2261 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

dreman9999 wrote...


No,it's not. How can you say they did not have GR in mind in the begining. If so, then that would mean that even if the game had no mp, you still had to do side mission to build up GR any way. So in the end, mp or not, they were going to make GR a feature of the game. If your have an issue with grinding then mp has no issues in it because reguardless if you play the mp or not you still have to get GR build up in the sp, aka grinding as you put it. This means the issue is not with the mp.

Because, as I stated, how grinding is balanced takes into account all the different methods of play. I did not say that GR is not a problem, I said multiplayer can enhance that problem. Let's try this one last time:

Scenario 1: MP affects SP. To achieve the optimal ending, I can play SP and obtain it in four hours. Or I can play MP and obtain it in one hour.

Scenario 2: MP does not affect SP, which means everyone must engage in more similar content to obtain the optimal ending, which could affect balancing; I can now obtain the Optimal Ending in one hour, using SP.

Multiplayer just made that experience worse, in consideration of scenarios 1 and 2.

[Taciter]

Il Divo wrote...
I ran into the same problem with PvP content.

Ugh.... prior to 'Age of Conan', I had subscribed to 'Eve Online' for 2 years - never will I make that mistake again. The concept of strategic resource accumulation over time is completely alien to those people. The moment you leave the stagnant economies of the PvE sandbox, you're shot down within the blink of an eye at the expense of several months worth of hard work - it really was like having a second job! Monotonous, unrewarding and uninspiring.

Il Divo wrote...
There is a sliver of hope here; while Bioware has denied AI squad-mates (a shame), tentatively Brenon has confirmed that it is possible to engage in multiplayer solo. So depending on how it's balanced, it would involve resource management in a scenario similar to Pinnacle Station, which is hardly the best scenario but also not the worst.

In the absence of a dedicated AI squad option, this is the hope I'd been hanging on to however, there appears to be some speculation as to the necessity of a squad. Apparently side objectives (which invariably lead to optimal conclusions) requiring a second independent squad member may be included (e.g. one hacks terminal, other defends hacker) - that's my only remaining concern.

Modifié par Taciter, 18 octobre 2011 - 03:36 .

[dreman9999]

Il Divo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...


No,it's not. How can you say they did not have GR in mind in the begining. If so, then that would mean that even if the game had no mp, you still had to do side mission to build up GR any way. So in the end, mp or not, they were going to make GR a feature of the game. If your have an issue with grinding then mp has no issues in it because reguardless if you play the mp or not you still have to get GR build up in the sp, aka grinding as you put it. This means the issue is not with the mp.

Because, as I stated, how grinding is balanced takes into account all the different methods of play. I did not say that GR is not a problem, I said multiplayer can enhance that problem. Let's try this one last time:

Scenario 1: MP affects SP. To achieve the optimal ending, I can play SP and obtain it in four hours. Or I can play MP and obtain it in one hour.

Scenario 2: MP does not affect SP, which means everyone must engage in more similar content to obtain the optimal ending, which could affect balancing; I can now obtain the Optimal Ending in one hour, using SP.

Multiplayer just made that experience worse, in consideration of scenarios 1 and 2.

For one,we don't know how it's balanced yet. We don't knw howmuch GR point you get in the MP or the sp. We also know that Bioware etno extra benifit to padding their games, so withthat they have no reason to making GR gain off balance like an mmo that does iton perpose to get more money. Also, we have to get GR points any way, even it they did not have mp in it.
So in the end, the issue is not themp, it's the GR. Why? Because you haveto earn it no matter what and the mp and sp GR is equal.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Taciter wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Taciter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
But you don't have to play the mp...

I find it's useful to actually read the posts to which you intend to respond.

Why should he?  Everyone thinks just like he does, so there's no need, right? 

lol.. that's why nothing ever get's resolved in these forums. There IS no debate.. just the same stobborn perspectives.

I tried to foster support in the concept of AI squad mates as an additional 'option' and it was unceremoniously cast aside in favour of subscribing to one of two polar opinions. These people aren't interested in looking for compromises!

I fully support the concept of AI squadmates in MP. 

(Which would also open the the question of why we can't have 3 squadmates in SP, as with the Dragon Age games.)

[dreman9999]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It can just as easily mean that you like ME1, like ME2 a little less, and see what's known about ME3 so far, and you're disappointed and disgusted by what ME3 will likely be. 

