3140 réponses à ce sujet

[Raptor2213]

It's sad that when you have a legit copy of the game, you have to DL a pirated copy to get around horrid DRM like SecuROM and Origin.

Why do they even bother with DRM?  I can't think of a single DRM that's actually managed to stop piracy.  All it serves to do is ****** off the customer base.

[didymos1120]

Raptor2213 wrote...

 I can't think of a single DRM that's actually managed to stop piracy.

It probably deters the occasional casual, not-well-informed pirate, or those too paranoid to torrent stuff, but that's about it.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Raptor2213 wrote...

It's sad that when you have a legit copy of the game, you have to DL a pirated copy to get around horrid DRM like SecuROM and Origin.

Why do they even bother with DRM?  I can't think of a single DRM that's actually managed to stop piracy.  All it serves to do is ****** off the customer base.

That's the ultimate question underlying every thread and discussion of the topic. 

Perhaps the corporate stooges who run these companies don't comprehend that, and insist that Something Must Be Done to Stop Theft!

[Raptor2213]

I think that Neil Gaiman has the best take on piracy.

Yes, it's about books, but the theory is sound.  If EA made, say, ME1 free for a month in early 2012, there'd be a HUGE boost to sales of ME2 and ME3.  EA needs to realize that piracy is free advertising, and DRMs that are equivalent to viruses are just another reason to pirate things.

One of the problems with the current theories on piracy is that it's lost revenue.  That's not always true.  Many ppl who download games via ilicit means will end up buying the game later, or they'll show it to a friend, and they'll buy the game, when they wouldn't normaly have done so.  

Modifié par Raptor2213, 18 novembre 2011 - 07:39 .

[The_11thDoctor]

Raptor2213 wrote...

I think that Neil Gaiman has the best take on piracy.

He's a very well thought out man. I watched the clip and he made perfect sense and shared what I always knew. There are tons of things I've seen only due to it being on the net from other countries that arent sold here that I got exposed to thru it being online, got it and seen it as being worth money and went to support it thru importing etc. Later due to support it had the means to afford to export it to other countries with subtitles, dubs etc. The more companies like EA force crap down the paying costumers throats, the more they push us away into not caring about a title or not paying for it or cracking their spyware out of pure frustration. They only waste both our time with spyware and both our money. Only uninformed people get software with spyware shoved in it and even less get software with spyware advertised to come with it.

I want to buy ME3, but if it comes with origin, I wont buy it. I want to play the multiplayer or CO-OP mode, but if that means getting origin, I wont. I still havent signed into wanting a Origin account ever since they started that non sense on DA2 time. I'd love for them to know my stats and what all I did in the game(Bioware), but I refuse to let Origin touch my machine so I never get on Bioware's  EA servers. It's sad, but if they dont change ME3 to be origin free, I wont play it. It's my most looked forward to game period even more than Batman or King of Fighters 13 was and is, but I cant support Bioware if they keep moving in this direction.  EA is going to be the death of you. They may still cover your cost for making games, but your fans wont be there to buy them.

I dont want to be forced to youtube or pirate ME3, DA3 or Dead Space 3 when it launches...
EA despite having diverse games finally is turning back into an evil corp like it used to be... Im sure Mirror's Edge 2 is dead too...

[mcneil_1]

Not to be a pain (I really want this thread kept open (and not locked by  or  or )) but can we stop talking about the shadier side of gaming

[Taciter]

mcneil_1 wrote...
Not to be a pain (I really want this thread kept open (and not locked by  or  or )) but can we stop talking about the shadier side of gaming

DRM was a misguided attempt to overcome software piracy so naturally, 'the shadier side of gaming' is bound to crop up - without the counter argument, there IS no discussion and nothing is gained, the two issues are inextricably linked.

Modifié par Taciter, 18 novembre 2011 - 10:52 .

[Gatt9]

didymos1120 wrote...

Raptor2213 wrote...

 I can't think of a single DRM that's actually managed to stop piracy.

It probably deters the occasional casual, not-well-informed pirate, or those too paranoid to torrent stuff, but that's about it.

Actually,  the point of DRM isn't to stop piracy,  it's to slow it down.  A game sells the most units in it's first 4 weeks,  and the bulk of it's sales occur in the first 8 weeks.  Every week you can slow it down is *huge* right now,  if you can substantially slow it down for 8 weeks,  you saved the game's sales.

A pirate will pirate your game,  no matter what.  It's average-joe who's going to check for a torrent,  and if he can't find it,  then go buy the game.  The point of DRM is to make sure average-joe doesn't find that torrent for the first 8 weeks.

