3140 réponses à ce sujet

[billy the squid]

I think what is copyright and breach thereof is more an legal interpretation based on common law and statutory rights of fair use. Ie: I can make several copies of a game, music and DvDs incase the disc is lost and not be liable of copyright breach due to the inherent exemptions. Hence, it is not illegal until I attemtpt to resell. whilst the downloading is likely breach of copyright, but there has been no legislative will to prevent it or curtail it on an individual level, hence it continues unabated.

However, rarely do companies go for individuals it's simply impractical due to the scale, but the latest legislation in Spain targets distribution sites not the end user. Paticularly the Law of Sustainable Economy. I think that's translated correctly, my Spanish is a little rusty. Whether the legislative will and ensuing legal challanges to the enforcement will actually be effective I don't know.

Yet, in the UK and I believe in France, individuals are almost always targeted under the copyright and patents Acts rather than the distribution system although they are also targeted, but that is a criminal matter rather than one of civil courts. However, form what I've experienced it persists with the authorities and the legislature only choosing to enforce it in cases which excessive breaches are encountered due to simple expediency, as such it continues indeffinately in the UK and EU due to impossibility of enforcement, Spains system is I think simply more lenient towards it than my own.

As to the Origin issue, its not going anywhere and I would emphasis that to everyone. If you think EA will dump Origin you are sorely mistaken. Its not going to happen, it is the polymorphic business model at work, attempting to move into the arena of digital distributor, asking for the removal of Origin is a pipe dream. And in principle I don't have a problem with EA creating their own distribution system.

Several alternatives present themselves to me however.

1)For God's sake make sure the client works when you attach it to the unit sold, there have been problems with it from the start.

2)Opt in clauses for the data collection

3)Clean up the coding, the system seems sloppy and overly intrusive. I mean really do you want to scan my miscellaneous folder and icon files? Surely EA could come up with a better way of gathering information than using the proverbial sledge hammer to do so.

addendum

4) Sort out your PR and tech department, because they do a shoddy job, a clearer explaination of their function in the process might help and what rules they are to abide by. And make the sure the system for forum bans on the EA forums is clear because at the moment it seems completely arbitrary.
 
If you want to compete with steam PR is key, strong arming and murky forum practices which extend to banning accessto games is doing EA no favours. As such people will simply to go elsewhere, there's a lot of options available.

Finally EA, check the naional legislation of the country you intend to distribute to. A multinational corporation, should not have to be told this.

Modifié par billy the squid, 05 décembre 2011 - 06:32 .

[Furtled]

Lumikki wrote...
CarrierIQ, Origin client and facebook are just examples where it's going wrong. Companies has forgoten that consumers rights should respected too. Consumers are getting sick that they civil rights for privacy are been step over by companies. While we lawful consumers understand companies needs to protect they business, no-one should fight agaist injustice by starting them self to breaking laws and do injustice.

So EA, please make Origin Client fully voluntary (optional) product.

I think a lot of this may come down to culture, the companies you mention (EA, Facebook etc.) are American; Europeans are used to privacy by default, a cultural expectation built up over many years of progressive law making in reaction to various events; the majority of Americans take a more relaxed view, especially when it comes to marketing.

US marketing laws are by and large opt-out (so you have to actively opt out to avoid your data being shared and used), European laws are mainly opt-in (companies must prove you have given them explicit permission to contact you), so it's easy to see how people living and working in the American culture can be a little baffled by the European response to things they do.

We marketing types have a role in this too, on the one side marketers see the data and think 'yay! we can use this to deliver more targeted advertising that people will want to see - we're being useful', whilst most customers see themselves being tracked across the web by a pair of shorts they looked at last week and (understandably) get creeped out.

What we marketing types need to realise as an industry is that not everyone is going to see things the same way we do, and we also need to learn to respect people's wishes, whether we agree with them or not. Modern marketing needs to be trust based, if you can't get customers to trust you, if you're not open with people, if you keep hitting them with unexpected things, and if you don't give them a choice (no matter how irrational you may think they're being) then you're going to be screwed in the long term.

Like you said it all boils down to respecting your customers, EA aren't in the best place right now with that (what with the BF3 situation, the disorganised support set-up and the forum ban = game ban issue rearing it's head again), they have a real chance to turn that around by simply moving past the seige mentality that seems to (understandably) be taking root and rethinking their customer strategy.

ME3 would be a perfect opportunity for them to show they're taking steps in the right direction by simply confirming that Origin will be optional before moving on to fix other issues with the client.