That still means the same asmy point. If you truely hate something, you cut it away from you. If you go as far as regulary state what wrong with something, you care about it enough to want it to be improved. No matter what you say, even if you don't buy ME3 day one,you will beinfluence to buy ME3 based on reveiws and fan feedback. It's not going to be a bad game unless the cut alot of things from it...which they are not.

Don't presume that everyone else thinks the way you think.  You keep doing it. 

This is just human nature. No one stays with something they turely hate by choice. If they stay with it by choice, then their is a degree of care. If yo u truely were never going to buy me3,you would not be on theis forum complaining about it.

And I'm sure you sincerely believe that.  Whatever.  Doesn't make it true about everyone, chief. 

So, if you don't like something and you have a choice in letting it go, you'll still keep it?

[Taciter]

dreman9999 wrote...

Taciter wrote...I find it's useful to actually read the posts to which you intend to respond.

I did. You stated you find mp to be bad and a bad effect on you. You turn to sp games because of that. And you feel upset that mp is added to ME because of your past history with mp. What I'm saying is in the end, your not forced to play the mp, so you can easily keep your sp refuge.

That's my point Dre.. a refuge is no longer a refuge when the antagonists have sullied its sanctity.

If a tramp had been hammering at your landlords door for several months demanding temporary lodgings, then for some inexplicable reason, the landlord capitulates and in turn demands that you let said tramp stay in your attic, would you be miffed?

You may never go into the attic, the tramp may never come out of the attic but you're always conscious that the property you rent is no longer exclusively yours and in order to gain access to the attic, you will have to interact with the tramp - if only for appearances sake.

[Taciter]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
I fully support the concept of AI squadmates in MP. 
(Which would also open the the question of why we can't have 3 squadmates in SP, as with the Dragon Age games.)

Thank you Killjoy and that is a very intriguing question!

[Killjoy Cutter]

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It can just as easily mean that you like ME1, like ME2 a little less, and see what's known about ME3 so far, and you're disappointed and disgusted by what ME3 will likely be. 

That still means the same asmy point. If you truely hate something, you cut it away from you. If you go as far as regulary state what wrong with something, you care about it enough to want it to be improved. No matter what you say, even if you don't buy ME3 day one,you will beinfluence to buy ME3 based on reveiws and fan feedback. It's not going to be a bad game unless the cut alot of things from it...which they are not.

Don't presume that everyone else thinks the way you think.  You keep doing it. 

This is just human nature. No one stays with something they turely hate by choice. If they stay with it by choice, then their is a degree of care. If yo u truely were never going to buy me3,you would not be on theis forum complaining about it.

And I'm sure you sincerely believe that.  Whatever.  Doesn't make it true about everyone, chief. 

So, if you don't like something and you have a choice in letting it go, you'll still keep it?

You're confusing someone posting here because they don't like where ME3 appears to be headed, with "keeping it" instead of "letting go". 

I have two or three good analogies for what people expressing their concerns actually is, instead of this "talking about it means you still love it" nonsense you've latched on to, but frankly, you'd just tear off on some irrelevent tangent with an anology, so forget it. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Taciter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Taciter wrote...I find it's useful to actually read the posts to which you intend to respond.

I did. You stated you find mp to be bad and a bad effect on you. You turn to sp games because of that. And you feel upset that mp is added to ME because of your past history with mp. What I'm saying is in the end, your not forced to play the mp, so you can easily keep your sp refuge.

That's my point Dre.. a refuge is no longer a refuge when the antagonists have sullied its sanctity.

If a tramp had been hammering at your landlords door for several months demanding temporary lodgings, then for some inexplicable reason, the landlord capitulates and in turn demands that you let said tramp stay in your attic, would you be miffed?

You may never go into the attic, the tramp may never come out of the attic but you're always conscious that the property you rent is no longer exclusively yours and in order to gain access to the attic, you will have to interact with the tramp - if only for appearances sake.

Bingo.

[dreman9999]

Taciter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Taciter wrote...I find it's useful to actually read the posts to which you intend to respond.

I did. You stated you find mp to be bad and a bad effect on you. You turn to sp games because of that. And you feel upset that mp is added to ME because of your past history with mp. What I'm saying is in the end, your not forced to play the mp, so you can easily keep your sp refuge.

That's my point Dre.. a refuge is no longer a refuge when the antagonists have sullied its sanctity.

If a tramp had been hammering at your landlords door for several months demanding temporary lodgings, then for some inexplicable reason, the landlord capitulates and in turn demands that you let said tramp stay in your attic, would you be miffed?

