking/wanting to participate in multiplayer.

The three Mass Effect books and the two Mass Effect comic book series have story content in them that is optional and you were not obligated to read. Are you upset that Bioware decided to release story content in a format that you personally didn't care for?

(Conflating, for the moment, a similar dislike of novels/comics with a dislike of multiplayer.)

Don't get me started on "outside media" crap in what's supposed to be a game based on story. 

So which is more important to you, the game or the story? Can one survive without the other? It sure can, and it's the latter.

The point is that you don't present the game as being about this story, and then place vast crucial chunks of the story in outside media just so that you can sell some extruded fiction product in comics and novels.

I seriously doubt there'll be some jarring, disruptive jump in the SP on the order of "SCENE MISSING (UNLESS YOU PLAY MP)" in the game. Is that how you imagine this? Where in the grand cosmic scheme is it mandated that all Mass Effect experiences must be single player or else they are not valid? If it was your story then I could understand that. Hell, Bioware is even letting players have some say in the story by providing decision / convo options. That's pretty damn generous for a narrative of this scope.

Point is, the ME universe is destined for more than a single player experience, and yes, that type of gameplay is in the minority and probably will be in the foreseeable future. Don't hold it hostage on account of your personal tastes.

[Jade5233]

NICKjnp wrote...

I'm going to play a Krogan adept with a shotgun and assault rifle. A team isn't elite without a Krogan Battlemaster.

Lead on, Battlemaster
-his Asari squadmate

[Taciter]

bigheadzach wrote...
I seriously doubt there'll be some jarring, disruptive jump in the SP on the order of "SCENE MISSING (UNLESS YOU PLAY MP)" in the game. Is that how you imagine this? Where in the grand cosmic scheme is it mandated that all Mass Effect experiences must be single player or else they are not valid? If it was your story then I could understand that. Hell, Bioware is even letting players have some say in the story by providing decision / convo options. That's pretty damn generous for a narrative of this scope.

Point is, the ME universe is destined for more than a single player experience, and yes, that type of gameplay is in the minority and probably will be in the foreseeable future. Don't hold it hostage on account of your personal tastes.

Oh wow, so this pyramid all started with my post hey - okay!

See.. I can already sense a degree of hostility in the tone of your post. Why is it that you people always assume an aggressive posture and why do you always look for the most uncharitable interpretation of a post if the theme, at least on the outset, appears to contradict your personal opinion? Akin to Religious zealots misinterpreting ecumenical scripts to serve the purposes of their ideological crusade.

If you bothered to scrutinise my post in depth and retained some sense pragmatism you would realise that I'm not against the idea of multiplayer.. I'm against the idea of restricting the Bioware Monteal game content to human only squads. With a little tweaking and the inclusion of the single player AI engine, an option to choose AI squad members over human players could easily be implemented - that way, everyone gets their cake and eats it.

Modifié par Taciter, 14 octobre 2011 - 03:15 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

bigheadzach wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

bigheadzach wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

bigheadzach wrote...

Taciter wrote...

What comes out of Bioware Montreal is just more welcome content, what I object to is the fact that this content will be exclusive to multiplayers.. . . I feel as though I'm being punished for not liking/wanting to participate in multiplayer.

The three Mass Effect books and the two Mass Effect comic book series have story content in them that is optional and you were not obligated to read. Are you upset that Bioware decided to release story content in a format that you personally didn't care for?

(Conflating, for the moment, a similar dislike of novels/comics with a dislike of multiplayer.)

Don't get me started on "outside media" crap in what's supposed to be a game based on story. 

So which is more important to you, the game or the story? Can one survive without the other? It sure can, and it's the latter.

The point is that you don't present the game as being about this story, and then place vast crucial chunks of the story in outside media just so that you can sell some extruded fiction product in comics and novels.

I seriously doubt there'll be some jarring, disruptive jump in the SP on the order of "SCENE MISSING (UNLESS YOU PLAY MP)" in the game. Is that how you imagine this?