Modifié par Furtled, 05 décembre 2011 - 06:42 .

[OperativeX]

Origin has as much right to be here as any other digital distribution client. But we should not be FORCED to use it if we want to play Bioware games. Bioware should be allowed to release the game on as many platforms as they want because without them, there would be no game. And consumers should get a choice of which platform they wish to purchase the game from. Because without the consumer, there is no revenue.

I was quite happy with Steam/D2D/DVD retail/EADM. I chose which platform i wanted and i paid for ME1 and ME2 and ALL of the DLC. But now EA are enforcing Origin-only, i don't want to buy at all. Because out of all of the ways to buy games, Origin/EADM has proved to me time and time again that the service is attrocious and not worthy of my money. Whilst Steam, D2D and Retailers have done me proud. All EA do is keep ppl on a leash and slap them around when they don't get their own way.

[Furtled]

FieryDove wrote...
"we know that 95% of our consumers will pirate the game."
http://kotaku.com/ghost-recon-online/
"We've heard loud and clear that PC gamers are (edited out) about there being no version for them," Mettra told IncGamers. "It's hard because there's so much piracy and so few people are paying for PC games that we have to precisely weigh it up against the cost of making it,"
http://kotaku.com/58...ion-of-the-game
As well as Ubisoft's own forums.
I think it sends a clear picture of what they are doing/will do in the future for pc gaming. At least those that can think for themselves to stay informed.

I was as miffed by those comments as you (and I'm definitely not about to defend Ubisoft's often ridiculous DRM practices), but I think there may have been an element of lost in translation about them; Rock Paper Shotgun did a follow up piece that pointed out Mettra is not a native English speaker and also wasn't the best person to ask - it could simply be a back peddling PR exercise, but there's a possibility it's just wrong guy, wrong answers from someone not representing the company as whole. It happens.

Modifié par Furtled, 05 décembre 2011 - 06:45 .

[billy the squid]

OperativeX wrote...

Origin has as much right to be here as any other digital distribution client. But we should not be FORCED to use it if we want to play Bioware games. Bioware should be allowed to release the game on as many platforms as they want because without them, there would be no game. And consumers should get a choice of which platform they wish to purchase the game from. Because without the consumer, there is no revenue.

I was quite happy with Steam/D2D/DVD retail/EADM. I chose which platform i wanted and i paid for ME1 and ME2 and ALL of the DLC. But now EA are enforcing Origin-only, i don't want to buy at all. Because out of all of the ways to buy games, Origin/EADM has proved to me time and time again that the service is attrocious and not worthy of my money. Whilst Steam, D2D and Retailers have done me proud. All EA do is keep ppl on a leash and slap them around when they don't get their own way.

And? You do not get free choice, that is life. EA acquired BioWare, they are funded by EA and own all IP rights. EADM has been replaced by Origin, most DVDs use Steam as a DRM protection and Steam itself when initally released had some nasty terms which it has since toned down. EA decided not to learn from Steam's mistakes and with typical nuance try and steamroll it through, which has gone down as well as a punch in the face.

Arguing that Origin should be removed is going to fail and fail hard. The company has commited too many resources and potential revenue whilst the opportunity to diversify the business model it too great, short of an unmitigated disaster it's not going anywhere, paticularly with third parties using it as a distribution system as well.
It does however face a well established competitor with almost complete dominance of the digital distribution market, so being paticularly boneheaded about how people banned have access to games removed, bad tech service and a myriad of other problems large and small are going to hamstring Origin.

Eg: Why would I get a third party IP from Origin when I can get it from Steam, sort those problems out and I don't have a problem with Origin as a distribution system.

[OperativeX]

I must admit i am very jaded towards EA after a plethora of bad taste numbers they'd done on ppl over the years.

1) They over-worked the Westwood team until half of them left sickened.
2) EA proceeded to destroy the C&C saga without relent and sealed the final nail in the coffin with that joke of a game C&C4
3) They then went onto add DRM with 5 install limits to games. Which was stupid because pc gamers upgrade a lot, re-install OS's and get virus which again needs an OS re-install in worst cases. Liscenes get used up real fast due to that stuff.
4) Working with their tech support at fixing above problems was like banging your head against a brick wall.
5) They lied to PC gamers and Nvidia when said Crysis 2 was DX11. Instead we got a shoddy DX9 console port full of bugs. EA forced it through the doors before Crytek could finish it properly.
6) They turned Red Alert into WWE and ruined that universe too.
7) EA brings out EADM 2.0 (Origin) packed with bugs and DRM and Spyware.