You may never go into the attic, the tramp may never come out of the attic but you're always conscious that the property you rent is no longer exclusively yours and in order to gain access to the attic, you will have to interact with the tramp - if only for appearances sake.

But you don't have to play the mp.  Just having it their does not effect you. It only effects you if you play it.Hence, ifyou don't play it, it won't effect you. Your not force to play it and ME3 main focus is the sp game.So in the end, you can just focus on the sp game.
You can just not play the mp.

[dreman9999]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It can just as easily mean that you like ME1, like ME2 a little less, and see what's known about ME3 so far, and you're disappointed and disgusted by what ME3 will likely be. 

That still means the same asmy point. If you truely hate something, you cut it away from you. If you go as far as regulary state what wrong with something, you care about it enough to want it to be improved. No matter what you say, even if you don't buy ME3 day one,you will beinfluence to buy ME3 based on reveiws and fan feedback. It's not going to be a bad game unless the cut alot of things from it...which they are not.

Don't presume that everyone else thinks the way you think.  You keep doing it. 

This is just human nature. No one stays with something they turely hate by choice. If they stay with it by choice, then their is a degree of care. If yo u truely were never going to buy me3,you would not be on theis forum complaining about it.

And I'm sure you sincerely believe that.  Whatever.  Doesn't make it true about everyone, chief. 

So, if you don't like something and you have a choice in letting it go, you'll still keep it?

You're confusing someone posting here because they don't like where ME3 appears to be headed, with "keeping it" instead of "letting go". 

I have two or three good analogies for what people expressing their concerns actually is, instead of this "talking about it means you still love it" nonsense you've latched on to, but frankly, you'd just tear off on some irrelevent tangent with an anology, so forget it. 

But the fact remain, your still here regardless to all the changes you don't like.  Meaning you have some care for the series still. If you did not, you would be long gone.

Modifié par dreman9999, 18 octobre 2011 - 04:00 .

[Taciter]

dreman9999 wrote...
But you don't have to play the mp.  Just having it their does not effect you. It only effects you if you play it.Hence, ifyou don't play it, it won't effect you. Your not force to play it and ME3 main focus is the sp game.So in the end, you can just focus on the sp game.
You can just not play the mp.

But my Router is in the attic, occassionally, I need to switch it to another wireless channel to get optimal broadband. However, that will mean I'll have to enter the tramp's Den which I really don't want to do.

I recognise, the landlord has already written a tenancy agreement for the tramp so it's not like he can evict him but at the very least he could provide me with a set of overalls so that I could gain access to the attic anytime I like without having to immerse myself in his squalor. =P

Modifié par Taciter, 18 octobre 2011 - 04:41 .

[dreman9999]

Taciter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
But you don't have to play the mp.  Just having it their does not effect you. It only effects you if you play it.Hence, ifyou don't play it, it won't effect you. Your not force to play it and ME3 main focus is the sp game.So in the end, you can just focus on the sp game.
You can just not play the mp.

But my Router is in the attic, occassionally, I need to switch it to another wireless channel to get optimal broadband. However, that will mean I'll have to enter the tramp's Den which I really don't want to do.

I recognise, the landlord has already written a tenancy agreement for the tramp so it's not like he can evict him but at the very least he could provide me with a set of overalls so that I could gain access to the attic anytime I like without having to immerse myself in his squalor. =P

What ever joke your tryin gto say completly flew over my head, so why not just get to the point.

[Killjoy Cutter]

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It can just as easily mean that you like ME1, like ME2 a little less, and see what's known about ME3 so far, and you're disappointed and disgusted by what ME3 will likely be. 

That still means the same asmy point. If you truely hate something, you cut it away from you. If you go as far as regulary state what wrong with something, you care about it enough to want it to be improved. No matter what you say, even if you don't buy ME3 day one,you will beinfluence to buy ME3 based on reveiws and fan feedback. It's not going to be a bad game unless the cut alot of things from it...which they are not.

Don't presume that everyone else thinks the way you think.  You keep doing it. 

This is just human nature. No one stays with something they turely hate by choice. If they stay with it by choice, then their is a degree of care. If yo u truely were never going to buy me3,you would not be on theis forum complaining about it.

And I'm sure you sincerely believe that.  Whatever.  Doesn't make it true about everyone, chief. 

So, if you don't like something and you have a choice in letting it go, you'll still keep it?