It's a part of what I was worried about, although so far the details released make it sound like it won't happen.  Honestly, I really did not want to see MP come to ME3, but I'm trying to be fair about it. 

bigheadzach wrote...
Where in the grand cosmic scheme is it mandated that all Mass Effect experiences must be single player or else they are not valid? If it was your story then I could understand that. Hell, Bioware is even letting players have some say in the story by providing decision / convo options. That's pretty damn generous for a narrative of this scope.

Point is, the ME universe is destined for more than a single player experience, and yes, that type of gameplay is in the minority and probably will be in the foreseeable future. Don't hold it hostage on account of your personal tastes.

Would it really have been too much to ask that Shepard's story, ME1 to ME3, finish out as a pure single-player experience, with a solidly contiguous feel from start to finish? 

Why make the online shooter MP "experience" part of ME3 at all?  If the ME universe "needs" to expand into MP, why not go there with a game designed entirely around MP?  Some people like chocolate, some people like peanut butter, some people like both -- but even the people who like both don't all like Peanut Butter Cups. 

[dreman9999]

Killjoy Cutter .....
Why am I not surprised you are against mp? It like your allergic to change and use any excuse to hate anything.

[Melchiah109]

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter .....
Why am I not surprised you are against mp? It like your allergic to change and use any excuse to hate anything.

That can be said with the vast majority of people who keep trying to rally to the anti-MP cause. No amount of discussion will change their minds, the won't stop trying to change yours with their "superior intellect", and they believe everything the read on the internet that agrees with their points of view.

Then they call anyone who doesn't jump on their bandwagon fanboys without realizing that, by definition, they are far bigger fanboys than anyone else. I love irony.

Modifié par Melchiah109, 14 octobre 2011 - 04:08 .

[Darkelefantos1]

Bummer, I got noone to play it with. BW put thought and effort into it, so I figure people should try first and complain later? Besides, not playing Shep once would be fun.

[Killjoy Cutter]

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter .....
Why am I not surprised you are against mp? It like your allergic to change and use any excuse to hate anything.

I've been over why I'm concerned by the inclusion of MP in ME3 several times.  Some of the issues which have been discussed already:   

1)  Resources which COULD have been used for SP.  (Not would, could.  Please see previous go-arounds on the subject). 

2)  Influx of typical online MP players, with their attitudes, behaviors, etc.  (See also, teabagging, griefing, lolzing, etc, plus having no idea who you are playing with.)

3)  Intrusion of MP into SP, such as MP balance issues affecting SP build (See also, constant diaper-wetting and bawling for nerfs to other classes by PvP players in WoW causing constant headaches for PvE players.)

4)  Content being used for MP instead of SP portion of the game

5)  Greater chance of Origin being required because of online MP.

6)  Greater chance of anti-Modding "features" being coded in because of MP.

7)  The general movement of computer gaming from a solitary, relaxing activity to a frustrating, pointless activity involving strangers over an anonymous medium, because of the perceived financial incentives on the part of publishers. 

8)  Etc. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 14 octobre 2011 - 04:21 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Melchiah109 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter .....
Why am I not surprised you are against mp? It like your allergic to change and use any excuse to hate anything.

That can be said with the vast majority of people who keep trying to rally to the anti-MP cause. No amount of discussion will change their minds, the won't stop trying to change yours with their "superior intellect", and they believe everything the read on the internet that agrees with their points of view.

Then they call anyone who doesn't jump on their bandwagon fanboys without realizing that, by definition, they are far bigger fanboys than anyone else. I love irony.

In other words, you just feel like trashing people because it's easier to paint them in a bad light, and thus their arguments by association, than it is to actually have a coherent argument of your own. 

[TobyHasEyes]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Money, time, effort, and disk space are all fungible.  Anything that goes to MP could have gone to SP. 