Give me one good reason why i should trust these chimpanzees

[Cobra5]

Ok so I mentioned already before that I think ME3 will be my last bioware game... but now I think I am sure... the most recent fiasco being that guy who was banned on the BF3 forums because someone else swore at him, and not only did he lose multi- and single-player access to his origin games, but he lost access to non-origin EA games he bought through steam as well. Remember how Dragon Age and Bad Company 2 required you to log into an EA account...?

Plus ever since RockPaperShotgun started their little 'investigation' into it they've been getting tons of reports from users about it, people getting suspended or banned (From all their games, single- and multiplayer) for things like having a trollface as their avatar, quoting a post with a curseword in it (or the word "noob" in one case), or linking to tech support websites linked to in the official EA knowledge base (According to support that was "advertisment", an instant and permanant ban form all games is deserved). These are backed up by EA support messages, not just random accusations.

EA is a huge company with so many forums, I wouldn't say its "acceptable" but at least expected that so many cases would "slip through the cracks", so to speak. But EA Supports complete unwillingness to even review the cases, or even explain them ot the banned customer in so many cases, much less overturn the bans no matter how rediculous it was in the first place... it is unacceptable.

So now I am worried even IF ME3 doesn't take Origin- which it obviously will- my account is STILL in danger in case someone look at one of my posts the wrong way.

[CenturyCrow]

Please people. Keep this topic confined to Origin. If you have a need to argue your opinions on other matters, do it via PM.
Thanks.

[OperativeX]

CenturyCrow wrote...

Please people. Keep this topic confined to Origin. If you have a need to argue your opinions on other matters, do it via PM.
Thanks.

Are you trolling? We ARE talking about Origin. Origin account bans due to forum bans. Origin bugs. Origin spyware. Origin install limits. Are u even reading the posts??

[elitecom]

OperativeX wrote...
5) They lied to PC gamers and Nvidia when said Crysis 2 was DX11. Instead we got a shoddy DX9 console port full of bugs. EA forced it through the doors before Crytek could finish it properly.

Give me one good reason why i should trust these chimpanzees

Actually I think Crytek needs to partly at least take the blame for Crysis 2. They wanted to "embrace" the consoles and focus on them first.

[charmingcharlie]

OperativeX wrote...  Are you trolling? We ARE talking about Origin. Origin account bans due to forum bans. Origin bugs. Origin spyware. Origin install limits. Are u even reading the posts??

I would personally say CenturyCrow has a point the past few pages have been all about "piracy blah blah" now we seem to have moved onto "EA is bad mmmkay".  Now if you guys want to see this topic closed then carry on but accept that when this topic gets closed it will be because you veered way off topic on how EA is the devil incarnate.

Now I happen to agree that Origin is nasty and I refuse to have it installed on my machine.  If Mass Effect 3 is going to be infested with Origin then I will take my money elsewhere.  But having said that even I can see this topic is turning into a general EA hate topic.

Modifié par charmingcharlie, 05 décembre 2011 - 08:39 .

[DRUNK_CANADIAN]

charmingcharlie wrote...

OperativeX wrote...  Are you trolling? We ARE talking about Origin. Origin account bans due to forum bans. Origin bugs. Origin spyware. Origin install limits. Are u even reading the posts??

I would personally say CenturyCrow has a point the past few pages have been all about "piracy blah blah" now we seem to have moved onto "EA is bad mmmkay".  Now if you guys want to see this topic closed then carry on but accept that when this topic gets closed it will be because you veered way off topic on how EA is the devil incarnate.

Now I happen to agree that Origin is nasty and I refuse to have it installed on my machine.  If Mass Effect 3 is going to be infested with Origin then I will take my money elsewhere.  But having said that even I can see this topic is turning into a general EA hate topic.

Can you blame the people for hating EA, the creators of Origin, I mean they have yet to respond or address the large number of concerns people have brought up. And I doubt Bioware would lock this thread regardless, even if it did get off topic, within a short while hundreds would emerge. But EAs track record, specifically with support for their digital distribution platforms is cause enough for discussion, since it is related.

[Nathander Von Eric]

Please remember that we are in Biowares house.

They invited us in and have allowed us to discuss a topic in a way that most likely isn't too pleasant for them.

Please voice your concerns and opinions in a reasonable and respectful manner and stay on topic and we won't have to worry about the thread being closed.