But I don't think that's the point of Origin.  The scanning is highly indicitive of an intention to sue consumers for "Pirated" media,  and to sell the info to other companies.  That's the only reason to scan the harddrive,  and the fact that they brand your computer with a unique identifier bears that out,  because they can identify exactly who has infringed.

There's just no other purpose to scanning your drive's contents,  and the smallish packet sizes reported so far indicate that it's not uploading files,  but uploading CRC's or data from file headers,  both of which could be used to identify pirated vs legitimate media.

[SalsaDMA]

The issue with Origin is only half that it can act as DRM and then only in the essence that it gives EA the ability to withdraw a purchased game without compensation if you say something they don't like.

The data harvesting part has nothing to do with DRM, and neither part (gamebanning-of-legit-users or dataharvesting) that are causing concern for users have anything in them that actually combats piracy, so including piracy in the debate is a detour and can just be used as a smokescreen by EA suits to ignore the real issues.

Modifié par SalsaDMA, 18 novembre 2011 - 11:07 .

[Nahal The Reckless]

Never having really heard much about Origin prior to seeing this thread, I've been doing some research on it, trying to figure out what I think of it.  Like a lot of people seem to feel, I decided I definitely "do not want" Origin on my computer (as it is now at least), but I definitely "do want" ME3.

I'm really going to need some definitive answer about how Origin will or will not be used with ME3 before I can decide whether or not to preorder ME3 -or order it ever for that matter.  So please BioWare, give us some solid Word of God on this.  (Or if they already have, someone kindly point me to it please.)  I'd really like to give BioWare my money and play ME3, I just refuse to unilaterally give up my right to privacy to do it.

If I can find a way to protect my privacy from Origin, I might be able to tolerate it.  Emphasis on might, and even if I can it'll definitely be the only thing I ever buy involving Origin.  I've heard people mention things called sandboxing and virtual machines as ways to potentially keep Origin sequestered from the rest of their PC.  I don't know much about these things though, nor have I found someone saying either of them will definitely protect my privacy without EA suddenly saying "you've broken the EULA, no games for you!" and preventing my from playing my ME3 copy.  So, I'll be doing some more research while waiting with my fingers crossed for news from BioWare.

tl;dr:
Do not want Origin, want privacy, want ME3.

Modifié par Nahal The Reckless, 18 novembre 2011 - 11:53 .

[Lucrece]

Has there been any documentation that the data harvesting they have has been sold to the detriment of users, such as identity theft, downloaded youtube videos resulting in lawsuits, etc?

I know privacy is a concern, but I'm looking for actual repercussions to that violation of privacy.

[Taciter]

SalsaDMA wrote...
...including piracy in the debate is a detour and can just be used as a smokescreen by EA suits to ignore the real issues.

Of course, but would you contest that negating the validity of the claim that 'Piracy can only be defeated by use of draconian DRM's' wouldn't have a bearing on the legitimacy of Origin as a justifiable counter-measure? Whatever peripheral purpose Origin serves, the justification for its mandatory inclusion IS, as you say, to combat piracy. If EA is to be reprimanded for such an unpopular development, it's primary purpose must also be addressed!

[Taciter]

Lucrece wrote...
Has there been any documentation that the data harvesting they have has been sold to the detriment of users, such as identity theft, downloaded youtube videos resulting in lawsuits, etc?

I know privacy is a concern, but I'm looking for actual repercussions to that violation of privacy.

Alot of research has been undertaken and published (predominantly unnofficial I might add) by the German gaming community.. that's as good a starting point as any!

Modifié par Taciter, 18 novembre 2011 - 11:23 .

[SalsaDMA]

Lucrece wrote...

Has there been any documentation that the data harvesting they have has been sold to the detriment of users, such as identity theft, downloaded youtube videos resulting in lawsuits, etc?

I know privacy is a concern, but I'm looking for actual repercussions to that violation of privacy.

Have there ever been any documentation that people charged with "attempted murder" actually killed anyone?

I know murder is a concern, but I'm looking for actual proof that people can predict the future...


You do realize the point here, right?
That aside, when privacy is concerned sometimes it's not even the actual acts that are the biggest culprits. Sometimes the bigger crime against freedom is the fear that you might get targeted by something revealed by spying on you, which not always have to be rightfull acusations as well.

Heck, even the german national party in the 30'ies understood this by making people feel as if they in common were under more surveilance than they actually were, in order to combat 'wrong ideas' before they were uttered, relying on alot on snitching rather than actual spying to get their work done.

