3140 réponses à ce sujet

[billy the squid]

Merchant2006 wrote...

^ Yep.
...

To go even further, just take a look at the UK's "Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999", it states that "unfair terms" can amount to:

s.5(1) - A contract(ual) term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if (contrary to the requirement of good faith.... rofl good faith by EA, hahahah), it causes a significant imbalance in the parties rights and obligations arising under the contract.

But.. is this a contract? I mean... that's the big question at times isn't it? The fact that EA states that they can systematically go through your computer but put up their hands in defence saying "oh no, we wouldn't dare" mean that this specific term in the Origin EULA is that it's implied? "Just because they "imply" doesn't mean they will!" says the EA spokesperson, but the fact that the term is there, whether the term says "WE WILL SCAN YOUR PC" or "We COULD scan your PC, but I doubt we will" i.e. an express (clear) or implied (vague) term doesn't matter, it's still there. And the implied term is breaching people's rights.

It's been a year or two since I did my contract law as well, I'd hesitate to use the HR Act, you could, but I thik it would be easier to proceed under national legislation on Unfair Contract Terms etc.
 
I think that it would contitute a contract the mountains of case law deems to support it, I don't think trying to argue that it is a contract or not would get very far, paticularly with the rise of contracts of adhesion. Nor do I see duress actually being a viable use to void the contract.
 
Best chance is probably to force a retreat on the terms be they explicit or implied, arguing on whether the contract is actually a contract or not isn't likely to get very far and is going to be really hard. Off the top of my head I've already given some fairly solid reasoning for the its existence as a contract. So EA's legal department will simply bury an action based on the whether EULA's are contracts or not in litigation and paperwork, not to mention the risk of a wasted costs order, really not nice.

I would believe it is easier to use the legislation that is on your side to your advantage and get the terms declared void. Attacking the EULA at a fundamental level of offer, acceptance, notice etc. Is going to get one sucked into a fruitless arguement with EA  debating points of law which have been very well established for years, its just not practical. As you said Unfair Contract Terms and the other Statutes are the best course at the moment.

Modifié par billy the squid, 05 novembre 2011 - 01:36 .

[civildude892]

I love bioware games. I've played almost all of them and I'm really looking forward to swtor and ME:3. Thankfully swtor will not require origin to play and so I'll be picking it up. ME:3 will require it and with the absolutely horrid job EA has done with battlefield 3, I won't be picking up ME:3. From double charging customers to banning accounts when people try to have their issues resolved, I just don't think I can support any product which requires this platform. Also, it doesn't help that the actual origin program is a slow turd.

[aridor1570]

Has anybody brought this up? if so, notify me.

In a very recent interview we were told you don't have to be online to play ME3, except for the validation of the game, don't you have to be online to actually launch Origin? if this is true then that means you don't need to have Origin launched while playing the game.

I hope somebody understands my point.

Modifié par aridor1570, 05 novembre 2011 - 01:45 .

[MarauderESP]

aridor1570 wrote...

Has anybody brought this up? if so, notify me.

In a very recent interview we were told you don't have to be online to play ME3, except for the validation of the game, don't you have to be online to actually launch Origin? if this is true then that means you don't need to have Origin launched while playing the game.

I hope somebody understands my point.

but ull still need to install the spyware to register it, so tha is the problem here

[Wittand25]

aridor1570 wrote...

Has anybody brought this up? if so, notify me.

In a very recent interview we were told you don't have to be online to play ME3, except for the validation of the game, don't you have to be online to actually launch Origin? if this is true then that means you don't need to have Origin launched while playing the game.

I hope somebody understands my point.

No Origin has an offline mode just like Steam. 

[MarauderESP]

i dont need origin or steam, i buy phisical copys of games

[aridor1570]

Wittand25 wrote...

aridor1570 wrote...

Has anybody brought this up? if so, notify me.

In a very recent interview we were told you don't have to be online to play ME3, except for the validation of the game, don't you have to be online to actually launch Origin? if this is true then that means you don't need to have Origin launched while playing the game.