Respect is a good thing but it has to go both ways. They have respected us enough to let the thread stay open. Lets respect them by staying on topic and being polite eh?

Please. Pretty please. With whipped cream and a big cherry on top.

[charmingcharlie]

DRUNK_CANADIAN wrote... Can you blame the people for hating EA, the creators of Origin, I mean they have yet to respond or address the large number of concerns people have brought up. And I doubt Bioware would lock this thread regardless, even if it did get off topic, within a short while hundreds would emerge. But EAs track record, specifically with support for their digital distribution platforms is cause enough for discussion, since it is related.

No I never said people are wrong to hate EA, I don't particularly like the company myself and do my best to avoid any products from such a dodgy company.  But this is NOT the thread for that kind of discusssion and carrying on that kind of discussion will get the only topic we have to display our reluctance to Origin closed.

This topic is meant to be about Origin and it's inclusion in ME 3 it is not meant to be a topic about 101 reasons why you hate EA.

[N0-Future]

OperativeX wrote...

I must admit i am very jaded towards EA after a plethora of bad taste numbers they'd done on ppl over the years.

1) They over-worked the Westwood team until half of them left sickened.
2) EA proceeded to destroy the C&C saga without relent and sealed the final nail in the coffin with that joke of a game C&C4
3) They then went onto add DRM with 5 install limits to games. Which was stupid because pc gamers upgrade a lot, re-install OS's and get virus which again needs an OS re-install in worst cases. Liscenes get used up real fast due to that stuff.
4) Working with their tech support at fixing above problems was like banging your head against a brick wall.
5) They lied to PC gamers and Nvidia when said Crysis 2 was DX11. Instead we got a shoddy DX9 console port full of bugs. EA forced it through the doors before Crytek could finish it properly.
6) They turned Red Alert into WWE and ruined that universe too.
7) EA brings out EADM 2.0 (Origin) packed with bugs and DRM and Spyware.

Give me one good reason why i should trust these chimpanzees

Im With Operative on this...  I trust EA  / Origin about as much as I would a travel agent telling me that Chernobyl is a great place to go on holiday.
I think if EA try an force Origin on us without an op-out option it is going to blow up in their faces.

And we have still to recieve an answer on the Origin question, which I might add was promised nearly 2 months ago...
.

Modifié par N0-Future, 05 décembre 2011 - 09:08 .

[N0-Future]

Nathander Von Eric wrote...

Please remember that we are in Biowares house.

They invited us in and have allowed us to discuss a topic in a way that most likely isn't too pleasant for them.

Please voice your concerns and opinions in a reasonable and respectful manner and stay on topic and we won't have to worry about the thread being closed.

Respect is a good thing but it has to go both ways. They have respected us enough to let the thread stay open. Lets respect them by staying on topic and being polite eh?

Please. Pretty please. With whipped cream and a big cherry on top.

I understand what your saying mate, and I for one have never rippped into BioWare... only EA and Origin.
BioWare happen to be may favorite game developer.

Modifié par N0-Future, 05 décembre 2011 - 09:16 .

[HoosTrax]

N0-Future wrote...

Im With Operative on this...  I trust EA  / Origin about as much as I would a travel agent telling me that Chernobyl is a great place to go on holiday.
I think if EA try an force Origin on us without an op-out option it is going to blow up in their faces.

And we have still to recieve an answer on the Origin question, which I might add was promised nearly 2 months ago...
.

They actually do offer official tours of the Chernobyl area and Pripyat. I looked into the possibility after S.T.A.L.K.E.R., and it sounds kind of interesting (if eerie) and quite safe as long as you do as you're told by the guides :happy:.

But I digress. The lack of information regarding Origin requirements does seem an awful lot like trying to prevent mass cancellation of pre-orders. I can only hope that it's really due to behind the scenes negotiations about giving us more options, but I'm not so confident since they seem hell-bent on forcing Origin down our throats.

Personally, I learned from watching the Rage fiasco not to pre-order games, especially in cases where the publisher seems to be deliberately withholding information, like Rage's embargo on pre-release reviews.

[HoosTrax]

Lumikki wrote...

First, Steam has nothing else to do with this issue, than it's other digital distribution software. Origin client is created because EA wants to compete with Steam client.

I feel like I need to address this. I understand your position as someone who prefers their software as purely DVD format, with no digitial distribution involvement whatsoever.

What you should understand is that for those of us that prefer digital distribution, Steam is not just some "other" DD service interchangeable for all intents and purposes with Origin. Steam has been around for a long time, and with the exception of new EA titles and Blizzard games which use Battle.net, almost all new AAA titles use Steam.