I guess their experiences back then are why the germans are so protective of their privacy, as they know all too well what it can lead to when given up...

[SalsaDMA]

Taciter wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...
...including piracy in the debate is a detour and can just be used as a smokescreen by EA suits to ignore the real issues.

Of course, but would you contest that negating the validity of the claim that 'Piracy can only be defeated by use of draconian DRM's' wouldn't have a bearing on the legitimacy of Origin as a justifiable counter-measure? Whatever peripheral purpose Origin serves, the justification for its mandatory inclusion IS, as you say, to combat piracy. If EA is to be reprimanded for such an unpopular development, it's primary purpose must also be addressed!

I was under the impression that Origins required attachment was purely a marketing manouever copied from Valve to try and get their client installed on more systems. Actual DRM concerns as far as combatting piracy only being a secondary or even tiertery concern as far as Origin is concerned.

Origin seems like EA wants to move into a new market (info selling) and figured they could get a good base to do this by installing a trojan on every system one of their games got installed on, when looking purely at amount of systems their games normally get installed on.

There are other, and better, systems already for purely handling DRM concerns, and they already showed with their old download system that digitial distribution isn't a new market for them either, jsut one they haven't been too apt in dealing with.

[Taciter]

SalsaDMA wrote...
I was under the impression that Origins required attachment was purely a marketing manouever copied from Valve to try and get their client installed on more systems. Actual DRM concerns as far as combatting piracy only being a secondary or even tiertery concern as far as Origin is concerned.

Origin seems like EA wants to move into a new market (info selling) and figured they could get a good base to do this by installing a trojan on every system one of their games got installed on, when looking purely at amount of systems their games normally get installed on.

There are other, and better, systems already for purely handling DRM concerns, and they already showed with their old download system that digitial distribution isn't a new market for them either, jsut one they haven't been too apt in dealing with.

I can't argue with your logic - ironically, I completely lost sight of digital publishing angle.. shame on me!

I stand corrected!

[Abirn]

Gatt9 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Raptor2213 wrote...

 I can't think of a single DRM that's actually managed to stop piracy.

It probably deters the occasional casual, not-well-informed pirate, or those too paranoid to torrent stuff, but that's about it.

Actually,  the point of DRM isn't to stop piracy,  it's to slow it down.  A game sells the most units in it's first 4 weeks,  and the bulk of it's sales occur in the first 8 weeks.  Every week you can slow it down is *huge* right now,  if you can substantially slow it down for 8 weeks,  you saved the game's sales.

A pirate will pirate your game,  no matter what.  It's average-joe who's going to check for a torrent,  and if he can't find it,  then go buy the game.  The point of DRM is to make sure average-joe doesn't find that torrent for the first 8 weeks.

But I don't think that's the point of Origin.  The scanning is highly indicitive of an intention to sue consumers for "Pirated" media,  and to sell the info to other companies.  That's the only reason to scan the harddrive,  and the fact that they brand your computer with a unique identifier bears that out,  because they can identify exactly who has infringed.

There's just no other purpose to scanning your drive's contents,  and the smallish packet sizes reported so far indicate that it's not uploading files,  but uploading CRC's or data from file headers,  both of which could be used to identify pirated vs legitimate media.

You hit the nail on the head.  All the evidence points to EA looking to enter into the extortion racket that the music and movie industries have going on.

[Taciter]

Abirn wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...
...There's just no other purpose to scanning your drive's contents,  and the smallish packet sizes reported so far indicate that it's not uploading files,  but uploading CRC's or data from file headers,  both of which could be used to identify pirated vs legitimate media.

You hit the nail on the head.  All the evidence points to EA looking to enter into the extortion racket that the music and movie industries have going on.

Wow, that's pretty Machiavellian... if that's true then I must be incredibly naive!

Modifié par Taciter, 18 novembre 2011 - 11:53 .

[Lucrece]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Lucrece wrote...

Has there been any documentation that the data harvesting they have has been sold to the detriment of users, such as identity theft, downloaded youtube videos resulting in lawsuits, etc?

I know privacy is a concern, but I'm looking for actual repercussions to that violation of privacy.

Have there ever been any documentation that people charged with "attempted murder" actually killed anyone?

I know murder is a concern, but I'm looking for actual proof that people can predict the future...


You do realize the point here, right?
That aside, when privacy is concerned sometimes it's not even the actual acts that are the biggest culprits. Sometimes the bigger crime against freedom is the fear that you might get targeted by something revealed by spying on you, which not always have to be rightfull acusations as well.

