3140 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

There's a fundemental difference between licensing out IP for use by another "content provider" in their product, and selling an actual product to an actual customer. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 22 novembre 2011 - 03:16 .

[Dark Pendora]

I pre ordered the CE retail, i will wait till about a month before release for a definite conformation about origin, if its required, cancel pre order, if it isnt then happy me.

[N0-Future]

Dark Pendora wrote...

I pre ordered the CE retail, i will wait till about a month before release for a definite conformation about origin, if its required, cancel pre order, if it isnt then happy me.

I cancelled my pre-order as soon as I found out about insidious Origin. The very fact that the issue of whether ME3 will require Origin to play has not yet been addressed by EA / BioWare is a bad sign. They let people know months ago the Starwars the Old republic would not require Origin, so why cant they do the same for ME3?
I think they will ignore the question untill as close to release date as possible unless we kick up enough fuss and pre-orders take a hit.

Modifié par N0-Future, 22 novembre 2011 - 03:45 .

[Dark Pendora]

N0-Future wrote...

Dark Pendora wrote...

I pre ordered the CE retail, i will wait till about a month before release for a definite conformation about origin, if its required, cancel pre order, if it isnt then happy me.

I cancelled my pre-order as soon as I found out about insidious Origin. The very fact that the issue of whether ME3 will require Origin to play has not yet been addressed by EA / BioWare is a bad sign. They let people know months ago the Starwars the Old republic would not require Origin, so why cant they do the same for ME3?
I think they will ignore the question untill as close to release date as possible unless we kick up enough fuss and pre-orders take a hit.

Knowing the general gaming community, pre orders probably wont take that much of a hit, and certainly not on the console because those are not plagued with origin. I think Bioware needs to step up their game and simply refuse to release the game on pc if EA  requires it to be on origin and forces players to run origin in order to play, however thats unlikely.

[N0-Future]

Dark Pendora wrote...

N0-Future wrote...

Dark Pendora wrote...

I pre ordered the CE retail, i will wait till about a month before release for a definite conformation about origin, if its required, cancel pre order, if it isnt then happy me.

I cancelled my pre-order as soon as I found out about insidious Origin. The very fact that the issue of whether ME3 will require Origin to play has not yet been addressed by EA / BioWare is a bad sign. They let people know months ago the Starwars the Old republic would not require Origin, so why cant they do the same for ME3?
I think they will ignore the question untill as close to release date as possible unless we kick up enough fuss and pre-orders take a hit.

Knowing the general gaming community, pre orders probably wont take that much of a hit, and certainly not on the console because those are not plagued with origin. I think Bioware needs to step up their game and simply refuse to release the game on pc if EA  requires it to be on origin and forces players to run origin in order to play, however thats unlikely.

We can hope though...

[CenturyCrow]

N0-Future wrote...
I cancelled my pre-order as soon as I found out about insidious Origin. The very fact that the issue of whether ME3 will require Origin to play has not yet been addressed by EA / BioWare is a bad sign. They let people know months ago the Starwars the Old republic would not require Origin, so why cant they do the same for ME3?
I think they will ignore the question untill as close to release date as possible unless we kick up enough fuss and pre-orders take a hit.

Agreed on being kept in the dark for so long.

While I've read a lot about Origin, I'm still ignorant if it functions as DRM. Does Origin function as DRM?

If it functions as DRM and is NOT mandatory for ME3 single player, what would EA/BW use?

Admittedly, I expect Origin will be mandatory regardless of whether you play single player or multiplayer. EA seems to be pushing Origin hard. So unless there's a significant legal or technical problem with Origin (like Germany), I think we'll need a work around like Sandboxie to limit the spyware functions. Allthough, I'm hoping I can have another computer built by March--play ME3, re-install Windows and ignore EA games after that. I don't like the direction BW is going since EA took control--Dragon Age is now dead for me, along with any DLC or clothing.

Modifié par CenturyCrow, 22 novembre 2011 - 06:45 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Another reason to oppose "services" such as Origin: 


 http://www.guardian....hishing-attacks

Gamers have been hit by a fresh wave of hacking attacks – and this time, most worryingly, targeting their accounts on Xbox Live, Microsoft's closed, proprietary and therefore supposedly unhackable online gaming service.

Reports are proliferating of Xbox Live users checking the credit card and bank account statements which they use to pay their Xbox Live subscriptions, and discovering payments which they did not make, generally over a period of months, which were used to buy Microsoft Points (the service's currency which enables users to purchase extra downloadable content, games and in-game objects) which were then cashed in to buy downloadable content from EA Sports – specifically Ultimate Team Packs for its games FIFA 12, Madden and NBA.