I hope somebody understands my point.

No Origin has an offline mode just like Steam. 

Didn't notice that before, oh well.

[Ianamus]

MarauderESP wrote...

i dont need origin or steam, i buy phisical copys of games

I'm pretty sure that you still need to download the spyware to play the game, regardless of whether you bought a physical copy. 

Modifié par EJ107, 05 novembre 2011 - 02:31 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Billy, are you citing British law or US law?

[biomar]

EJ107 wrote...

I'm pretty sure that you still need to download the spyware to play the game, regardless of whether you bought a physical copy. 

What's spywarey about it?

Edit: Never mind. I Googled.

Modifié par biomar, 05 novembre 2011 - 04:40 .

[Robhuzz]

EJ107 wrote...

MarauderESP wrote...

i dont need origin or steam, i buy phisical copys of games

I'm pretty sure that you still need to download the spyware to play the game, regardless of whether you bought a physical copy. 

Then get Origin, install ME3, remove Origin and wait for those guys heroes from Razor to release a crack that allows ME3 to be played without Origin. Love the way they handled it with BF3, and it took less than a week for them to do it.

[Lumikki]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Billy, are you citing British law or US law?

It should not matter, because the product is sold in many countries. So, it's not enough to pass one countries laws, it has to pass all the laws in many countries. I doesn't pass the Finland's laws, where I live.. It doesn't pass the Germans laws.

Example from finnish static collection law:

"Provision of information for statistical purposes is voluntary, unless subject to disclosure is required by law.".

Other example from consumer protection law:

"Agreement, "crept in" unreasonable terms and conditions are prohibited."

Point been to make Origin client legal in Finland, they have to allow say yes/no to data collection in Origin client and still able to say yes to games EULA agreement. So, player can play game with voluntary situation to data collection.

Modifié par Lumikki, 05 novembre 2011 - 03:39 .

[Lumikki]

EJ107 wrote...

MarauderESP wrote...

i dont need origin or steam, i buy phisical copys of games

I'm pretty sure that you still need to download the spyware to play the game, regardless of whether you bought a physical copy. 

I don't think so. Usually it's assumption when you buy software as physical copy, it's expected to work as it is. You may upgrade the software if you want, but even that's choise. Point been, the physical copy should have all required software's to work. It may have some driver like related requirements, but it's assumtions that computer allready has them.

Modifié par Lumikki, 05 novembre 2011 - 03:17 .

[SalsaDMA]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

whywhywhywhy wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

To the ones saying: "What's the big deal", here's some things to consider:

We are talking about buying and using games. Games are merely entertainement products, yet EA wants to break our rights of privacy while they sell us these products.

Would you be comfortable with installing spyware just to listen to a song? Obviously you shouldn't as the Sony rootkit scandal should show from history. Yet this is exactly what EA wants to do, just with games instead of songs.

Just think of it. It's a product you don't really need and you are asked to give up basic human rights for it...

I can imagine it transfered to a more 'common' setting very easy, to give a comparison:
-"Can I get the donut from the middle shelf?"
-"Sure. Now if you just give me your wallet so we can complete the transaction."
-"My wallet? What do you mean, I have the money for the donut here..."
-"Sorry mate. I want to look through your wallet and take copies of anything I find interesting in -there."
-"You want to WHAT? I just want to buy a frigging donut fer chris sake..."
-"I know. But in order for me to sell the donut to you I need to look through your wallet."
-"Like hell you need. Here's the money for the donut, now hand it over."
-"I'm sorry, but I need to look through your wallet first before I can hand over the donut."
-"Go to hell..."

A slight tweak is needed for the analogy, you've already paid for the donut but it won't hand over the donut until it looks at your wallet.

Actually it was mostly to show how ludicrous a requirement it is to force customers to install spyware in order to play a game.
I'm pretty sure nobody would accept the terms of letting someone rifle through their wallet to buy a donut, yet some people can't see the problem of letting EA do it for a game.