Heck, even the german national party in the 30'ies understood this by making people feel as if they in common were under more surveilance than they actually were, in order to combat 'wrong ideas' before they were uttered, relying on alot on snitching rather than actual spying to get their work done.

I guess their experiences back then are why the germans are so protective of their privacy, as they know all too well what it can lead to when given up...

Despite your silly hyperbole, I understand that it's a bad thing. However, some of us are STUCK with using Origin if we want to play (got the digital deluxe version), so when people go claiming of all the catastrophic implications of Origin scanning your PC, we like to see actual damage done to decide whether not purchasing at all is the better alternative to swallowing the bitter pill.

Not just the shadow of possible damage. I want to see people who got slapped with thousands of dollars of compensation for downloading a youtube collection of a Lady Gaga/Insert Artist album. Victims of identity theft.

I know that purchasing and using a car places me on a 1/7 likelihood of dying in a car accident. I can weigh the risks versus the benefits of driving a car. The same can be applied to Origin.

Modifié par Lucrece, 18 novembre 2011 - 11:58 .

[Taciter]

Lucrece wrote...
Despite your silly hyperbole...

A bit harsh Lucrece, I don't think his 'demonstration' was intended to be construed as patronising - I think it was done for dramatic effect. He was merely answering your query as best he could!

[anzolino]

Lucrece wrote...
...some of us are STUCK with using Origin if we want to play...

We all want to play and we all are stuck. This is exactly the reason some of us are still indignant.
In these cases the weight of privacy is heavier than the weight of playing. And it's not about illegal stuff you might have on your PC. It's about privacy. As long as EA don't explains the data transfer and don't stop the access there is only the shadow of possible damage. But this is enough to be outraged.
They have changed the EULA three times now: from "we can do what we want, incl. third parties" till "ok, this was not meant that way". And this last one EA promisses the client wouldn't access the data. But it does!
No shadowed damage? At the first time they were preparing the damage I think. So why do you think EA won't harm you? Because EA tell it? Like the EULA changes? Like protecting databases?

Modifié par anzolino, 19 novembre 2011 - 01:54 .

[CenturyCrow]

Lucrece wrote...
Has there been any documentation that the data harvesting they have has been sold to the detriment of users, such as identity theft, downloaded youtube videos resulting in lawsuits, etc?

I know privacy is a concern, but I'm looking for actual repercussions to that violation of privacy.
--------------
Despite your silly hyperbole, I understand that it's a bad thing. However, some of us are STUCK with using Origin if we want to play (got the digital deluxe version), so when people go claiming of all the catastrophic implications of Origin scanning your PC, we like to see actual damage done to decide whether not purchasing at all is the better alternative to swallowing the bitter pill.

Since ME3 isn't published and in use, there's no way to tell what Origins will do in the future or what the EULA and TOS will state. EA is known to change the EULA/TOS frequently to suit them, not their customers.  Many people in this thread are awaiting 'official' word from BioWare of the status of Origin for all versions of ME3 (digitial, CE, standard) i.e. will it be mandatory for all versions, can it be uninstalled once the game has been registered, etc.

What little is known so far comes from EA/DICE's Battlefield 3 (BF3) and for the PC version. BF3 is multiplayer and you have to have Origins to play. Origin starts scanning a PC immediately from the YouTube videos I've seen.

Links were posted earlier in this thread and other game forums:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/8498716/93#8710249

Some people have claimed that using the freeware version of Sandboxie, Origin can be limited to what you want it to do in order to play the game.

FWIW, I've written a letter of complaint to EA with a copy to BioWare.

From this and other forums, it's quite obvious that many people want to play the ME3 finale, especially those who have played ME and ME2. But ME and ME2 didn't come with spyware--you installed the game, entered your code and played. EA keeps making up new rules that have nothing to do with playing and enjoying the game. At first they were just satisfied with grabbing your money, but they want more.

For me the only solution is to pre-order with Amazon and cancel or purchase once I know for certain what's going to happen. Or to be sure, don't open it until others figure out what's going on with Origin.

Modifié par CenturyCrow, 19 novembre 2011 - 02:07 .

[Gatt9]

Lucrece wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Lucrece wrote...

Has there been any documentation that the data harvesting they have has been sold to the detriment of users, such as identity theft, downloaded youtube videos resulting in lawsuits, etc?

I know privacy is a concern, but I'm looking for actual repercussions to that violation of privacy.

