3140 réponses à ce sujet

[shepskisaac]

Mesina2 wrote...

Then why does every game I have with Steam needs Steam to be on then?

To verify your game(s). Steam is also a form of DRM. But it doesn't data mine your computer without first asking for constent to which you CAN decline and continue using the Steam and your games as before. How much simplier does it has to be said? You can't play BF3 unless you let Origin scan your computer. You CAN play COD: Black Ops (for example) without letting Steam scan your computer.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 30 octobre 2011 - 04:28 .

[anzolino]

LOL, the Steam user refered to the online petition. Now the count is on 4.823 against the BF3 sale in Germany because of Origin. Wow.

[Merci357]

ColorMeSuprised wrote...

You are right. The PC is never truely save if its on the internet. That's why I like to play games WITHOUT using the internet. HOWEVER Origin does not give me a chance to do so. EVENTHOUGH I have bought the game on a disc in my local store.

IF someone wants to buy the game via Origin, fine, do it, but I do NOT want to do that, BUT if I don't buy it via Origin I still NEED it.

To be fair, the same is true with plenty of Steamwork games. Anything published by Valve, Bethesda, Square, THQ, among others, it's a Steamworks game and requires Steam, regardless of retail copy or DD.

That said, Steam is far less intrusive - you can play in offline mode, it asks before it scans your hardware, and Steam does a great deal for the indie developers. I can live with that. Origin, on the other hand, goes to far. I vote with my wallet. I've already a huge backlog of games (thanks to those Steam sales ), and can easily live without EA if Origin is forced on me.

[TheRealJayDee]

ladyvader wrote...

I ask a very simple question.  What will you when they stop making discs and have to download everything?  

Really, come to think of it, there are a lot of nice things to do.

[ColorMeSuprised]

Merci357 wrote...

ColorMeSuprised wrote...

You are right. The PC is never truely save if its on the internet. That's why I like to play games WITHOUT using the internet. HOWEVER Origin does not give me a chance to do so. EVENTHOUGH I have bought the game on a disc in my local store.

IF someone wants to buy the game via Origin, fine, do it, but I do NOT want to do that, BUT if I don't buy it via Origin I still NEED it.

To be fair, the same is true with plenty of Steamwork games. Anything published by Valve, Bethesda, Square, THQ, among others, it's a Steamworks game and requires Steam, regardless of retail copy or DD.

That said, Steam is far less intrusive - you can play in offline mode, it asks before it scans your hardware, and Steam does a great deal for the indie developers. I can live with that. Origin, on the other hand, goes to far. I vote with my wallet. I've already a huge backlog of games (thanks to those Steam sales ), and can easily live without EA if Origin is forced on me.

Yeah. That's why I am not buying these games with constant connection and such. DA2 wanted a one time registration - I can live with that. But I will not subject to using an application I do not need, less if it's spyware.

As I said I don't use Steam but as far as I know it's not mandatory but optional, right? Leaving the obvious differences between Steam and Origin aside, it's still something you freely choose to install to download games, right? When I bought "Dark Messiah of Might and Magic" there was something about Steam, but I did not install it but the game was still running without problems.

Modifié par ColorMeSuprised, 30 octobre 2011 - 04:38 .

[SalsaDMA]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

The tax declarations data in the tax program folder

Well, that's what happens if you keep financial data on a Windows installation, duh.

Origin falls under the 'being plain stupid' category.

According to your fatalistic point of view, doing anything to protect yourself is pointless,

Well, no. Origin is a backdoor with the properties described above that is distributed by EA. EA can't afford to randomly destroy people's computers, so Origin is a lot better than a random backdoor with the aforementioned properties.

Alot better for hackers, indeed.

It then represents a unified avenue of attack to try and exploit for maximum effect.

Why bother with creating Trojans and trying to get them submerged into dubious programs people might or might not be stupid enough to install when you got a free backdoor available to try and exploit with Origin?

I can just imagine the havoc that could be caused by hackers hacking into the network and getting access to trigger sending. Creation of botnets would reach a whole new scale...

[Merci357]

ColorMeSuprised wrote...

As I said I don't use Steam but as far as I know it's not mandatory but optional, right? Leaving the obvious differences between Steam and Origin aside, it's still something you freely choose to install to download games, right?