This outbreak of Xbox Live users being scammed has been widely reported as an instance of phishing – where hackers con people into giving away their account details – most notably on the front page of the Sun. But anecdotal evidence from games forums makes it clear that these are not simple cases of phishing.

There is no question that phishing scams targeting Xbox Live accounts are rife: their typical modus operandi involves setting up official-looking websites which purport to be giving away free Microsoft Points, but insist on users inputting their details before they do so. But the nature of the scam dictates that people know when they have been phished, and this particular outbreak only came to light when Xbox Live users scrutinised their bank and credit card statements, not when they snapped up free Microsoft Points. So it is clearly a sophisticated and more sinister new form of phishing – closer to hacking – in which people's crucial account details have been obtained not from them but from a third party.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 22 novembre 2011 - 07:43 .

[Zeppex]

hmm

[Killjoy Cutter]

http://chronicle.com...Even-if/127461/

[SalsaDMA]

marstor05 wrote...

lets face it there are probably other things you dont even know about scanning your pc on a regular basis to find out what your shopping habits are, which porn channels youve visited this month, how many hours you spend gaming, what your interests are, etc......

Murder happens every day too. I don't expect you think that should just be accepted as well, right? <_<

[SalsaDMA]

That's some pretty good links Killjoy

[Lukertin]

billy the squid wrote...
Resale is not copyright infringement, but passing it of and selling it by making copies of it is. You are not the IP holder, you might own the item,but not the intellectual property right. The idea of a lease is established, you could try and argue against it, but you will fail. As such the licensor has rights to controll what is done with the IP, what they can't do is cram in every cluase they can concieve, because it runs the risk of violating national legislation.

That isn't quite right under US law, in Vernor v. Autodesk, 621 F.3d 1102, decided in 2010 by the Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circus, the resale of licensed software does indeed constitute copyright infringement, because the reseller does not have title in the software to begin with (since it is just a license), and therefore the resale of the software is unauthorized under US copyright laws. The US Supreme Court refused to hear the case on appeal, and case law in other Circuits is sparse (probably because most, if not all, lawsuits of the type are filed and ajudged in California or Washington) so it's as good as set as stone, at least for the time being.

Modifié par Lukertin, 22 novembre 2011 - 09:05 .

[CenturyCrow]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

http://chronicle.com...Even-if/127461/

Good article and response to those with the 'nothing to hide' comment.

I wonder why EA keeps hiding the answer to why USERs need Origin?

[SalsaDMA]

Lukertin wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
Resale is not copyright infringement, but passing it of and selling it by making copies of it is. You are not the IP holder, you might own the item,but not the intellectual property right. The idea of a lease is established, you could try and argue against it, but you will fail. As such the licensor has rights to controll what is done with the IP, what they can't do is cram in every cluase they can concieve, because it runs the risk of violating national legislation.

That isn't quite right under US law, in Vernor v. Autodesk, 621 F.3d 1102, decided in 2010 by the Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circus, the resale of licensed software does indeed constitute copyright infringement, because the reseller does not have title in the software to begin with (since it is just a license), and therefore the resale of the software is unauthorized under US copyright laws. The US Supreme Court refused to hear the case on appeal, and case law in other Circuits is sparse (probably because most, if not all, lawsuits of the type are filed and ajudged in California or Washington) so it's as good as set as stone, at least for the time being.

Hmm... I can't help but think how this fits with stuff like movies. As far as I am aware, buying a dvd means you can resell it or give/lend it to your friends without any problems. However, playing the dvd for a large enough crowd and you got a legal problem, meaning that we conceptually are talking about a license there as well.

So where's the difference?

Modifié par SalsaDMA, 22 novembre 2011 - 09:20 .

[Abirn]

Lukertin wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
Resale is not copyright infringement, but passing it of and selling it by making copies of it is. You are not the IP holder, you might own the item,but not the intellectual property right. The idea of a lease is established, you could try and argue against it, but you will fail. As such the licensor has rights to controll what is done with the IP, what they can't do is cram in every cluase they can concieve, because it runs the risk of violating national legislation.

That isn't quite right under US law, in Vernor v. Autodesk, 621 F.3d 1102, decided in 2010 by the Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circus, the resale of licensed software does indeed constitute copyright infringement, because the reseller does not have title in the software to begin with (since it is just a license), and therefore the resale of the software is unauthorized under US copyright laws. The US Supreme Court refused to hear the case on appeal, and case law in other Circuits is sparse (probably because most, if not all, lawsuits of the type are filed and ajudged in California or Washington) so it's as good as set as stone, at least for the time being.