Have there ever been any documentation that people charged with "attempted murder" actually killed anyone?

I know murder is a concern, but I'm looking for actual proof that people can predict the future...


You do realize the point here, right?
That aside, when privacy is concerned sometimes it's not even the actual acts that are the biggest culprits. Sometimes the bigger crime against freedom is the fear that you might get targeted by something revealed by spying on you, which not always have to be rightfull acusations as well.

Heck, even the german national party in the 30'ies understood this by making people feel as if they in common were under more surveilance than they actually were, in order to combat 'wrong ideas' before they were uttered, relying on alot on snitching rather than actual spying to get their work done.

I guess their experiences back then are why the germans are so protective of their privacy, as they know all too well what it can lead to when given up...

Despite your silly hyperbole, I understand that it's a bad thing. However, some of us are STUCK with using Origin if we want to play (got the digital deluxe version), so when people go claiming of all the catastrophic implications of Origin scanning your PC, we like to see actual damage done to decide whether not purchasing at all is the better alternative to swallowing the bitter pill.

Not just the shadow of possible damage. I want to see people who got slapped with thousands of dollars of compensation for downloading a youtube collection of a Lady Gaga/Insert Artist album. Victims of identity theft.

I know that purchasing and using a car places me on a 1/7 likelihood of dying in a car accident. I can weigh the risks versus the benefits of driving a car. The same can be applied to Origin.

The problem with that stance is,  by the time you get the direct evidence you want,  it's too late to prevent it from occurring.

I'm not sure why you're asking for direct evidence of harm though?  It's scanning your drive and folders it does not have any need or right to be scanning.  It's not like there's a plausible reason to be doing it,  there's only one purpose to doing it.

The "Marketing data" thing is an excuse,  Origin doesn't yield valueable marketing information.  NPD reports games sales by units to companies,  harvesting the data from the drive doesn't tell them anything their NPD subscription didn't already tell them.  Monitoring interet activity is equally pointless,  sites already have readily available data on the number of unique hits/day.

There isn't a legitimate purpose to this,  so I'm not sure why you're asking for us to prove direct harm from a program that has no legitimate purpose doing what it's doing.  It's like telling us that you want direct evidence that the OneHalf virus is harmful because you've had it on your system for 4 weeks.  The point you find out it's harmful is when it's encrypted half of your drive a couple months later and prevents you from even booting,  in other words,  the direct evidence is provided when it's too late for you or anyone else to prevent the harm.

[Lucrece]

I DON'T NEED EVIDENCE THAT ORIGIN IS WRONG.

Now that you got that through, the evidence I asked for is evidence that the threat is very likely or has already started to materialize in ways that bears real damage to people who had to use Origin. Do programs like Norton stand to curtail where it gets its claws in? How has the data harvesting turned out concerning clients?

If I choose to buy ME3 for PC, I will have to deal with Origin, no way around it. So the question for evidence is, do PC users stand to suffer such damage that we're better off having to blow $150-$200 on the X-Box, plus $20 on ME2 ($240 if collector's, which by comparison is $10 for the pc digital deluxe edition) so I can get a playthrough save, PLUS the $70 on my ME3 CE? Plus ME2 DLC on Xbox/PS3?

Is getting rid of Origin worth starting from scratch on a console and shelling out ~$300-600 (console CE) bucks?

[CenturyCrow]

Lucrece wrote...
Now that you got that through, the evidence I asked for is evidence that the threat is very likely or has already started to materialize in ways that bears real damage to people who had to use Origin. Do programs like Norton stand to curtail where it gets its claws in? How has the data harvesting turned out concerning clients?

You'd need to check out BF3 forums or other games that use Origin; I can't give you first hand info. AFAIK this has not been noted if a firewall can block it. Blocking it may also block registering the game or interfere with multiplayer. Some people reporting Sandboxing works for BF3; some say no. Doesn't mean they can't change it in time for ME3 or even incorporate the data collection in the game itself. Probably easier via Origin than each game.

Lucrece wrote...
Is getting rid of Origin worth starting from scratch on a console and shelling out ~$300-600 (console CE) bucks?

Expensive route to purchase a console to avoid it. Awkward if you have saved games from ME and Me2 on the PC. I don't know for certain, but I'd guess EA is collecting data from the consoles already, but it's not likely as invasive as a PC install. Your money, your choice. I'd wait to see how this unfolds.

What's next, an EA rootkit?

Modifié par CenturyCrow, 19 novembre 2011 - 04:43 .