It is mandatory for Steamwork games. If you want to play, say, Skyrim, or Fallout: New Vegas, or Deus Ex, you have to install Steam. It's needed to activate your game, but after that's done you can set Steam into offline mode and play those games offline. However, you need to reconnect once in a while (after two weeks, I think), but of course, can go into offline mode after that's done. Once in a while you should put Steam online, anyway, to download patches - games on Steam can only be patched via Steam.

[ColorMeSuprised]

Merci357 wrote...

ColorMeSuprised wrote...

As I said I don't use Steam but as far as I know it's not mandatory but optional, right? Leaving the obvious differences between Steam and Origin aside, it's still something you freely choose to install to download games, right?

It is mandatory for Steamwork games. If you want to play, say, Skyrim, or Fallout: New Vegas, or Deus Ex, you have to install Steam. It's needed to activate your game, but after that's done you can set Steam into offline mode and play those games offline. However, you need to reconnect once in a while (after two weeks, I think), but of course, can go into offline mode after that's done. Once in a while you should put Steam online, anyway, to download patches - games on Steam can only be patched via Steam.

And there goes Fallout NV for me. I wanted to buy that game someday but not if I have to use Steam. I'm already skipping Skyrim. This really will end with me never playing a game anymore. Oh well, I still have Vampires Masquerade and such.

Thanks for enlightening me. =)

[billy the squid]

ColorMeSuprised wrote...

Merci357 wrote...

ColorMeSuprised wrote...

You are right. The PC is never truely save if its on the internet. That's why I like to play games WITHOUT using the internet. HOWEVER Origin does not give me a chance to do so. EVENTHOUGH I have bought the game on a disc in my local store.

IF someone wants to buy the game via Origin, fine, do it, but I do NOT want to do that, BUT if I don't buy it via Origin I still NEED it.

To be fair, the same is true with plenty of Steamwork games. Anything published by Valve, Bethesda, Square, THQ, among others, it's a Steamworks game and requires Steam, regardless of retail copy or DD.

That said, Steam is far less intrusive - you can play in offline mode, it asks before it scans your hardware, and Steam does a great deal for the indie developers. I can live with that. Origin, on the other hand, goes to far. I vote with my wallet. I've already a huge backlog of games (thanks to those Steam sales ), and can easily live without EA if Origin is forced on me.

Yeah. That's why I am not buying these games with constant connection and such. DA2 wanted a one time registration - I can live with that. But I will not subject to using an application I do not need, less if it's spyware.

As I said I don't use Steam but as far as I know it's not mandatory but optional, right? Leaving the obvious differences between Steam and Origin aside, it's still something you freely choose to install to download games, right?

Not quite, if you buy a retail game some of them use steam for authentification, One time only I believe, that seems to be the usual approach, the same if you download the game, from steam it still needs to be authenticated via Steam at least once.

Steam does look for registry keys in paticular and if you allow the data to be collected, ie: the optional issue, It collects data from hardware and software which interacts with Steam. It does vary between the developers who use Steam as a distribution service, but it seems to remain an option.

Origin, gives up the vague notion of restrictions entirely, if you install a game via digital download or retail purchase, it scans the HDD, that's it, no opt out, no ifs, no buts. It just does it.
 
(It scans the system before one can accept or decline the EULA, from the little bits I have read, dodgy ground there, as logically permission to scan the HDD is only given upon acceptance of the EULA, not before.)

[Reptillius]

SalsaDMA wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

The tax declarations data in the tax program folder

Well, that's what happens if you keep financial data on a Windows installation, duh.

Origin falls under the 'being plain stupid' category.

According to your fatalistic point of view, doing anything to protect yourself is pointless,

Well, no. Origin is a backdoor with the properties described above that is distributed by EA. EA can't afford to randomly destroy people's computers, so Origin is a lot better than a random backdoor with the aforementioned properties.

Alot better for hackers, indeed.

It then represents a unified avenue of attack to try and exploit for maximum effect.

Why bother with creating Trojans and trying to get them submerged into dubious programs people might or might not be stupid enough to install when you got a free backdoor available to try and exploit with Origin?

I can just imagine the havoc that could be caused by hackers hacking into the network and getting access to trigger sending. Creation of botnets would reach a whole new scale...

Which if you want to take that argument it's reason not to use Steam Either because a couple posters in different threads on this subject have posted that Steam collects the same kind of information if you tell it that it can.

[Lumikki]

ladyvader wrote...