Now please demonstrate that they would have.  Or you could just say "fungible" yet again.

"Would have" is irrelevent. 

The claim is being made that any resources dedicated to MP are somehow entirely seperate from SP and just would never ever have been spent on SP.  

And that is simply complete nonsense -- any of it could have been spent there instead. 

 I recognise the point you make later than this post, that it is not a given that any money spent on MP wouldn't have been able to be spent on SP

 But at the same time it is perfectly feasible and believable that Bioware would have been given an additional MP-specific budget, say by EA, that was to be spent only on the development of MP

 The nub of this is that we don't know, but it means that when considering the two following claims..

 -  The MP component pulled money from the SP budget
  - The MP component had a seperate budget to the SP; money made exclusively available for MP

 We have to say that we don't know either way, but that each are perfectly possible and feasible

[bigheadzach]

Taciter wrote...

See.. I can already sense a degree of hostility in the tone of your post. Why is it that you people always assume an aggressive posture and why do you always look for the most uncharitable interpretation of a post if the theme, at least on the outset, appears to contradict your personal opinion? Akin to Religious zealots misinterpreting ecumenical scripts to serve the purposes of their ideological crusade.

If you bothered to scrutinise my post in depth and retained some sense pragmatism you would realise that I'm not against the idea of multiplayer.. I'm against the idea of restricting the Bioware Monteal game content to human only squads. With a little tweaking and the inclusion of the single player AI engine, an option to choose AI squad members over human players could easily be implemented - that way, everyone gets their cake and eats it.

I apologize - my post was not in reply to you at all, but to the sentiment that there is somehow an unfairness (beyond simple differences in taste) that certain story elements would be unavailable to players who refused to participate in Co-op.

[Melchiah109]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...


In other words, you just feel like trashing people because it's easier to paint them in a bad light, and thus their arguments by association, than it is to actually have a coherent argument of your own. 

No. Just people like you that refuse to take anyone's points into consideration and just toss out "I'm right and you're wrong" conjectures repeatedly with no basis in the physical reality that we occupy. You build straw man arguements that have nothing to do with what was said, and you take things completely out of context. Your sig claiming Origin is spyware is proof to that fact as well. Seeing as Steam has the same clause, has been around for years, and I don't see you saying it's spyware too. If you can have an intelligent, two-way, discussion then go right ahead. You, sir, cannot. You don't shut up until you've been ignored because it's completely impossible you could ever be wrong about something. So yes, your arguements are invalid by association with your fingers.

Modifié par Melchiah109, 14 octobre 2011 - 04:33 .

[dreman9999]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter .....
Why am I not surprised you are against mp? It like your allergic to change and use any excuse to hate anything.

I've been over why I'm concerned by the inclusion of MP in ME3 several times.  Some of the issues which have been discussed already:   

1)  Resources which COULD have been used for SP.  (Not would, could.  Please see previous go-arounds on the subject). 

2)  Influx of typical online MP players, with their attitudes, behaviors, etc.  (See also, teabagging, griefing, lolzing, etc, plus having no idea who you are playing with.)

3)  Intrusion of MP into SP, such as MP balance issues affecting SP build (See also, constant diaper-wetting and bawling for nerfs to other classes by PvP players in WoW causing constant headaches for PvE players.)

4)  Content being used for MP instead of SP portion of the game

5)  Greater chance of Origin being required because of online MP.

6)  Greater chance of anti-Modding "features" being coded in because of MP.

7)  The general movement of computer gaming from a solitary, relaxing activity to a frustrating, pointless activity involving strangers over an anonymous medium, because of the perceived financial incentives on the part of publishers. 

8)  Etc. 

1.Bioware has the resources of EA at their back. They are not going to run out of resources or be at need.Throwing more money at a team does not make the game better if the team is working at max.

2.It's co-op. It not competitive. It's commutative. Your working together with people and playing against. Only vs games have that.