I'm torn,  On one hand, even though there may not be a legal distinction, there is a common sense distinction between selling used games to someone and outright copyright infringment.

On the other hand I really really want to see Gamestop get sued out of business.  

[ODST 3]

I'm glad I don't have to know what Origin is.

[Lukertin]

SalsaDMA wrote...
Hmm... I can't help but think how this fits with stuff like movies. As far as I am aware, buying a dvd means you can resell it or give/lend it to your friends without any problems. However, playing the dvd for a large enough crowd and you got a legal problem, meaning that we conceptually are talking about a license there as well.

So where's the difference?

Movie DVDs aren't covered under a EULA, that's the difference. An attempt by the movie industry to include it under a EULA would probably face considerable backlash as the First Sale Doctrine has applied to movies for a very long time that an attempt to render meaningless such an established law would likely be met with stiff resistance at the District Court level as being contrary to public policy and against the spirit of copyright law (my opinion).

I'm torn,  On one hand, even though there may not be a legal distinction, there is a common sense distinction between selling used games to someone and outright copyright infringment.

One thing to remember is, 360 and PS3 games do not fall under an analogous PC-game EULA, because 360 and PS3 games do not have to reproduce a copy on your hard drive in order to play. So it is like a movie (which falls under First Sale Doctrine).

A lot of PC games do not allow for transfer of license from the original purchaser to a 3rd party (e.g., Starcraft 2), but many DO allow it (e.g., Dragon Age: Origins, Fallout 3). So on one hand, you have EULAs which say it is OK for you to resell the game, but other EULAs do not. It would be relatively easy for game resellers like Gamestop and Best Buy to comply with those EULAs.

Modifié par Lukertin, 22 novembre 2011 - 10:47 .

[billy the squid]

Lukertin wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
Resale is not copyright infringement, but passing it of and selling it by making copies of it is. You are not the IP holder, you might own the item,but not the intellectual property right. The idea of a lease is established, you could try and argue against it, but you will fail. As such the licensor has rights to controll what is done with the IP, what they can't do is cram in every cluase they can concieve, because it runs the risk of violating national legislation.

That isn't quite right under US law, in Vernor v. Autodesk, 621 F.3d 1102, decided in 2010 by the Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circus, the resale of licensed software does indeed constitute copyright infringement, because the reseller does not have title in the software to begin with (since it is just a license), and therefore the resale of the software is unauthorized under US copyright laws. The US Supreme Court refused to hear the case on appeal, and case law in other Circuits is sparse (probably because most, if not all, lawsuits of the type are filed and ajudged in California or Washington) so it's as good as set as stone, at least for the time being.

Thank you for correcting me on that, you are correct. I tend to have the bad habit of not re reading my posts after editing them. Thus I get parts of the old secentence left in with the new and it doesn't always make sense or gives inaccurate information as is in this case.

[RoseLegion]

CenturyCrow wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

http://chronicle.com...Even-if/127461/

Good article and response to those with the 'nothing to hide' comment.

I wonder why EA keeps hiding the answer to why USERs need Origin?

Agreed on the links   and to answer your question CenturyCrow can I  direct you to the first line of my sig (kudos points to whoever can site the source btw )

[CenturyCrow]

RoseLegion wrote...
Agreed on the links   and to answer your question CenturyCrow can I  direct you to the first line of my sig (kudos points to whoever can site the source btw )

Yes, I supported TW2 because of the lack of DRM. And I would like to support the creative efforts of the BW people who have worked on the series (well maybe not the multiplayer part ). But Origin and the EULA makes that difficult.

But I really doubt the people at EA (the lawyer and marketing types) that run the corporation understand that. They are more into doing what they can to control everything than actually understand what goes on. There is sort of a 'mass effect' at companies that I've seen (and governments). At some point the execs decide they are too important and move away from the day to day part of the company. Then a large group of 'yes' people gravitates toward the execs. Eventually they become far removed from the workers, the product and the users/customers. In short they become disconnected.

Scott Adam writes about this every day.

Modifié par CenturyCrow, 23 novembre 2011 - 02:56 .

[mcneil_1]

N0-Future wrote...

Dark Pendora wrote...

I pre ordered the CE retail, i will wait till about a month before release for a definite conformation about origin, if its required, cancel pre order, if it isnt then happy me.

I think they will ignore the question untill as close to release date as possible unless we kick up enough fuss and pre-orders take a hit.