You can do everything possible to keep your PC safe, but in truth it isn't.

True, but you don't have intentionally to make your computer unsafe or give up your privacy.
You self installing spyware in your computer is just stupid.

True, but if that is the only place yhou can download the game, do you not stop gaming?  Disc versions of games will go away in the future.

Playing games (entertaiment) will never go over my computer security or privacy priority. So, yes, if the choise is not to play games or play games while giving up my security and privacy. That isn't even choise, I stop playing games of course.  Also downloading game is not same as installing SPYWARE in your computer.

Modifié par Lumikki, 30 octobre 2011 - 05:07 .

[ColorMeSuprised]

Looks like news received China (don't have the support for the languages on my pc, so I can't check if it's true):
http://www.minorin.c...search&c=Origin

bbs.zhandimi.com/thread-5766-1-1.html

Modifié par ColorMeSuprised, 30 octobre 2011 - 05:01 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

^So wait, only private stuff Origin doesn't look at?

Then WTF is with privacy invasion drama?!

People overreacted. Essentially, from what I can gather, Origin scans your computer to find out what other progams are on it - things like Steam, which I imagine EA is eager to know the consumer base for, or possibly torrent programs. Its pretty shady, but they don't actually go looking through your files.

Or at least, they say they don't. 

At any rate, even scanning and sending back that information about what else is installed on your computer is an outright violation of your privacy. 

[SalsaDMA]

Reptillius wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

The tax declarations data in the tax program folder

Well, that's what happens if you keep financial data on a Windows installation, duh.

Origin falls under the 'being plain stupid' category.

According to your fatalistic point of view, doing anything to protect yourself is pointless,

Well, no. Origin is a backdoor with the properties described above that is distributed by EA. EA can't afford to randomly destroy people's computers, so Origin is a lot better than a random backdoor with the aforementioned properties.

Alot better for hackers, indeed.

It then represents a unified avenue of attack to try and exploit for maximum effect.

Why bother with creating Trojans and trying to get them submerged into dubious programs people might or might not be stupid enough to install when you got a free backdoor available to try and exploit with Origin?

I can just imagine the havoc that could be caused by hackers hacking into the network and getting access to trigger sending. Creation of botnets would reach a whole new scale...

Which if you want to take that argument it's reason not to use Steam Either because a couple posters in different threads on this subject have posted that Steam collects the same kind of information if you tell it that it can.

Is this a discussion about Steam or Origin?

I couldn't care what other products do or don't do, can't or can do as it has no merit in a discussion about Origin does.

Next time you get pulled over and fined for going too fast in your car, tell me if the line "but the red car over there went too fast too, so I shouldn't be fined!" works for you...

[Killjoy Cutter]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

Everything that's in the EULA doesn't have any meaning anyways. It's what the program is doing that matters.

Bingo. 

EULAs are meaningless and powerless on both ends. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Reptillius wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

The tax declarations data in the tax program folder

Well, that's what happens if you keep financial data on a Windows installation, duh.

Origin falls under the 'being plain stupid' category.

According to your fatalistic point of view, doing anything to protect yourself is pointless,

Well, no. Origin is a backdoor with the properties described above that is distributed by EA. EA can't afford to randomly destroy people's computers, so Origin is a lot better than a random backdoor with the aforementioned properties.

Alot better for hackers, indeed.

It then represents a unified avenue of attack to try and exploit for maximum effect.

Why bother with creating Trojans and trying to get them submerged into dubious programs people might or might not be stupid enough to install when you got a free backdoor available to try and exploit with Origin?

I can just imagine the havoc that could be caused by hackers hacking into the network and getting access to trigger sending. Creation of botnets would reach a whole new scale...

Which if you want to take that argument it's reason not to use Steam Either because a couple posters in different threads on this subject have posted that Steam collects the same kind of information if you tell it that it can.

Is this a discussion about Steam or Origin?

I couldn't care what other products do or don't do, can't or can do as it has no merit in a discussion about Origin does.

Next time you get pulled over and fined for going too fast in your car, tell me if the line "but the red car over there went too fast too, so I shouldn't be fined!" works for you...

Indeed -- funny how there seems to be a common belief on the part of Origin's defenders that people opposed to Origin must be using Steam already. 

Me?  I won't install Steam or buy any game that requires it.  Same with Origin. 