Because it is not like looking through your wallet, more akin to looking in your shopping bag as you leave the store incase you stole something. Or scanning your backpack or luggage as go through the terminal at an airport after bought plane ticket. While inconvienant and somewhat annoying it is not the same as them looking at my bank statement/credit card details and how much cash I have. [imho]

Enough videos and pictures have been posted on the net about just silly origin is as it goes through things. Most of it is in german as they're the ones paying most attention to the issue.
Origin opening files connected to your mobilephone or tax handling software is close enough to 'rifling through someones wallet' for me to confortably use that line about what origin does.

[Gabey5]

Origin on 360 now...

A closed beta for Mass Effect 3 was mistakenly made public on Xbox Live
today. The beta was available for a short time as a 1.8 GB download and
featured both single-player and multiplayer modes.


The download is no longer available, but some players were able to
access gameplay sections and cutscenes, as well as in-game menus
revealing Origin integration, game options and character selection
screens.

http://xbox360.ign.c.../1211729p1.html

[Michel1986]

Gabey5 wrote...

Origin on 360 now...

A closed beta for Mass Effect 3 was mistakenly made public on Xbox Live
today. The beta was available for a short time as a 1.8 GB download and
featured both single-player and multiplayer modes.


The download is no longer available, but some players were able to
access gameplay sections and cutscenes, as well as in-game menus
revealing Origin integration, game options and character selection
screens.

http://xbox360.ign.c.../1211729p1.html

http://social.biowar...8716/63#8639076

[Merchant2006]

Lumikki wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Billy, are you citing British law or US law?

It should not matter, because the product is sold in many countries. So, it's not enough to pass one countries laws, it has to pass all the laws in many countries. I doesn't pass the Finland's laws, where I live.. It doesn't pass the Germans laws.

Example from finnish static collection law:

"Provision of information for statistical purposes is voluntary, unless subject to disclosure is required by law.".

Other example from consumer protection law:

"Agreement, "crept in" unreasonable terms and conditions are prohibited."

Point been to make Origin client legal in Finland, they have to allow say yes/no to data collection in Origin client and still able to say yes to games EULA agreement. So, player can play game with voluntary situation to data collection.

Billy was right, I mean I was covering a few different potential areas but like he said, it's best to stick to any national legislation. If we do delve into too much as to what the EU or other countries say then it may not tackle the issue correctly, it'd just be a loop the loop session with no end.

Terms have to be reasonable, with care, not imposing or forcing people to have their rights broken and at the same time the fact that EA can take your information... well in the UK it's a breach of the Data Protection Act. Furthermore, Origin in effect is pretty much spyware. It's corporate spyware.

Heh, well "anyone can spy on your computer" but that isn't the point. I remember that a year ago it was not illegal for someone to 'tap' into your phone. Only recently in the News of the World scandal that shoot the media (with the Murd*cks etc) has the law really taken another view. It's funny but it's ever changing.

I just still can't believe EA think they can get away with it. Good on the Germans in doing 'something' about it, it's a shame that I don't think the UK or other countries have taken action.

[Dragoonlordz]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Because it is not like looking through your wallet, more akin to looking in your shopping bag as you leave the store incase you stole something. Or scanning your backpack or luggage as go through the terminal at an airport after bought plane ticket. While inconvienant and somewhat annoying it is not the same as them looking at my bank statement/credit card details and how much cash I have. [imho]

Enough videos and pictures have been posted on the net about just silly origin is as it goes through things. Most of it is in german as they're the ones paying most attention to the issue.
Origin opening files connected to your mobilephone or tax handling software is close enough to 'rifling through someones wallet' for me to confortably use that line about what origin does.

Nonsense. It does not open [all your files] and it certainly does not [copy all the contents of all your files] and uploads them to EA. Thats fallacy. I am neither pro or con for it but making statements like it's like looking through wallet is incorrect imho.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 05 novembre 2011 - 04:19 .