I think you are right about them answering the question as close to the release date (They did the same with DA2 (announce the Securom younger brother Cider DRM plan about a week or so before release date) and I believe EA did the same with DS2).
I really hope BW wont say  "we have used the EADM before and that Origin is the same", they said that with Securom and ME1 <_<

Modifié par mcneil_1, 23 novembre 2011 - 05:56 .

[RoseLegion]

CenturyCrow wrote...

Yes, I supported TW2 because of the lack of DRM. And I would like to support the creative efforts of the BW people who have worked on the series (well maybe not the multiplayer part ). But Origin and the EULA makes that difficult.

But I really doubt the people at EA (the lawyer and marketing types) that run the corporation understand that. They are more into doing what they can to control everything than actually understand what goes on. There is sort of a 'mass effect' at companies that I've seen (and governments). At some point the execs decide they are too important and move away from the day to day part of the company. Then a large group of 'yes' people gravitates toward the execs. Eventually they become far removed from the workers, the product and the users/customers. In short they become disconnected.

Scott Adam writes about this every day.

That DRM free status has actually put TW2 at the top of my list of gifts to give my gamer pals.  It feels like a pipe dream but I wish ME3 would join it so I could gift it as widely (or failing that at least not have Origin so I don't have to cancle my CE pre-order)

Here's a link of my own to add to the mix (for those who haven't read up on SOPA and PIPA
http://www.cdt.org/b...en-human-rights

I think you're right that many decision makers get highly insulated from what's really going on with the policies they're making decisions about.  There are so many ways that statistical analysis can become flawed or be miss read and yet often it seems that the limitations of the tool are not reflected in its use (I'd say market research has some questionable aspects).  You certainly do get a lot of 'yes' people (or their effective equivalent) when you stop asking "what would be a good idea" and start asking "how do we implement X, Y, Z".

oh and I'll close out with another quick link
this one regarding the harms data theft can engender
http://cdt.org/data-theft-threat

[RoseLegion]

mcneil_1 wrote...

N0-Future wrote...

Dark Pendora wrote...

I pre ordered the CE retail, i will wait till about a month before release for a definite conformation about origin, if its required, cancel pre order, if it isnt then happy me.

I think they will ignore the question untill as close to release date as possible unless we kick up enough fuss and pre-orders take a hit.

I think you are right about them answering the question as close to the release date (They did the same with DA2 (announce the Securom younger brother Cider DRM plan about a week or so before release date) and I believe EA did the same with DS2).
I really hope BW wont say  "we have used the EADM before and that Origin is the same", they said that with Securom and ME1 <_<

Having used both the EADM and Origin (each for several games) I can say without hesitation that they are not the same.  I just wanted to preemptively point that out (in case anyone was actually wondering ) before anyone official or not tried to issue such statements.  If EADM = Origin in function, effect, and implementation then I would never have opened this thread in the first place.

Of course I sincerely doubt that anyone reading this thread is going to be surprised by the above, and if anyone is it simply demonstrates that they haven't used both services.

[Lumikki]

ODST 3 wrote...

I'm glad I don't have to know what Origin is.

I'm glad I don't have to know what AIDS is.

Does my comment sound stupid? Yes it does, because ignorance and not caring isn't the way to go. Point been person making decission based knowledge, even if it's taste based is okey, can be right or wrong choice. How ever, person deliberately decide to be ignorance as burring they head into sand and sing "la, la la , I don't want to hear or know" is just stupid as hell.

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 novembre 2011 - 07:50 .

[whitey4444]

I've read a fair chunk of this thread and its predecessors, and the only thing that really speaks volumes is the deafening silence from the EA/Bioware camp regarding Origin (remember, they are the same thing, their own words). Have they said anything that I've missed? Or anything at all?

When it first kicked off, I believe there was someone from within the company (forget who) who said that answers to critical questions would be provided shortly. But how many months later (2?), it seems to be nothing more than diversion - give a promise of some comment, ignore it long enough and hope it goes away. Of course another reason could be that the answers provided will be very unpalatable to reasonable PC customers, which I'm beginning to suspect is the main reason we are getting no comment at all.

I'd like to see a questions thread like those that got shut down, where our main concerns/questions (free of vile and hyperbole) could be collated to allow answers to be provided definitively by those in the know in an efficient manner. But I dare not bother trying to do it, given that I doubt any questions will be answered let alone even read by anybody who can answer them before the second coming.

I can appreciate that the people who know the information required are probably not the same ones who are on the forum - but given we are running over a hundred pages on this thread alone, surely there is some mechanism within the company where some questions can be answered about software that, frankly, no fans requested but will now be forced to use?