[Reptillius]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Reptillius wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

The tax declarations data in the tax program folder

Well, that's what happens if you keep financial data on a Windows installation, duh.

Origin falls under the 'being plain stupid' category.

According to your fatalistic point of view, doing anything to protect yourself is pointless,

Well, no. Origin is a backdoor with the properties described above that is distributed by EA. EA can't afford to randomly destroy people's computers, so Origin is a lot better than a random backdoor with the aforementioned properties.

Alot better for hackers, indeed.

It then represents a unified avenue of attack to try and exploit for maximum effect.

Why bother with creating Trojans and trying to get them submerged into dubious programs people might or might not be stupid enough to install when you got a free backdoor available to try and exploit with Origin?

I can just imagine the havoc that could be caused by hackers hacking into the network and getting access to trigger sending. Creation of botnets would reach a whole new scale...

Which if you want to take that argument it's reason not to use Steam Either because a couple posters in different threads on this subject have posted that Steam collects the same kind of information if you tell it that it can.

Is this a discussion about Steam or Origin?

I couldn't care what other products do or don't do, can't or can do as it has no merit in a discussion about Origin does.

Next time you get pulled over and fined for going too fast in your car, tell me if the line "but the red car over there went too fast too, so I shouldn't be fined!" works for you...

Indeed -- funny how there seems to be a common belief on the part of Origin's defenders that people opposed to Origin must be using Steam already. 

Me?  I won't install Steam or buy any game that requires it.  Same with Origin. 

I didn't assume anything.  There is a reason why if your paying attention there tend to be two cops sitting at places that they are watching for speeders a lot of times. (to catch you and the red car) and they tend to take the car leading the pack because they understand the nature of sheep.  So the red car is likely being pulled over as well. And if not don't be surprised if he gets some kind of ticket in the mail.  Then again. I don't get pulled over for speeding.  Take that as doing it right or not doing it at all at your leisure. i don't really care honestly.

And I didn't assume you have Steam because your Naysaying Origin. I'm being practical purely and pointing out you can't complain about one and ignore everything else like Origin is doing something special.  I've stated many times in these threads that you've got a choice. accept that everybody is doing it to you or don't play games at all.  A few at least state they won't play games anymore. Fine as long as they make an informed choice of what they are really giving up.  The rest I'd just like to see accept the reality of it if they are going to use one already (and many do) the other is doing the same thing to them.

Like for example. If your going to argue that Origin itself is only good for hackers and it's going to somehow be the key program that is going to somehow give hackers wholesale control.  This can be refuted by simply bringing up a fair and valid point that Steam does the same things. if steam does the same things and there is already claims of cracking at the very least of the DRM portion then It would be easy to surmise that somebody has potentially cracked the data-mining side to get the information that Steam collects to already do this and likely to do it without it telling you it's datamining your computer before hand anymore.

Now you could argue that two programs that allow for this to happen is less safe than one.  However one is bad enough and one is the example used to argue against Origin in these above statements. One program that datamines like this clearly isn't enough to give hackers total control or it would have already happened.

It does however include an additional cautionary tale.  Be wary and careful of downloading programs designed to crack either Steam (which the cracks tend to be abnormally large in size for cracks anyway) or Origin, Because it may be cracking much more than the DRM if your not careful.

Also keep in mind that things are a lot less private than a lot of people think.  specially in the day and age of always on internet connections.  This is why powering down devices or severing the internet connection is always safer than leaving them running all the time but various anti-virus and network protection packages at least help protect your information.

[anzolino]

Me? I won't install Steam or buy any game that requires it. Same with Origin.

Same here.

Modifié par anzolino, 30 octobre 2011 - 05:48 .

[SalsaDMA]

Reptillius wrote...

And I didn't assume you have Steam because your Naysaying Origin. I'm being practical purely and pointing out you can't complain about one and ignore everything else like Origin is doing something special.  I've stated many times in these threads that you've got a choice. accept that everybody is doing it to you or don't play games at all.  A few at least state they won't play games anymore. Fine as long as they make an informed choice of what they are really giving up.  The rest I'd just like to see accept the reality of it if they are going to use one already (and many do) the other is doing the same thing to them.

So unless people plan on changing the entire world at the same time, they can't make their opinion heard?

Sorry, but to me that is a loads of bollocks.

[anzolino]

Some funny protest: Protest gegen Origin = Protest against Origin - Don't give Spyware any chance.
The sign label on the wall means: data protection off (top) and on (down).