3.No it will not effect the balance of the sp. It's an alternate to resource gathering in the sp. In ME3, you have to get resource to build your army and to do that you have to fight of resources in sub missions. The mp is just that but as a co-op. It's only one portion of getting ready for the war. They are other factor to consider.

4.Now you sounding like a parrot. This was the first response. The answer is that if they need content. he sp team would just add more people, Which nothing's stopping them from doing.

5.So........What's the problem in that? It's not a payed services.You don't get upset the you have to use steam to play valves mp games?

6.So what? Normally Modding a mp game is just cheating.(Unless you want to add more character skins.) Isn't the sp you want to mod?

7........You clearly need to look at games again....They have always been mp games.And to add mp to be able to get more money is not a bad thing. A company need to make money. What would be worse is if bioware is charging extra for the mode ether add more money to the cost of the games or dlc.

8.I take it your going to pull more pointless reasons out of your hat?

Modifié par dreman9999, 14 octobre 2011 - 04:53 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

bigheadzach wrote...

Taciter wrote...

See.. I can already sense a degree of hostility in the tone of your post. Why is it that you people always assume an aggressive posture and why do you always look for the most uncharitable interpretation of a post if the theme, at least on the outset, appears to contradict your personal opinion? Akin to Religious zealots misinterpreting ecumenical scripts to serve the purposes of their ideological crusade.

If you bothered to scrutinise my post in depth and retained some sense pragmatism you would realise that I'm not against the idea of multiplayer.. I'm against the idea of restricting the Bioware Monteal game content to human only squads. With a little tweaking and the inclusion of the single player AI engine, an option to choose AI squad members over human players could easily be implemented - that way, everyone gets their cake and eats it.

I apologize - my post was not in reply to you at all, but to the sentiment that there is somehow an unfairness (beyond simple differences in taste) that certain story elements would be unavailable to players who refused to participate in Co-op.

Given the simple fact that we've come this far, with games that have a specific type of gameplay that we know we like, only to suddenly be told, just as we get to the final installment of the story in its full entirety, that we're going to have to also have to engage in a second type of gameplay that some of us really, really don't like, in order to finish out the whole of the story... yes, there is a certain level of unfairness in it.  

It's something like a company with a free broadcast channel and a premium cable channel taking the final season of their very well made hit show, and moving it from the free channel to the channel that costs $10/month to get.  Fans now must choose between forgoing the final season, or paying the extra money to watch it.  The rules have been changed at the very end.  Or giving away a bunch of free tickets to the Superbowl, and then at the end of the 3rd quarter, telling all the people who have them that they have to pay, or leave the stadium. 


I'm also a little put off by your phrasing "refuse to participate", as if this is a class activity and anyone who doesn't play MP is just sitting at their desk pouting. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Melchiah109 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

In other words, you just feel like trashing people because it's easier to paint them in a bad light, and thus their arguments by association, than it is to actually have a coherent argument of your own. 

No. Just people like you that refuse to take anyone's points into consideration and just toss out "I'm right and you're wrong" conjectures repeatedly with no basis in the physical reality that we occupy. You build straw man arguements that have nothing to do with what was said, and you take things completely out of context. Your sig claiming Origin is spyware is proof to that fact as well. Seeing as Steam has the same clause, has been around for years, and I don't see you saying it's spyware too. If you can have an intelligent, two-way, discussion then go right ahead. You, sir, cannot. You don't shut up until you've been ignored because it's completely impossible you could ever be wrong about something. So yes, your arguements are invalid by association with your fingers.

Your claim that Origin isn't spyware is proof enough that you're not paying attention to what's actually going on.  BTW, I refuse to install Steam on my PC or buy any game that requires Steam -- it's just that we're not on a Steam-related forum, and Origin goes a step farther in capabity to spy. 

As for the rest of your post, it just shows that you're not paying attention to who is posting what in these discussions.