You're confusing someone posting here because they don't like where ME3 appears to be headed, with "keeping it" instead of "letting go". 

I have two or three good analogies for what people expressing their concerns actually is, instead of this "talking about it means you still love it" nonsense you've latched on to, but frankly, you'd just tear off on some irrelevent tangent with an anology, so forget it. 

But the fact remain, your still here regardless to all the changes you don't like.  Meaning you have some care for the series still. If you did not, you would be long gone.

Fine, if that's what you need to believe, whatever.

[Taciter]

dreman9999 wrote...
What ever joke your tryin gto say completly flew over my head, so why not just get to the point.

I can't say I'm suprised and tempting though it is to indulge in yet another absurdly comprehensible analogy, I don't think it would make the slightest bit of difference.

You have decided that you love ALL the proposed changes to be implemented in the forthcoming third installment of the 'Mass Effect' franchise and so long as nothings/no-one upsets the apple cart, you'll get your dream SP/MP hybrid game. However, to ensure that nothing gets changed you absolutely MUST stay vigilant. Any possible opposition to even the most trivial aspects of ME3's proposed devlopement schedule could ruin the entire experience for you - the best thing to do is to simply sit in this forum for the next few months and contradict any/all suggestions that could compromise on any issue.

Analogies are dangerously illuminating so best feign ignorance on those and if possible, say something clever to further discredit or dismiss it. I get it.. good plan man!

Modifié par Taciter, 18 octobre 2011 - 04:58 .

[dreman9999]

Taciter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
What ever joke your tryin gto say completly flew over my head, so why not just get to the point.

I can't say I'm suprised and tempting though it is to indulge in yet another absurdly comprehensible analogy, I don't think it would make the slightest bit of difference.

You have decided that you love ALL the proposed changes to be implemented in the forthcoming third installment of the 'Mass Effect' franchise and so long as nothings/no-one upsets the apple cart, you'll get your dream SP/MP hybrid game. However, to ensure that nothing gets changed you absolutely MUST stay vigilant. Any possible opposition to even the most trivial aspects of ME3's proposed devlopement schedule could ruin the entire experience for you - the best thing to do is to simply sit in this forum for the next few months and contradict any/all suggestions that could compromise on any issue.

Analogies are dangerously illuminating so best feign ignorance on those and if possible, say something clever to further discredit or dismiss it. I get it.. good plan man!

Again....What?

[Taciter]

I'm completely at a loss for words...

[dreman9999]

Taciter wrote...

I'm completely at a loss for words...

So am I . I'm not understanding you point. You just went into a rant. How can I respond to something that say nothing of value.

[Taciter]

dreman9999 wrote...
So am I . I'm not understanding you point. You just went into a rant. How can I respond to something that say nothing of value.

No.. a 'rant' is an overzealous verbal expression. The posts to which you were referring contain no such characteristics, they were rational, ullustrative statements. If you don't have the capacity to disseminate the contents then don't blame me and if you don't understand the point, how did you manage to determine that it contained 'nothing of value'?

But okay, I'll have one last go... if you need me to send you a pop up book, I will... but you're responsible for the publisher's fee.

ME1 = Mass EFfect 1
ME2 = Mass Effect 2
ME3 = Mass Effect 3
SP = Single Player
MP = Multiplayer
AI = AI controlled Squad members
$profits1 = Theoretical Profit value 1
$profits2 = Theoretical Profit value 2
$happycustomers1 = Theoretical No. happy people value1
$happycustomers2 = Theoretical No. happy people value2

Okay, so if:

 'Mass Effect Franchise' = 'ME1' + 'ME2' + 'ME3'

And...

 'ME1' = SP
 'ME2' = SP

What should 'ME3' equal?
Since logic clearly has a sense of humour we'll throw a spanner in the works shall we:

 'ME3' = (SP + MP)

Which means that:

 SP > MP
 (SP + MP) > SP
 SP <> (SP + MP)

So how do we logically balance the equation?

 AI = MP
 (SP + AI) = (SP + MP)

So to conclude:

 'ME3' = (SP + MP) = Bad
 'ME3' = (SP + MP + AI) = Good

[Edit]

n.b. Missed a step:

Good = $happycustomers1 = $profits1
Bad = $happycustomers2 = $profits2

Good > Bad

Modifié par Taciter, 18 octobre 2011 - 06:03 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Taciter gave a very good analogy.

[dreman9999]

Taciter wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
So am I . I'm not understanding you point. You just went into a rant. How can I respond to something that say nothing of value.