[Reptillius]

anzolino wrote...

Me? I won't install Steam or buy any game that requires it. Same with Origin.

Same here.

And I applaud you both for making that fair decision quite honestly.

Myself I was forced to go to steam for one game. Keep it disconnected as much as I can because the one game I got is old and won't ever be updated since it's that old and I am feeling particularly nostalgic to the point of going this far to play such a game....  I won't use it for anything new and there is a reason I don't often touch Valve games at this point. And I miss out on a few of the indie developers as well but it was not a decision I made lightly.  I went everywhere else to try and find my game first.

[Sgt Stryker]

anzolino wrote...

Some funny protest: Protest gegen Origin = Protest against Origin - Don't give Spyware any chance.
The sign label on the wall means: data protection off (top) and on (down).

So who's up for Occupy EA?

[DownyTif]

casadechrisso wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

casadechrisso wrote...

Steam does not scan your whole hard drive. Sometimes Steam asks you to participate in a survey, and only if you agree to take part it first shows you a list of WHAT is collected, at which point you can still cancel the whole thing. Origin just scans without your knowledge, more than Steam does, and does whatever it wants - that's the big difference. And yes, it's a HUGE difference.

Did you or anyone else actually check this for themselves?

http://www.gamefaqs....ield-3/60145714

Addendum: Out of curiosity's sake I've also done a quick test of Steam. Aside from accessing some system stuff Steam did not access anything else like the ProgramData folder (except for checking some bin files in Nvidia) or other game's folders.

It also mostly stayed out of other program's folders although it did access a dll in the FileZilla FTP Client folder and a couple of bin files in Nvidia's folder in the ProgramData folder. Keep in mind that I didn't check every little thing Steam did, only the (IMO) obvious stuff.

It also accessed the Start MenuPrograms folder and the Desktop folder but only to perform a basic query which provides the following info: CreationTime, LastAccessTime, LastWriteTime, ChangeTime, FileAttributes (just had RHDNCI for mine)

Within the registry it accessed quite a bit of system and steam/valve stuff. It did not access the keys mentioned in my first post that are commonly used by the system to list the programs installed on the computer.

Now that we've also laid to rest that Steam and Origin are NOT the same thing I think I might actually play a game now  

On the second page, another nice post:

A person on the EA forums had a concern about Steam scanning your software and hardware when accessing help and system info in Steam so I performed another test and posted the results in this forum for those interested (wish I could rename the topic title to include Steam now) and in EA's forums.

I opened up Steam once more with Process Monitor running and found that it did not really access other program's folders and registry settings outside of what I mentioned in my first post. The only other thing I noticed was that it did a basic query on the Program Files (x86)\\Common Files folder but remember that that only reveals the following info: CreationTime, LastAccessTime, LastWriteTime, ChangeTime, FileAttributes (just had DNCI for mine).

Registry access was the same as my first post, however I did also notice that steam accessed various AppCompatFlags\\Layers keys which show compatibility modes to be used for certain executables which is rather odd I must admit. Looks like if you have a program running in compatibility mode then Steam will find out about it although I don't see what use that info would be to them as Steam did not look into the executable files or info related to them any further.

After clearing the results I went into help and system info within Steam and saw that it accessed another bunch of files and registry entries. It didn't access other software's folder's except for Nvidia and it accessed its own folder as well as some system stuff.

Its registry access showed Steam accessing system stuff but it didn't access registry keys for other software except for the following collection of keys to find out what other software was installed on the system:
HKLM\\Software\\Microsoft\\Windows\\CurrentVersion\\Uninstall

When the System Information dialogue was opened and then closed I didn't see an increase in Internet utilization from Steam.

There you go, I can't say with 100% certainty but from what I've seen the following seems apparent:

-Steam will access registry keys which show what compatibility modes have been set for executables (if the exes don't have compatibility info then the program isn't listed in AppCompatFlags\\Layers it seems)

-Steam will only learn about other installed programs when accessing the aforementioned collection of registry keys when you open the system info dialog, but since it doesn't appear to exchange more info with the servers it looks like it doesn't relay the info to them but I can't be certain

-Steam will not delve further into details about the other software that has been installed after checking the aforementioned registry keys

In short if you don't want Steam to learn about other installed programs then don't open its system info dialog


So no, Steam is not like Origin.