For many of us who prefer DD, we have a very substantial library of games on the Steam platform (almost 200 titles in my case) and being forced to acquire a game tied to another service, without being given an option of owning that game on my platform of choice is undesirable. (And I don't buy the explanation of why some EA games were pulled from Steam.)

It makes just about as much sense as if a major record label were to pull all of their music from iTunes, and tell customers that if you want music recorded by our artists, you must install our new client in addition to the iTunes software you've been using for years, just to have access to that handful of songs from our label.

Bottom line - it's a heavy-handed way of building a customer base at the expense of customer choice.

Modifié par HoosTrax, 05 décembre 2011 - 11:16 .

[EternalPink]

Furtled wrote...

FieryDove wrote...
"we know that 95% of our consumers will pirate the game."
http://kotaku.com/ghost-recon-online/
"We've heard loud and clear that PC gamers are (edited out) about there being no version for them," Mettra told IncGamers. "It's hard because there's so much piracy and so few people are paying for PC games that we have to precisely weigh it up against the cost of making it,"
http://kotaku.com/58...ion-of-the-game
As well as Ubisoft's own forums.
I think it sends a clear picture of what they are doing/will do in the future for pc gaming. At least those that can think for themselves to stay informed.

I was as miffed by those comments as you (and I'm definitely not about to defend Ubisoft's often ridiculous DRM practices), but I think there may have been an element of lost in translation about them; Rock Paper Shotgun did a follow up piece that pointed out Mettra is not a native English speaker and also wasn't the best person to ask - it could simply be a back peddling PR exercise, but there's a possibility it's just wrong guy, wrong answers from someone not representing the company as whole. It happens.

Sorry but i call BS on all of these

audio cassette tape (some of you may need to ask parents about this) was meant to be the death of the music industry

Video cassette tape (again some of you may need to ask parents) was meant to be the death of the film industry

When the internet first came out it was meant to be the death of all creative industries

Yet all of the above industries are alive and kicking and this ignores that every other industry since the dawn of time has had to put up with theft/shrinkage and amazingly they all survived.

So the next time someone says its to defeat those nasty pirates, call BS on it please.

Lastly if Origins was only anti-privacy (ignoring that phone home validation doesn't require a client and is just as effective) then it wouldn't need to collect information on your PC

[Fozee]

I'll do what I can to maybe get an answer on the subject.

[Murphy73]

Fozee wrote...

I'll do what I can to maybe get an answer on the subject.

I hope we get one soon because this question is the only thing that's prevented me from preordering copies for my sister and I. I am not installing Origin on my computer, period.

So fingers crossed that we won't need Origin for physical copies.

[Luvinn]

Same here. I would have ordered a collectors edition, but until I hear that I won't have to install spyware on my system, no dice.

[Nahal The Reckless]

Luvinn wrote...

Same here. I would have ordered a collectors edition, but until I hear that I won't have to install spyware on my system, no dice.

This, pretty much.  We need our questions about Origin and ME3 answered, so we can make an informed decision whether or not to purchase it.

And if the answers we're looking for have been/are being held back because someone thought it would help avoid hurting pre-orders, I'd like to point out that pre-orders are being hurt this way too.  It's speculation as to which would hurt them more, but the silent treatment is certainly less respectful to the customers I think.  To be clear, I'm not actually accusing BioWare and/or EA of doing this, just pointing out a flaw I see in such a plan.

Edit:

Fozee wrote...

I'll do what I can to maybe get an answer on the subject.

Thanks, and good luck.

Modifié par Nahal The Reckless, 06 décembre 2011 - 01:43 .

[CenturyCrow]

Fozee wrote...
I'll do what I can to maybe get an answer on the subject.

See the earlier post in this topic by Anzolino. In Germany it was been brought to EA's attention. There's a link to EA's German Origin page, with a note that it will be reposted in English.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/8498716/115#8780802

So presently, there's no way to tell if this will affect only Germany and the EU or will affect North American and other users.

[Metalrocks]

Murphy73 wrote...

Fozee wrote...

I'll do what I can to maybe get an answer on the subject.

I hope we get one soon because this question is the only thing that's prevented me from preordering copies for my sister and I. I am not installing Origin on my computer, period.

So fingers crossed that we won't need Origin for physical copies.

same here. origin will not be on my PC so that i can play ME3. i would have pre ordered this game ages ago, but origin is stopping me from it.