[Mister Mida]

Lumikki wrote...

I don't think so. Usually it's assumption when you buy software as physical copy, it's expected to work as it is. You may upgrade the software if you want, but even that's choise. Point been, the physical copy should have all required software's to work. It may have some driver like related requirements, but it's assumtions that computer allready has them.

I agree, but try telling that to those jerks who made Steam required when you a buy a physical copy of LotR: WitN or TES V: Skyrim.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 05 novembre 2011 - 04:13 .

[Lumikki]

Mister Mida wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

I don't think so. Usually it's assumption when you buy software as physical copy, it's expected to work as it is. You may upgrade the software if you want, but even that's choise. Point been, the physical copy should have all required software's to work. It may have some driver like related requirements, but it's assumtions that computer allready has them.

I agree, but try telling that to those jerks who made Steam required when you a buy a physical copy of LotR: WitN or TES V: Skyrim.

Yeah, it's not so good thing. How ever, that means also the requirement of Steam has to be sayed in the gamebox's requirements text part. So, that customers knows that this software doesn't work without some other software. What I sayed before is assumption what customers usually does, but legaly I don't see any reason preventing other requirements, even other softwares.

Modifié par Lumikki, 05 novembre 2011 - 04:24 .

[SalsaDMA]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Because it is not like looking through your wallet, more akin to looking in your shopping bag as you leave the store incase you stole something. Or scanning your backpack or luggage as go through the terminal at an airport after bought plane ticket. While inconvienant and somewhat annoying it is not the same as them looking at my bank statement/credit card details and how much cash I have. [imho]

Enough videos and pictures have been posted on the net about just silly origin is as it goes through things. Most of it is in german as they're the ones paying most attention to the issue.
Origin opening files connected to your mobilephone or tax handling software is close enough to 'rifling through someones wallet' for me to confortably use that line about what origin does.

Nonsense. It does not open [all your files] and it certainly does not [copy all the contents of all your files] and uploads them to EA. Thats fallacy. I am neither pro or con for it but making statements like it's like looking through wallet is incorrect imho.

Just go look up the info yourself before making such comments.

The data is widely available on the net by now and have been brought up plenty of times. I'm not gonna bother pointing it out anymore as debating evidence that clearly resides on the net is not a debatable point, depsite your attempt to make it one.

Nice to know you got inside knowledge about what origin does or doesn't do, since you so adamantly can tell us what it doesn't do despite evidence on the web pointing to the countrary. Feel free to release the source code to the public if you got access to it so we can peruse it ourself;)

Modifié par SalsaDMA, 05 novembre 2011 - 04:25 .

[Dragoonlordz]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Just go look up the info yourself before making such comments.

The data is widely available on the net by now and have been brought up plenty of times. I'm not gonna bother pointing it out anymore as debating evidence that clearly resides on the net is not a debatable point, depsite your attempt to make it one.

Nice to know you got inside knowledge about what origin does or doesn't do, since you so adamantly can tell us what it doesn't do despite evidence on the web pointing to the countrary. Feel free to release the source code to the public if you got access to it so we can peruse it ourself;)

Link it or you have no proof. Same principle of screenie or didn't happen. It's not my job to do your work for you, you want to counter a point then back it up yourself.  If you don't like how I view it then it's your responsibility to prove/show me I'm wrong, not mine.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 05 novembre 2011 - 04:55 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

The fact that Origin has to be installed at all is the real issue.

[Lumikki]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The fact that Origin has to be installed at all is the real issue.

From customers point. Yes, it's something extra what some (hard to say how many) customer has no use at all. Legal point, it can't be prevented, because I don't think anything prevents companies to create they own platform distripution center software.

I think this picture says it all about those extra stuff, what is pissing off customers : Even if the example is about DVD watching issues.

[Killjoy Cutter]

It can't be prevented, but people can not buy the game, or use things like Sandboxie to cripple Origin's ability to report back to the goons at EA.