No.. a 'rant' is an overzealous verbal expression. The posts to which you were referring contain no such characteristics, they were rational, ullustrative statements. If you don't have the capacity to disseminate the contents then don't blame me and if you don't understand the point, how did you manage to determine that it contained 'nothing of value'?

But okay, I'll have one last go... if you need me to send you a pop up book, I will... but you're responsible for the publisher's fee.

ME1 = Mass EFfect 1
ME2 = Mass Effect 2
ME3 = Mass Effect 3
SP = Single Player
MP = Multiplayer
AI = AI controlled Squad members
$profits1 = Theoretical Profit value 1
$profits2 = Theoretical Profit value 2

Okay, so if:

 'Mass Effect Franchise' = 'ME1' + 'ME2' + 'ME3'

And...

 'ME1' = SP
 'ME2' = SP

What should 'ME3' equal?
Since logic clearly has a sense of humour we'll throw a spanner in the works shall we:

 'ME3' = (SP + MP)

Which means that:

 SP > MP
 (SP + MP) > SP
 SP <> (SP + MP)

So how do we logically balance the question?

 AI = MP
 (SP + AI) = (SP + MP)

So to conclude:

 'ME3' = (SP + MP) = Bad
 'ME3' = (SP + MP + AI) = Good

And...

 Good = $profits1
 Bad = $profits2

 $profits1 > $profits2

But ME3 =SP>mp. Stating ME3 asa value of SP +mp is a bit of a strech.

If any thing. ME3 SP=THE value of ME1and ME2 sp.
The mp in ME3 is an add on.
Nor was I ever stating Mp should not have AI. But on point. A MP AI would be no different then the sp side mission. In shortyou already have something like that.

It would be ME3 SP=(ME1 sp +ME2 sp)> mp

Modifié par dreman9999, 18 octobre 2011 - 06:04 .

[Lumikki]

dreman9999 wrote...

 What I'm saying is in the end, your not forced to play the mp, so you can easily keep your sp refuge.

We aren't forced to play the MP, but we are FORCE to PAY the MP content, because it's inside the SP game we buy.
WHY are we forced to pay MP content for YOU?

Modifié par Lumikki, 18 octobre 2011 - 06:15 .

[JeffZero]

Garrison2009 wrote...

Wow... I must admit, I've honestly been intentionally staying away from these forums since Cooperative play was announced because I knew that, in a way, the effect of the news would be much like lobbing a grenade into a nuclear power plant that was already on fire. In essence, it takes the war, about whether RPGs should remain as they always have or change to fit a more modern crowd, and defines both sides and their respective views on the future of gaming very well. Now I'm not going to state my opinion in favor of one side or the other on the matter of the inclusion of Co-op here, as I wish to reserve final judgement of ME3 until I actually have played it, but I honestly am tired of the bigotry and condescension from both sides of the argument. For god's sake, yes, we're all entitled to our opinions, but we should be wary not to dissolve completely into animalistic rages whenever someone posts something that does not necessarily agree with our point of view. Now I know that my words here will not do an iota of good, as this war has been going on for a long time now and will continue to go on whether I choose to participate in it or not, but my warning to you all is simply this: If we cant at least debate with civility about how we think a game should be... How can we be expected to act as rational human beings when debating issues that are FAR more important than this?

If BSN had the option to 'five-star' posts this would have gotten it from me.

[Riknas]

Lumikki wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

 What I'm saying is in the end, your not forced to play the mp, so you can easily keep your sp refuge.

We aren't forced to play the MP, but we are FORCE to PAY the MP content, because it's inside the SP game we buyed.
WHY are we forced to pay MP content for YOU?

We're not forced to do anything, let alone buy the game. It's a feature in it.

Why should I NOT be allowed to have it to make YOU happy?

Note: Agreed, Jeff, and Garrison.

Modifié par Riknas, 18 octobre 2011 - 06:15 .

[dreman9999]

Lumikki wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

 What I'm saying is in the end, your not forced to play the mp, so you can easily keep your sp refuge.

We aren't forced to play MP, but we are FORCE to PAY MP content, because it's inside the SP game we buyed.
WHY are we forced to pay MP content for YOU?

I'm sorry you no considering thatthe sp is an equal value of the sp of ME2 and ME1. The averge cost of agame is $60. Ifwe are getting less in the sp because of this or being charged more for the game because of this, I would understand your point.